ontherocks said:

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but why would you not want to try and help a problem.

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Because I don't think it's a problem. It's been politicized, driven by media and fear.

ontherocks said:

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I get that, nobody owes anybody anything, but that's what separates us from the animals in this world. You should be able to do what you want, but why would you not want to try and help a problem that without your assistance can get others to include your friends and family killed either now or in the future by not taking this thing out right now? That is the argument I am fighting, not that you shouldn't be allowed to do what you want in general. Just because we're allowed to do whatever we want doesn't mean we should, we should be smart enough to discern the difference from government control of our freedoms and helping make the world a safer place. But I digress, we can agree to disagree with one another on this, so be it.

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The argument "it might help others" is really not a very good one. I'm willing to get the vaccine, but I need to be convinced that it's genuinely worthwhile for me, waitwhat?, to get it and it not just a matter of virtue signaling. Nobody has been able to even begin to make that argument.

Even in your reply you're suggesting that because there's a slight chance that one death could be prevented that we have a moral obligation to take the vaccine. I totally reject that. Make a compelling argument that my getting the vaccine will prevent a death and I'll consider it. But that's nearly impossible to do.

Consider this: every time you drive somewhere that isn't absolutely critical, something for pleasure like going to a movie or visiting a friend, you are putting other people at risk. You could make a mistake during your leisurely drive and inadvertently cause the death of an innocent person that was on their way to work or some critical chore.

Suggesting that I have a moral obligation to get the vaccine because without it there is a slim chance that I would pass the virus on to someone that can't get the vaccine for whatever reason is akin to me saying that you should never unnecessarily drive, because each time you do you're putting others at risk of serious injury or death.

It's unprecedented and illogical.

Old Buffalo said:

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ontherocks said:

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but why would you not want to try and help a problem.

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Because I don't think it's a problem. It's been politicized, driven by media and fear.

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Politicization and being mismanaged doesn't negate several hundred thousand dead people as well as others with continuing medical issues. Denying it's a problem at all is asinine.

People die every day. In fact, 2.5m people died of other issues this year.

Let's set up a board for Heart Disease, Cancer, etc.

So Covid deaths equaled 20% of your 2.5m number. Seems pretty significant.

And we never take action or talk about ways for people to prevent heart disease, cancer, diabetes. Also, those aren't contagious.

You continue to make the least compelling arguments of anyone on this thread.

Lol, it's a problem whether you believe it or not. We've had a ton of people die, many who would not have died were in not for covid. Yes people die every day of all sorts of crap, but many of my Friends and family have died unnecessarily and no they weren't obese, well one was, the others weren't. They died because the vaccine wasn't available yet when they got covid. Is it politicized yes, but we should be smarter than to allow that to stop us from being rational. Over 3 million have died, would have been more without a vaccine and that number will most likely reach many millions more as the vaccine can't be rolled out fast enough and because many people don't want to take it. Plus some people are still struggling with long term problems because of the virus. That's a lot of people for me and I'd rather they not die or get sick if I can help it. But again, that's me, to each their own. I did my part.

Who's talking about lockdowns?

I think most would agree that the overall government response to this has been terrible.

Well basically you are anti-vaccine then, I assume you and your family have not been vaccinated ever and you will not vaccinate you're future children if you have more? It's the same argument, if you are against vaccines that's cool but it does keep illnesses around for no reason and "potentially" puts everyone at risk. There is no way to discern the exact number of lives we save by not getting covid or any other disease we are vaccinated against, but if everyone is vaccinated, nobody can get covid or other preventable diseases and nobody dies, that we do know. We are just all agreeing to allow different levels of risk for ourselves and others. Id rather wipe this out so that my grandkids don't have to take another damn yearly shot because we let it continue on forever.

Yes totally. I hate lockdowns, against them. I'm not a covid freak just don't understand the reluctance to get this shot, politics have messed up what would have been in the past a vaccine that everyone took to get over this damn thing.

fig96 said:

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Who's talking about lockdowns?

I think most would agree that the overall government response to this has been terrible.

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In my opinion the problem is more about the overall response to COVID which is what that article addresses. I understand this thread is about vaccine hesitation, but the underlying problem is the response to COVID which has been horribly mismanaged in a number of ways, including now an illogical push towards total vaccine compliance that simply isn't necessary.

ontherocks said:

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Well basically you are anti-vaccine then, I assume you and your family have not been vaccinated ever and you will not vaccinate you're future children if you have more? It's the same argument, if you are against vaccines that's cool but it does keep illnesses around for no reason and "potentially" puts everyone at risk. There is no way to discern the exact number of lives we save by not getting covid or any other disease we are vaccinated against, but if everyone is vaccinated, nobody can get covid or other preventable diseases and nobody dies, that we do know. We are just all agreeing to allow different levels of risk for ourselves and others. Id rather wipe this out so that my grandkids don't have to take another damn yearly shot because we let it continue on forever.

