Im in this camp. I understand why we did the things we did early on. But now, its time to move past this. The science is pretty clear masks/lockdowns aren't really effective. Its just theater.KidDoc said:I think you are my soul brother/doc-- excellent posts thanks for your input.Infection_Ag11 said:
I disagree with much of what has been implemented in many states and at the national level since last May or so. And the mask debate is effectively a moot point because far too small a percentage of the public wears them correctly to actually assess efficacy.
For example, the claim that we don't know whether the vaccines decrease asymptomatic transmission is just not true. We know from international studies, most notably those in Israel and South Korea, that it dramatically decreases such transmission. And unless we assume this virus behaves distinctly differently from essentially every other RNA virus we've ever discovered, we already knew that would be the case.
Probably my biggest gripe overall has been this sort of intentionally obtuse mindset from many in the scientific community whereby we grant this virus magical powers that make it wholly unique among RNA respiratory viruses. There's just never been any evidence at any point along the way that the response to natural infection or vaccine would be unpredictable or different than to other similar viruses.
I'm "just" a pediatrician but that means I've been wading through the viral soup for the last few decades. I totally understand the initial response to COVID but a year into this we know the at risk population and need to stop the general masking/temp taking theater.
Do we know for sure that the vaccines won't cause issues later in life?
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Last: 3 yr ago by Trucker 96
coolerguy12 said:hamean02 said:
We dont know it for sure but we know it works against the virus that has devastating consequences to certain groups of people that are already proven.
And the science doesnt suggest any long term adverse effects from any reputable sources.
(I'm not a physician)
FIFY in bold
This is another issue I have with the Covid response. Rather than target the response to those at risk we had a blanket response to entire population. DeSantis in Florida sent all their PPE to nursing homes while Cuomo in NY sent all their Covid patients to nursing homes. I'll let you guess which one won an award and had the media fawning over their actions.
Sorry the thread derail, just had to add a correction to your post.
Yep. In no sane world should a kid be taking this vaccine. COVID presents absolutely no risk to 99.99% of school age kids.
The only role of vaccinating children is if the goal is world wide elimination of COVID like we have done for Smallpox and (almost) polio. With the current efficacy of the mRNA vaccines that is a possibility if WHO and others make it a priority.
Aside from high risk kids of course.
Aside from high risk kids of course.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
We do not know, which is why I am not going to get one. If I was 65, it would be a different story. I'd be in a much higher risk group, and if something happened 10 years down the road, what difference would it really make since I had lived majority of my life? Much different for someone in their 30s.mrmill3218 said:
Just a thought experiment:
How do we know the covid vaccines are safe long term? Do we know that there won't be and side effects or health issues months or years from now? I know they are emergency use approved by the FDA, but they're not officially FDA approved from what I understand.
aTm2004 said:We do not know, which is why I am not going to get one. If I was 65, it would be a different story. I'd be in a much higher risk group, and if something happened 10 years down the road, what difference would it really make since I had lived majority of my life? Much different for someone in their 30s.mrmill3218 said:
Just a thought experiment:
How do we know the covid vaccines are safe long term? Do we know that there won't be and side effects or health issues months or years from now? I know they are emergency use approved by the FDA, but they're not officially FDA approved from what I understand.
Certainly your choice but do we know the long term effects of COVID itself. Or do we know the patients in their 30's that have had a major decrease in lung function will this ever resolve? I'm just using your logic for not getting it to saying the same can be said the other way around.
Possibly, but after a year of failed totalitarian steps to 'slow the spread', now I'm supposed to gather what faith I have left into the ultimate and most profitable of all the other bullsh** solutions? It's also logical to be skeptical and feel like we've been sold like cattle.
No, we do not know the long-term effects of COVID, but that's not enough reason for me to go voluntarily be injected with something we also do not know the long-term effects of. If I was a betting man, I'd say the foods that make up the average American's diet will have a much bigger effect on their lives than having COVID. You can pick and choose small percentages to fit your view, and that's OK, but I'm not going to be driven by the exceptions.Irwin M. Fletcher said:aTm2004 said:We do not know, which is why I am not going to get one. If I was 65, it would be a different story. I'd be in a much higher risk group, and if something happened 10 years down the road, what difference would it really make since I had lived majority of my life? Much different for someone in their 30s.mrmill3218 said:
Just a thought experiment:
How do we know the covid vaccines are safe long term? Do we know that there won't be and side effects or health issues months or years from now? I know they are emergency use approved by the FDA, but they're not officially FDA approved from what I understand.
