Obviously pulling off three straight upsets would have helped our numbers so we'd have probably moved up the charts a bit in NCAA Tournament II and been comfortably in, I was being a little hyperbolic with that, but the point remains that there was absolutely way we were getting into the NCAA Tournament.

None.

If that was the talk then it was between folks who have no idea how the NCAA Tournament selections work.

But there is like zero chance because that isn't how the process works. Whether it's fair or not they don't just forgive losses to Fairfield. We had one regular season ranked win (and yes it was an awesome win but still that's it)

I just perused a handful of NIT Bracketology articles (all written after our final two wins to close the season), and I couldn't find one that suggests we had a legitimate shot at that tournament.

They don't forgive you being horrible early in the season because you have a new coach. MAYBE that would be an argument if it were close by the numbers as a tiebreaker, but it wouldn't have been.

Prop Joe doesn't give any credit for the coach of the year thing because he doesn't believe in teams improving over the course of a season or that more time in a system helps. That's all 'excuses' as he puts it.

The insane argument about the NCAA Tournament aside, for me it's this easy:

- We were worse than we should have been to start 2020, but not WAY worse, just worse
- We gelled and improved and ended up about where we'd hoped we'd be. So I call season one a moderate success.
- Last year was an outright disaster for a lot of reasons, many of which were out of the coaches control
- If we come back next year and have a solid bounce back year and at least compete for the tournament then it'll be easy to just forget this season.
- If we absolutely suck next year then we've got problems.

Logan Lee said:

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You aren't weighing options like the committee would have done. Refer to the last post I made about possibly forgiving the HORRIBLE Orlando tournament and weight it more heavily on the final part of the season.

If all of that plays out, there was a chance. I didn't say a GREAT chance. I said a chance. And that was my point.

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Had the SEC Tourney played out by seeding we would have beat a bad Missouri team, a #20 Auburn team that we already beat, and an unranked LSU team.

Zero chance that would have jettisoned us into even a bubble contender.

I guess we can agree to disagree but it's like agreeing to disagree that the earth is round. It's truly a take so bad that it's hard to talk about other takes.

Maybe in the old days when there wasn't as much public pressure on the committee or back when your performance in your last ten games was actually part of the selection criteria there'd have been an outside chance.

But all you really need for a comp is this year's Oregon State. They had some ugly losses in non-conference, but ended up 10-10 in conference. Their computer numbers this year were significantly better than ours last year (they had an average in the 70's), they made a miracle run to their conference championship, they committee could have said they wouldn't take into account the early season because of all of the cancellations and adjusting to the COVID year, but everyone agreed there was still no way they were going to get in unless they beat Colorado in the Pac 12 Championship, which they ultimately did.

Proposition Joe said:

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"SEC Coach of the Year" was a "hey you sucked in non-conference but were competent in conference play" award. You could just as easily frame that as "You had the talent to be competitive in conference so preparation and coaching was what caused you to fail in non-conference".

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All the preseason rankings had us finishing 12th or 13th in conference, and we ended up tied for 6th, so it's a bit disingenuous to say the reason he won the award is because of our terrible non conference play

The disastrous tournament results lowered expectations to rock bottom, but he definitely deserved recognition for the 2nd half turnaround.

bobinator said:

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Prop Joe doesn't give any credit for the coach of the year thing because he doesn't believe in teams improving over the course of a season or that more time in a system helps. That's all 'excuses' as he puts it.

The insane argument about the NCAA Tournament aside, for me it's this easy:

- We were worse than we should have been to start 2020, but not WAY worse, just worse
- We gelled and improved and ended up about where we'd hoped we'd be. So I call season one a moderate success.
- Last year was an outright disaster for a lot of reasons, many of which were out of the coaches control
- If we come back next year and have a solid bounce back year and at least compete for the tournament then it'll be easy to just forget this season.
- If we absolutely suck next year then we've got problems.

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I'm fine giving credit for COY.

What I don't do is somehow re-frame things to make things look significantly better than they were. Playing decent in conference play somehow got twisted to us "playing as good as anyone in the nation at the end of the year!" and "we had a chance to make the tournament!".

We had zero chance to make the tournament as an at-large.

We weren't playing "as good as anyone in the nation" at the end of the year. In our last 2 games yes we knocked off #20 Auburn on the road and beat unranked Arkansas at home. The two games before that we got handled by Kentucky at home and blown out by unranked LSU.