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I'm not at all anti-vaccine and I'm quoting you so you don't have a chance to change what you say.

I have no problem with vaccines overall. I'm relieved that the elder, at risk members of my family got this vaccine. I don't have a problem with the vaccines I was forced to have as a child.

Those make sense. They're logical. If I have a child I would have them vaccinated against those threats.

But I'm a healthy man in my mid 30s. COVID is simply not a threat to me, and the chances are so low that I would pass it on to anyone else simply because I choose not to get it that it isn't worth thinking about.

Don't pass your projections on to me. You're the anti-vax person here. You think you're pro vaccination but you go so far that you drive people away from it.

ontherocks said:

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I'm not driving anyone away, you drove yourself away a long time ago. Just showing you that it's just a vaccine, like all the others we take and give to our kids. We won't always be in our 30s, so you will just take it later and not today when we might be able to rid ourselves of it? I guess.

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Pay me my hourly wage to get it and any downtime for side effects and I'll email you a copy of my vaccine card.

ontherocks said:

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I'm not driving anyone away, you drove yourself away a long time ago. Just showing you that it's just a vaccine, like all the others we take and give to our kids. We won't always be in our 30s, so you will just take it later and not today when we might be able to rid ourselves of it? I guess.

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And I don't take the flu vaccine because I have a healthy fear of needles. They freak me out. I avoid them at all cost and I'm the guy that has to lay down to have my blood taken at the doctor's office. Mock me all you want for that.

Y'all are trying to frame anyone that doesn't want the covid vaccine as "anti vax." I'm no more anti vax against this vaccine as I am any other. But I won't get any shot unless a compelling argument is made for why I need to. I accept a blood draw once a year so my doctor and I can monitor a number of my stats. That's enough for me.

I'm not anti vax and I don't appreciate being branded as much. I'll get the covid and flu vaccines if my health condition changes or I reach an age where it's necessary for me.

waitwhat? said:

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fig96 said:

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Who's talking about lockdowns?

I think most would agree that the overall government response to this has been terrible.

---

In my opinion the problem is more about the overall response to COVID which is what that article addresses. I understand this thread is about vaccine hesitation, but the underlying problem is the response to COVID which has been horribly mismanaged in a number of ways, including now an illogical push towards total vaccine compliance that simply isn't necessary.

---

In the post you quoted I just said the response has been terrible, and I think most people would agree. No one here is arguing otherwise.

The push towards vaccination isn't illogical, however. Even if an individual isn't high risk (and as we've seen even people who don't appear to be high risk can sometimes see severe cases) getting vaccinated helps limit the spread of Covid in the general population. Not everyone can be vaccinated, and the more people that have been vaccinated the more we're protecting those people.

fig96 said:

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waitwhat? said:

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fig96 said:

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Who's talking about lockdowns?

I think most would agree that the overall government response to this has been terrible.

---

In my opinion the problem is more about the overall response to COVID which is what that article addresses. I understand this thread is about vaccine hesitation, but the underlying problem is the response to COVID which has been horribly mismanaged in a number of ways, including now an illogical push towards total vaccine compliance that simply isn't necessary.

---

In the post you quoted I just said the response has been terrible, and I think most people would agree. No one here is arguing otherwise.

The push towards vaccination isn't illogical, however. Even if an individual isn't high risk (and as we've seen even people who don't appear to be high risk can sometimes see severe cases) getting vaccinated helps limit the spread of Covid in the general population. Not everyone can be vaccinated, and the more people that have been vaccinated the more we're protecting those people.

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Illogical was probably the wrong word. I don't have a problem with a push for vaccination against this any more than I have a problem with pushes for vaccination against the seasonal flu.

What I mean is that this push to have absolutely everyone vaccinated, regardless of their individual health and whether or not they already have natural immunity, defies reason. It's over the top. Particularly when they're trying to withhold normal life in exchange for getting vaccinated.

This virus will become like the common cold or the flu. It already is similar in its biology, and in its behavior and effect. So, if we don't push for absolute vaccination for the seasonal flu, then it's beyond reason to do so for this.

Let those at risk get vaccinated, and those that choose to, and let the rest of us make our own choices. We'll pose so little risk to the few people that can't get vaccinated that it simply isn't worth thinking about.