Certainly your choice but do we know the long term effects of COVID itself. Or do we know the patients in their 30's that have had a major decrease in lung function will this ever resolve? I'm just using your logic for not getting it to saying the same can be said the other way around.
Should probably stop carrying a smartphone in your pocket too, since you don't know the long term effects of that.
I'm a classic watch guy who isn't glued to their phone. I also have 3 normal kids and have had the bullets taken out, so at this point, who cares?
Seriously though, instead of just chiming in on page 5 with your opinion, maybe read the whole thread. Multiple doctors here have given a lot of information to the contrary of what you think.
aTm2004 said:
I'm a classic watch guy who isn't glued to their phone. I also have 3 normal kids and have had the bullets taken out, so at this point, who cares?
Normal so far.
Multiple doctors have said masks are effective and multiple doctors have said masks are useless. It's kind of like people have different opinions despite being in the same profession. Crazy how that happens, huh?tomtomdrumdrum said:
Seriously though, instead of just chiming in on page 5 with your opinion, maybe read the whole thread. Multiple doctors here have given a lot of information to the contrary to what you think.
I posted my opinion on a message board. Like it or not, that's what TexAgs is...a place for opinions. I chose not to read all 5 pages, and instead, post my opinion. If it triggered you, go change your mask, yell at the clouds, and kindly go away. Nothing any of the doctors here have to say will change my mind, because I'm doing what I feel is right for me.
aTm2004 said:Multiple doctors have said masks are effective and multiple doctors have said masks are useless. It's kind of like people have different opinions despite being in the same profession. Crazy how that happens, huh?tomtomdrumdrum said:
Seriously though, instead of just chiming in on page 5 with your opinion, maybe read the whole thread. Multiple doctors here have given a lot of information to the contrary to what you think.
I posted my opinion on a message board. Like it or not, that's what TexAgs is...a place for opinions. I chose not to read all 5 pages, and instead, post my opinion. If it triggered you, go change your mask, yell at the clouds, and kindly go away. Nothing any of the doctors here have to say will change my mind, because I'm doing what I feel is right for me.
Pretty great example of the kind of person our medical professionals are having a hard time convincing to get vaccinated.
Since you don't want to read the thread but just want to indulge in an argument, I'll bite for just one more question: what is your goal in posting here?
As someone who has spent an entire career working with children in the hospital, I can tell you long term effects are highly likely. There is no study that can change my mind. I see it all the time. No one will study it properly. You are shamed and ridiculed for asking questions so these conversations between medical professionals are on the DL, but they happen, more frequently than you would imagine.
01agtx said:
As someone who has spent an entire career working with children in the hospital, I can tell you long term effects are highly likely. There is no study that can change my mind. I see it all the time. No one will study it properly. You are shamed and ridiculed for asking questions so these conversations between medical professionals are on the DL, but they happen, more frequently than you would imagine.
So your anecdotal evidence of what you've seen is better evidence than a long rigorous study. That makes zero sense. That's the reason you're ridiculed, I've seen you before. These serious AEs you talk about in childhood vaccines are one in one million doses given. Awful for those that have them, but still much lower than the terrible outcomes that these childhood diseases cause. It's a risk reward analysis which you and that other guy fail to be able to do. It's all emotions with people like you.
Irwin M. Fletcher said:01agtx said:
As someone who has spent an entire career working with children in the hospital, I can tell you long term effects are highly likely. There is no study that can change my mind. I see it all the time. No one will study it properly. You are shamed and ridiculed for asking questions so these conversations between medical professionals are on the DL, but they happen, more frequently than you would imagine.
So your anecdotal evidence of what you've seen is better evidence than a long rigorous study. That makes zero sense. That's the reason you're ridiculed, I've seen you before. These serious AEs you talk about in childhood vaccines are one in one million doses given. Awful for those that have them, but still much lower than the terrible outcomes that these childhood diseases cause. It's a risk reward analysis which you and that other guy fail to be able to do. It's all emotions with people like you.
Dude, stop. I think you are as wrong as you think I am. We aren't going to agree and you know this. I do think you misread my emotion.