The_Fox said:

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ontherocks said:

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Which part is dumb? The previous poster compared it to driving a car? They're all dumb arguments is my point. But to each their own, whatever. I just don't understand the reluctance to get a vaccine for yourself, your family and everyone else around you for the rest of time. It used to be the hippies that we would make fun of for their anti-vax ways and keeping ancient illnesses around in our communities now it's the common conservative who is pushing the narrative. It's sad how much we have allowed ourselves to become irrational to either extreme. It's now cool to be a hippy and get vaccinated, and if you're on the other side of the political spectrum it's not cool. Like really? You don't think that is completely silly?

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Some of us have already had the virus. We already are protected.

Oh and hit the treadmill and you won't have to worry about the next virus that targets the weak.

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Ok. Fine. I've run 3 marathons this spring. At almost 50, I imagine my normal morning before work would have you puking. So, check. But what is my niece with ALL supposed to do? She's immunocompromised and can't get vaccines, and those she's gotten have been wiped out by chemo. Or what about my disabled son? Due to his CP, he had trouble with core weakness and weak lungs. The chicoms wouldn't even let him go to school because they were afraid he might fall and hurt himself. In America, being disabled doesn't prevent a person from getting an education. I don't know why people wouldn't get a stupid shot to protect people like these.

94chem said:

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The_Fox said:

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ontherocks said:

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Which part is dumb? The previous poster compared it to driving a car? They're all dumb arguments is my point. But to each their own, whatever. I just don't understand the reluctance to get a vaccine for yourself, your family and everyone else around you for the rest of time. It used to be the hippies that we would make fun of for their anti-vax ways and keeping ancient illnesses around in our communities now it's the common conservative who is pushing the narrative. It's sad how much we have allowed ourselves to become irrational to either extreme. It's now cool to be a hippy and get vaccinated, and if you're on the other side of the political spectrum it's not cool. Like really? You don't think that is completely silly?

---

Some of us have already had the virus. We already are protected.

Oh and hit the treadmill and you won't have to worry about the next virus that targets the weak.

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Ok. Fine. I've run 3 marathons this spring. At almost 50, I imagine my normal morning before work would have you puking. So, check. But what is my niece with ALL supposed to do? She's immunocompromised and can't get vaccines, and those she's gotten have been wiped out by chemo. Or what about my disabled son? Due to his CP, he had trouble with core weakness and weak lungs. The chicoms wouldn't even let him go to school because they were afraid he might fall and hurt himself. In America, being disabled doesn't prevent a person from getting an education. I don't know why people wouldn't get a stupid shot to protect people like these.

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Don't take this the wrong way, because I say it with respect and empathy for your situation. We don't do it because we're doing what we feel is best for us. It is your responsibility to do what you feel is best for you and your family.

94chem said:

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The_Fox said:

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ontherocks said:

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Which part is dumb? The previous poster compared it to driving a car? They're all dumb arguments is my point. But to each their own, whatever. I just don't understand the reluctance to get a vaccine for yourself, your family and everyone else around you for the rest of time. It used to be the hippies that we would make fun of for their anti-vax ways and keeping ancient illnesses around in our communities now it's the common conservative who is pushing the narrative. It's sad how much we have allowed ourselves to become irrational to either extreme. It's now cool to be a hippy and get vaccinated, and if you're on the other side of the political spectrum it's not cool. Like really? You don't think that is completely silly?

---

Some of us have already had the virus. We already are protected.

Oh and hit the treadmill and you won't have to worry about the next virus that targets the weak.

---

Ok. Fine. I've run 3 marathons this spring. At almost 50, I imagine my normal morning before work would have you puking. So, check. But what is my niece with ALL supposed to do? She's immunocompromised and can't get vaccines, and those she's gotten have been wiped out by chemo. Or what about my disabled son? Due to his CP, he had trouble with core weakness and weak lungs. The chicoms wouldn't even let him go to school because they were afraid he might fall and hurt himself. In America, being disabled doesn't prevent a person from getting an education. I don't know why people wouldn't get a stupid shot to protect people like these.

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Good for you. You are taking care of yourself.

For those that can't get vaccinated, you still have a great chance of survival. But Mother Nature is a ***** and sometimes the weak gazelle gets eaten. One day both you and I will be the weak gazelle. Such is life.

The_Fox said:

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94chem said:

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The_Fox said:

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ontherocks said:

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Which part is dumb? The previous poster compared it to driving a car? They're all dumb arguments is my point. But to each their own, whatever. I just don't understand the reluctance to get a vaccine for yourself, your family and everyone else around you for the rest of time. It used to be the hippies that we would make fun of for their anti-vax ways and keeping ancient illnesses around in our communities now it's the common conservative who is pushing the narrative. It's sad how much we have allowed ourselves to become irrational to either extreme. It's now cool to be a hippy and get vaccinated, and if you're on the other side of the political spectrum it's not cool. Like really? You don't think that is completely silly?

---

Some of us have already had the virus. We already are protected.

Oh and hit the treadmill and you won't have to worry about the next virus that targets the weak.

---

Ok. Fine. I've run 3 marathons this spring. At almost 50, I imagine my normal morning before work would have you puking. So, check. But what is my niece with ALL supposed to do? She's immunocompromised and can't get vaccines, and those she's gotten have been wiped out by chemo. Or what about my disabled son? Due to his CP, he had trouble with core weakness and weak lungs. The chicoms wouldn't even let him go to school because they were afraid he might fall and hurt himself. In America, being disabled doesn't prevent a person from getting an education. I don't know why people wouldn't get a stupid shot to protect people like these.

---

Good for you. You are taking care of yourself.

For those that can't get vaccinated, you still have a great chance of survival. But Mother Nature is a ***** and sometimes the weak gazelle gets eaten. One day both you and I will be the weak gazelle. Such is life.

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I'm a human being, created in the image of God, and not a gazelle. Hope that helps.

94chem said:

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The_Fox said:

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94chem said:

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The_Fox said:

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ontherocks said:

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Which part is dumb? The previous poster compared it to driving a car? They're all dumb arguments is my point. But to each their own, whatever. I just don't understand the reluctance to get a vaccine for yourself, your family and everyone else around you for the rest of time. It used to be the hippies that we would make fun of for their anti-vax ways and keeping ancient illnesses around in our communities now it's the common conservative who is pushing the narrative. It's sad how much we have allowed ourselves to become irrational to either extreme. It's now cool to be a hippy and get vaccinated, and if you're on the other side of the political spectrum it's not cool. Like really? You don't think that is completely silly?

---

Some of us have already had the virus. We already are protected.

Oh and hit the treadmill and you won't have to worry about the next virus that targets the weak.

---

Ok. Fine. I've run 3 marathons this spring. At almost 50, I imagine my normal morning before work would have you puking. So, check. But what is my niece with ALL supposed to do? She's immunocompromised and can't get vaccines, and those she's gotten have been wiped out by chemo. Or what about my disabled son? Due to his CP, he had trouble with core weakness and weak lungs. The chicoms wouldn't even let him go to school because they were afraid he might fall and hurt himself. In America, being disabled doesn't prevent a person from getting an education. I don't know why people wouldn't get a stupid shot to protect people like these.

---

Good for you. You are taking care of yourself.

For those that can't get vaccinated, you still have a great chance of survival. But Mother Nature is a ***** and sometimes the weak gazelle gets eaten. One day both you and I will be the weak gazelle. Such is life.

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I'm a human being, created in the image of God, and not a gazelle. Hope that helps.

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Again, good for you. But unless Christ returns in short order, you will indeed be a weak gazelle. We should grab a beer in 25 or 30 years and see if I am correct.

In the gazelle world, there is no Ray Charles. No Helen Keller. No FDR. No Steven Hawking. No Ronnie Millsap. No Johnny Stallings. There are no orphans, no nursing homes, no special ed, no handicapped parking, no cancer hospitals, no corrective eyewear...you get the idea. I know that being human adds layers of responsibility, but Darwinism is about the worst alternative I can imagine.

94chem said:

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In the gazelle world, there is no Ray Charles. No Helen Keller. No FDR. No Steven Hawking. No Ronnie Millsap. No Johnny Stallings. There are no orphans, no nursing homes, no special ed, no handicapped parking, no cancer hospitals, no corrective eyewear...you get the idea. I know that being human adds layers of responsibility, but Darwinism is about the worst alternative I can imagine.

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Look I believe human beings are special and created in God's image too. But I have seen a lot people meet a violent end. Much of the world is pretty Darwinist.

Take it easy.

Jbob04 said:

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This graph makes it exceedingly obvious - if you're 70+ or similarly vulnerable due to some obvious medical suppressing immunity - I recommend the choice to take the vaccine

Anyone else taking it obviously needs to be a non-coerced choice since it's clear the benefit to you is incredibly minimal. You won't be harmed my covid anyway.

Mumps, caused by a paramyxovirus, is generally a mild disease with fever, headache and swelling of the salivary glands, but complications such as meningitis (in up to 15% of cases), encephalitis or orchitis may occur. Although the case-fatality rate of mumps encephalitis is low and overall mortality is 1/10 000 cases.