No ridicule here but I have seen it happen to others. As I said, that's why the conversations are on the DL.
Can't remember if I posted this before, but again, this technology wasn't thought of a year ago. It has been in development for quite some time. Here's the Moderna CEO over 7 years ago talking about the technology in the vaccine.
And aTm2004 - I didn't see your post, but I'm assuming you're talking about vaccine liability for vaccines. Here's a good video that explains vaccine injury court and liability.
And aTm2004 - I didn't see your post, but I'm assuming you're talking about vaccine liability for vaccines. Here's a good video that explains vaccine injury court and liability.
That guy is saying it's under VICP, but this article says that is not the case. Here's another case of conflicting info regarding COVID that casts more doubts.
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-are-pharmaceutical-companies-immune-covid-19-vaccine-lawsuits-1562793
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-are-pharmaceutical-companies-immune-covid-19-vaccine-lawsuits-1562793
Quote:
Though VICP covers vaccines for diseases including human papillomavirus (HPV), measles, mumps, polio and seasonal influenza, it does not cover any COVID-19 vaccines.
...
HHS Secretary Alex Azar invoked PREP in February in response to the pandemic, declaring COVID-19 to be "a public health emergency warranting liability protections for covered countermeasures."
This means that companies like Moderna and Pfizer are protected from lawsuits regarding their COVID-19 vaccines until 2024.
The Associated Press reported that VICP has paid much more in compensation than CICP has. Only 29 out of 499 people who made claims under CICP received compensation.
Since the late 1980s, VICP has provided $4.4 billion in total compensation, with an average of $570,000 per claim. Since 2005, CICP has provided petitioners, who mostly made claims about the H1N1 swine flu vaccine, $6 million in compensation, with an average of $200,000 per claim. According to the Associated Press, "payments in most death cases are capped at $370,376" for CICP.
VICP allows individuals to make claims within three years of their first symptom. CICP, on the other hand, allows petitioners only one year from the date of vaccination.
CICP doesn't pay fees for lawyers or expert witnesses or provide awards for suffering or damages; VICP does. VICP also permits appeals all the way to the Supreme Court.
In other words, people who make claims about injuries or allergic reactions to either of the COVID-19 vaccines have less time to make their petitions than people who have filed claims for injuries from vaccines related to the measles or the flu. They also are less likely to receive compensation for injuries from COVID-19 vaccines, and if they do receive compensation, it likely will be a smaller amount.
The Ruling
True.
Pharmaceutical companies are protected from liability regarding the COVID-19 vaccines. If someone has an allergic reaction or injury from one of the vaccines, they can petition to receive compensation from the Department of Health and Human Services' (HHS) Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP).
The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP), which also falls under the jurisdiction of HHS, has a better record of providing compensation to people who claim injury from a vaccine than CICP but covers vaccines for diseases such as polio and seasonal influenza, not COVID-19.
He's not talking about the COVID vaccine in that video, he is talking about childhood vaccines only. Go watch it again.
Good video not that it will change 01agtx's mind as he has already made it up. You can't reason with these anti vax people. They don't seem to grasp the negative outcomes of the disease are worse than and more likely than the negative outcomes with vaccines. They just refuse to be reasoned with.
I did watch it. How does the video he posted apply? How is what I just posted inaccurate? Here's a hint...it's not, which validates one of my main reasons for not wanting to get the vaccine. You seem to be fixated on me for some reason rather than what I post. Facts hurt you or something?
You probably did not read the big post at the top titled "Please read before posting" . . . . this board was specifically designed to not be "a place for opinions". This forum was designed to filter out gut feelings and politically motivated screeds and allow posters direct access to qualified medical opinions.Quote:
I posted my opinion on a message board. Like it or not, that's what TexAgs is...a place for opinions. I chose not to read all 5 pages, and instead, post my opinion. If it triggered you, go change your mask, yell at the clouds, and kindly go away. Nothing any of the doctors here have to say will change my mind, because I'm doing what I feel is right for me.
Hence in that post, from the moderators
So don't take it so personally when you viewpoints are taken very seriously here. It was designed for educated medical professionals and those looking to ask them questions rather than argue all night long.Quote:
To be clear: This is not a place to post your opinion as fact or to post information not rooted in clear facts. This is not a place to have political arguments or to detail your opinions about how well or poorly the government is handling the issue. This is not a place to rant about media conspiracies. This is not a place to critique other people for their level of concern or efforts to prepare. There are forums for (some of) those conversations, but they don't belong here.
Again, our goal is to highlight some of the helpful information from doctors, public health experts, and others that is already appearing in other forums and to give our community a specific place to ask questions and get helpful, accurate answers.
[Take a break. -Staff]
aTm2004 said:This sums you up pretty well. Someone who is choosing to not take a vaccine that came to market in less than a year are not "anti vax people." We're doing the same thing your fellow COVIDians have been doing for a year...approaching it cautiously. You talk about the negative outcomes, but you can't grasp that majority of us have either had it or know several people who have had it that doe not have any effects from it.Irwin M. Fletcher said:
Good video not that it will change 01agtx's mind as he has already made it up. You can't reason with these anti vax people. They don't seem to grasp the negative outcomes of the disease are worse than and more likely than the negative outcomes with vaccines. They just refuse to be reasoned with.
You accuse me and others like me for refusing to be reasoned with, yet you're the same thing on the other side of the coin. Pop your head into reality every once in a while and you'll see that the world is just fine and not driven by the small minority.
01agtx is an anti vaxer, he has seen some serious adverse events with kids receiving childhood vaccines which I don't doubt he has, but these events pale in comparison to adverse events of measles, pertussis etc.
Also for the record I totally understand that the likely hood of serious issues with COVID is low, what you fail to grasp is that the serious issues with the Covid vaccine are even lower.
Don't say well we don't know that yet, if 10% of those receiving the vaccine had serious issues that they would not go away it would be out there now; however, we have 10% of COVID survivors that are long haulers and have no lung function, extremely high heart rates with little effort, brain fog and neurological issues. Some are even young as infection ag pointed out he is dealing with them. I did an analysis that says I have probably a .001% chance of having serious issues with this vaccine but maybe a 1% chance of having serious issues from Covid. It's pretty easy decision. You do what you want but the data is not on your side.
And for the billionth time I'm not COVIDian or corona bro, I didn't hunker down, ate out socialized with friends and basically didn't overly worry about Covid because it wasn't worth it, I looked at it and decided that. I did the same when researching the vaccine.
Irwin M. Fletcher said:aTm2004 said:This sums you up pretty well. Someone who is choosing to not take a vaccine that came to market in less than a year are not "anti vax people." We're doing the same thing your fellow COVIDians have been doing for a year...approaching it cautiously. You talk about the negative outcomes, but you can't grasp that majority of us have either had it or know several people who have had it that doe not have any effects from it.Irwin M. Fletcher said:
Good video not that it will change 01agtx's mind as he has already made it up. You can't reason with these anti vax people. They don't seem to grasp the negative outcomes of the disease are worse than and more likely than the negative outcomes with vaccines. They just refuse to be reasoned with.
You accuse me and others like me for refusing to be reasoned with, yet you're the same thing on the other side of the coin. Pop your head into reality every once in a while and you'll see that the world is just fine and not driven by the small minority.
01agtx is an anti vaxer, he has seen some serious adverse events with kids receiving childhood vaccines which I don't doubt he has, but these events pale in comparison to adverse events of measles, pertussis etc.
Also for the record I totally understand that the likely hood of serious issues with COVID is low, what you fail to grasp is that the serious issues with the Covid vaccine are even lower.
Please don't make assumptions about what I have seen and what diseases they compare too. Saying these events "pale in comparison" could not be farther from the truth.
Per the rules of the board, you are not taken seriously because you have no relevant educational background, germane medical knowledge, research experience, etc, etc, etc. and you have not really referenced anything reputable as far as I can tell. Ditto for the the other poster that has an issue with the vaccine because of unnamed, unexplained, and potentially entirely fancfiful "things" he saw while working in a hospital in a capacity that could be unrelated to actual medical care.Quote:
My viewpoint isn't taken seriously because nobody likes to be challenged on their beliefs with the data we have available to us, and when someone does challenge them, the posts are removed, but the post referring to the other poster as "anti science morons" is kept up, which validates the criticism of this particular board.