...I don't know of studies looking at measles death underreporting in the United States before the measles vaccine. What we can look at, though, is measles reporting in the most recent large US outbreak, which occurred in 1989-1992 (and was the instigator for the second MMR vaccine recommendation). There were 57,859 cases of measles during this time, and 127 deaths, working out to almost exactly 2 deaths per 1000 cases of measles.

You beat me to it.

Death rates for mandatory vaccinations for school include:
Measles- which you mentioned as 2 in 1000
Mumps- which you mentioned as 1 in 10000
Varicella Zoster (chickenpox)- 1-20 deaths per 100,000 cases depending on age
Rubella- almost no deaths. 1 in 5000 chance of encephalitis, most fully recover
Polio- 2-30% but basically 0% if you start talking about using iron lungs
H Flu- 3-6% under 6 years old, higher over 65 years old, almost no deaths between those ages
Pertussis- 1-4% only in those less than 5 years old. Very rare deaths otherwise
Tetanus- 30%
Diptheria- 5-10%
Pneumococcal pneumonia- 5-7%

So Covid's death rates fall right in line with measles, mumps, varicella zoster, rubells and pertussis, especially when you figure the fact that is more contagious than any of these except for measles and it has a vulnerable population in the elderly.

I think measles is the closest comparison. Extremely contagious, most people will have mild to moderate symptoms like a cold or flu, some people will have severe disease with long term problems, and some people will die. Yet the measles vaccine has been entirely uncontroversial for 50 years and no one yells about "freedom" when it comes to mandatory measles vaccines.

fig96 said:

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So Covid deaths equaled 20% of your 2.5m number. Seems pretty significant.

And we never take action or talk about ways for people to prevent heart disease, cancer, diabetes. Also, those aren't contagious.

You continue to make the least compelling arguments of anyone on this thread.

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I mean, I'm on the side of the vaccine, but lets not overstate this.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7014e1-H.pdf

377k out of 3.3 million. If you are taking all 575k deaths, you'd have do add in the 1.5 or million more this year. It's closer to 10% of all cause deaths since it came to be. Not 20%. Just saying. No reason to embellish the argument on either side.

As for the vaccine, there's 2 arguments I keep seeing:

1) The side of freedom of choice, I shouldn't have to, if the at risk people get it, it doesn't matter by the time it comes to me, I don't know the long term effects of the vaccine, etc. Okay, for the most part, these people are probably right. Statistically, the odds of them causing a death is getting lower by the day, regardless of whether they get the vaccine or not because the at risk population reduces daily But.....

2) I kept coming back to why not? Sure, the odds of me getting and passing covid to someone now, especially that the high risk are getting more and more protected by the day, is approaching zero more and more by the day. But again, why not? I'm all about freedom of choice, but I have still yet to see a reasonable argument not to. Not to mention that even though deaths are nothing, the slight added benefit of long term covid being lowered is just that. Another added benefit. So while #1 I respect. We can't have a two tiered society of vaccine passports, etc., it should be a choice. I have still yet to see a reasonable argument as to why someone makes that choice, and the most reasonable(in their heads) is the lack of long tern data with the vaccines which can easily be countered with the lack of long term data from covid itself, only ironically enough, covid is actually already showing what you fear from the vaccine. Any kind of long term, negative effect.

beerad12man said:

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But again, why not? I'm all about freedom of choice, but I have still yet to see a reasonable argument not to. Not to mention that even though deaths are nothing, the slight added benefit of long term covid being lowered is just that.

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1) Let's not define reasonable to your terms. There are many reasonable arguments not to, including the one you listed within the argument above - "freedom of choice"

2) Long-term COVID is still a myth. Almost all studies include opinions and self reporting, including non-quantifiable effects (i.e., "I sleep worse", "I don't taste as much"). In fact, I think there is one study that close aligns the self reporting LT COVID effects with similar disbursement of mental health issues in the population.

Reasonable might not be the correct term. I guess what I mean to say is convincing. I just can't for the life of me understand not getting it, sans maybe those who have already had it. It's a win win. You reduce the already minor risk of yourself to nothing, and you can potentially help out the community(and before anyone says it, no you do not OWE this to the community, but that's a pretty absurd way to look at it. If it costs you something, that argument might fly). Yes, both are extremely small, but since neither come at a cost, I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't personally do it. It's truly a win win, no brainer type of decision for myself. I get that many have made up their mind regardless and see it differently.

Either way, the newest trend/poll I saw is that it appears 68% of adults are likely going to get it, and that should be more than enough to where it all works out.