Windy City Ag said:Per the rules of the board, you are not taken seriously because you have no relevant educational background, germane medical knowledge, research experience, etc, etc, etc. and you have not really referenced anything reputable as far as I can tell. Ditto for the the other poster that has an issue with the vaccine because of unnamed, unexplained, potentially entirely fancfiful "things" he saw while working in a hospital in a capacity I am guessing unrelated to actual medical care.Quote:
My viewpoint isn't taken seriously because nobody likes to be challenged on their beliefs with the data we have available to us, and when someone does challenge them, the posts are removed, but the post referring to the other poster as "anti science morons" is kept up, which validates the criticism of this particular board.
I am an ICU RN.
01agtx said:Irwin M. Fletcher said:aTm2004 said:This sums you up pretty well. Someone who is choosing to not take a vaccine that came to market in less than a year are not "anti vax people." We're doing the same thing your fellow COVIDians have been doing for a year...approaching it cautiously. You talk about the negative outcomes, but you can't grasp that majority of us have either had it or know several people who have had it that doe not have any effects from it.Irwin M. Fletcher said:
Good video not that it will change 01agtx's mind as he has already made it up. You can't reason with these anti vax people. They don't seem to grasp the negative outcomes of the disease are worse than and more likely than the negative outcomes with vaccines. They just refuse to be reasoned with.
You accuse me and others like me for refusing to be reasoned with, yet you're the same thing on the other side of the coin. Pop your head into reality every once in a while and you'll see that the world is just fine and not driven by the small minority.
01agtx is an anti vaxer, he has seen some serious adverse events with kids receiving childhood vaccines which I don't doubt he has, but these events pale in comparison to adverse events of measles, pertussis etc.
Also for the record I totally understand that the likely hood of serious issues with COVID is low, what you fail to grasp is that the serious issues with the Covid vaccine are even lower.
Please don't make assumptions about what I have seen and what diseases they compare too. Saying these events "pale in comparison" could not be farther from the truth.
Just in measles the CFR is 15% and permanent neurological damage happens 25% of the time. One in a million of some serious events seen with childhood vaccines tells me that pales in comparison.
Windy City Ag said:Per the rules of the board, you are not taken seriously because you have no relevant educational background, germane medical knowledge, research experience, etc, etc, etc. and you have not really referenced anything reputable as far as I can tell. Ditto for the the other poster that has an issue with the vaccine because of unnamed, unexplained, and potentially entirely fancfiful "things" he saw while working in a hospital in a capacity that could be unrelated to actual medical care.Quote:
My viewpoint isn't taken seriously because nobody likes to be challenged on their beliefs with the data we have available to us, and when someone does challenge them, the posts are removed, but the post referring to the other poster as "anti science morons" is kept up, which validates the criticism of this particular board.
Look, I'm here to see if any real knowledge of the vaccine exists and reading this thread unbiased. But posts like this really frustrates me and is why this board is mocked. Besides the maybe 2 doctors that might be trying to give real knowledge, the many posters above are giving opinions and mocking others opinions that don't align with theirs. Then they try and say the board rules are set up to justify themselves. Whatever. I wish I can only see the posts by doctors and not have to weed through this crap...
_________________________________________
Spane Bohem
Spane Bohem
Do you know you're coming to the defense of someone that openly said they don't want to read what the doctors on this board have to say? And for those of us that do read what they say, we're supposed to sit back and wait for them to make time to respond to such willful ignorance?
Part of me thinks you're right - engaging just perpetuates the uninformed conversation. But I'd rather point someone to information (i.e. read the thread) than let them shout into the void.
Part of me thinks you're right - engaging just perpetuates the uninformed conversation. But I'd rather point someone to information (i.e. read the thread) than let them shout into the void.
Im not defending anyone. Let the doctors posts and give real info.
I'm out on this. I'll wait for infection Ag to reply to my post and try and use the ignore feature for the first time.
[Ags, We want a sharing of information here and done so in a respectful and courteous manner. Please help us with this goal. - Staff]
I'm out on this. I'll wait for infection Ag to reply to my post and try and use the ignore feature for the first time.
[Ags, We want a sharing of information here and done so in a respectful and courteous manner. Please help us with this goal. - Staff]
Infection_Ag11 said:
I disagree with much of what has been implemented in many states and at the national level since last May or so. And the mask debate is effectively a moot point because far too small a percentage of the public wears them correctly to actually assess efficacy.
For example, the claim that we don't know whether the vaccines decrease asymptomatic transmission is just not true. We know from international studies, most notably those in Israel and South Korea, that it dramatically decreases such transmission. And unless we assume this virus behaves distinctly differently from essentially every other RNA virus we've ever discovered, we already knew that would be the case.
Probably my biggest gripe overall has been this sort of intentionally obtuse mindset from many in the scientific community whereby we grant this virus magical powers that make it wholly unique among RNA respiratory viruses. There's just never been any evidence at any point along the way that the response to natural infection or vaccine would be unpredictable or different than to other similar viruses.
This right here is what's made me want to pull my hair out, especially the last few months since the vaccine was released.
I'm not a doctor, but I am an engineer with working knowledge of microbiology and biochemistry.
As an engineer, I live and die, not by the "science" but by the DATA - specifically the trends in the data (and NOT the outliers).
I understand doctors who treat individual patients being hesitant to use aggregate data. However, doctors and disease specialists who work in public policy have an obligation to look and the data and interpret it in a way that best benefits society as a whole.
I'm so disappointed and frustrated by the extreme narrative that's been pushed under the guise of "if it saves just one life..."
I definitely can see the light at the end of the tunnel with this virus, but I am afraid that the medical community and various government officials have set a very bad precedent for how we handle future situations similar to this.
And after that ridiculous press conference yesterday, I have lost all faith in the CDC. Prior to this, I often gave deference/the benefit of the doubt to doctors and researchers. I have a PhD, so I know what it takes to become an objective expert in your field. Sadly, over the last year, I have begun to question the motives of many people we call "experts" and "professionals".
jpb1999 said:
Im not defending anyone. I'm talking about you. Posters like you. YOU are the problem with this board. Not just the ones you so adamantly mock. Let the doctors posts and give real info.
I'm the problem for telling someone they should read the doctors' posts instead of posting their own opinions. Which is what you're asking for. Cool.
TXTransplant said:Infection_Ag11 said:
I disagree with much of what has been implemented in many states and at the national level since last May or so. And the mask debate is effectively a moot point because far too small a percentage of the public wears them correctly to actually assess efficacy.
For example, the claim that we don't know whether the vaccines decrease asymptomatic transmission is just not true. We know from international studies, most notably those in Israel and South Korea, that it dramatically decreases such transmission. And unless we assume this virus behaves distinctly differently from essentially every other RNA virus we've ever discovered, we already knew that would be the case.
Probably my biggest gripe overall has been this sort of intentionally obtuse mindset from many in the scientific community whereby we grant this virus magical powers that make it wholly unique among RNA respiratory viruses. There's just never been any evidence at any point along the way that the response to natural infection or vaccine would be unpredictable or different than to other similar viruses.
This right here is what's made me want to pull my hair out, especially the last few months since the vaccine was released.
I'm not a doctor, but I am an engineer with working knowledge of microbiology and biochemistry.
As an engineer, I live and die, not by the "science" but by the DATA - specifically the trends in the data (and NOT the outliers).
I understand doctors who treat individual patients being hesitant to use aggregate data. However, doctors and disease specialists who work in public policy have an obligation to look and the data and interpret it in a way that best benefits society as a whole.
I'm so disappointed and frustrated by the extreme narrative that's been pushed under the guise of "if it saves just one life..."
I definitely can see the light at the end of the tunnel with this virus, but I am afraid that the medical community and various government officials have set a very bad precedent for how we handle future situations similar to this.
And after that ridiculous press conference yesterday, I have lost all faith in the CDC. Prior to this, I often gave deference/the benefit of the doubt to doctors and researchers. I have a PhD, so I know what it takes to become an objective expert in your field. Sadly, over the last year, I have begun to question the motives of many people we call "experts" and "professionals".
I totally agree with you as it pertains to the CDC and Fauci etc. That is why I liked getting info from docs here in the field and in my work I have talk to front line physicians daily. That has what helped me form my opinion on Covid itself and what dangers it posed to me (some but fairly low) and the vaccine (incredibly small and highly unlikely). The CDC and those others sensationalized this thing and the media totally picked up on that. Causing some to hunker down in fear and others on here to not trust things that are proven. It's been disappointing to say the least.
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