We had a 100+ NET Buzz' first year. It was a bad year. Now, you can say that he improved in conference play and no one will argue that, but winning SEC COY doesn't somehow re-frame the year as a good or event decent year. The losses still happened. It's very similar to the re-framing of Kennedy's first year that we weren't actually supposed to be any good and other coaches just voted us high preseason as a parting shot for leaving the conference.

It's a habit many on this board have -- excuses, excuses, excuses rather than looking at the actual results. And then when we move on from a coach it's "oh yeah we all saw that coming".

I think whether you thought Year 1 was "ok" or "bad", most agreed that we were playing at least competent ball at the end of the year and were excited to see things moving in the positive direction in Year 2. Then we came out of the gate and got dominated by a Big 12 bottom feeder as well as struggling to dispatch mighty Tarleton. So many then shifted the narrative to "oh well yeah COVID didn't let Buzz install his normal preseason routines".

Yeah, no team got to install their normal preseason routines. It's an excuse.

Couple that with the "well who really knows why we seemed to be the only team that couldn't play basketball for the entire month of February?" and anyone that wasn't wearing maroon-colored glasses could tell you that there was some preparation and discipline issues with this team.

Was Buzz a slamdunk hire? Yes. Do I want Buzz here? Yes. Do I think Buzz will improve this team going forward? Yes.

But some of you defending the first two years here as anything other than underwhelming sound like the same bunch that took 4 years to finally figure out that Kennedy wasn't cut out to coach at this level.

It's OK to admit to making a mistake.

For me it's not reframing the whole year as a success, but I think by the end we were "on track" of where I'd hoped Buzz would have us before the season started so that's why I consider it a moderate success. Like a C+ or B-.

But we didn't carry that momentum into the second year.

And you and I have hashed out this season many times that it's not worth going into, but whether the excuses are valid or not will depend on how good we are to start next season. If we're decent it'll be easy to say that not having a normal offseason killed us and now things are back on track, if we suck again then that was just another excuse right?

Some excuses can be legitimate reasons, but sometimes you don't know until later.

I have been saying that. That's why I don't think it's an excuse, I think it's a legitimate reason. Prop Joe thinks it's an excuse, that's what the debate is about.

Here's the distilled down version of what I think:

1 - It's important for Buzz to have some players in place that know what he expects and how he operates. This is why (along with Nebo being hurt for the preseason practices) we started so slow in year one.
2 - Buzz adjusted well over the course of the season as the players learned each other and their roles and by the end of the year the train was headed the right direction heading into the offseason.
3 - Buzz relies a lot on a carefully detailed offseason, which we didn't get this year. This especially hurt our freshmen who basically didn't contribute anything outside of Diarra.
4 - Buzz did not adjust well in-season to the COVID issues. (This isn't concerning for the long-term trajectory of the program because it was a unique situation that we'll hopefully never see again.)
5 - With a normal offseason and a normal season, we'll see some progress from our returning players and at least look like a more cohesive group when next season starts.

But, if 5 doesn't happen, and we're absolutely horrible again to start the season, then 3 loses validity and we've got problems.

Now, to be clear, that doesn't mean we have to be good to start the year. We just can't be horrible.

I'd rather hire a new coach not currently affiliated with the program. I think a fresh set of ideas could provide a boost to our flailing offensive system and whatever it is we do on the defensive end.

Mikeyshooter said:

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I'd rather hire a new coach not currently affiliated with the program. I think a fresh set of ideas could provide a boost to our flailing offensive system and whatever it is we do on the defensive end.

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I would like to see a coach with some ties to DFW. Increase our recruiting presence there even more.

I don't think anyone isn't saying we were not trending upward at the end of the 19-20 season. We were. But that said we weren't making the NCAA without the auto bid. Not a chance. Buzz is a routine guy...I get that as well and this is a one year outlier but under the same exact conditions two programs in the SEC have made great strides and a less of a salary then Buzz.

Do I think that Buzz will greatly improve over the next couple of years ...sure but we now are behind two teams for the foreseeable future. The fact that we are search the portal for it seems all 1500+ names kinda scares me in what direction this program is going. The fact that Flagg left a program at our level and went to Sam speaks volumes as well on a couple of different fronts

Edit DP

Wicked Good Ag said:

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The fact that we are search the portal for it seems all 1500+ names kinda scares me in what direction this program is going.

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I don't get why that would bother you at all. Just because we're being aggressive in reaching out doesn't mean we're actually offering a spot to everyone. If anything for me it's the other way. It shows the staff knows we have some holes and they're working hard to fill them.

A mediocre player that plays a small role is better than an empty roster spot.

What's better, the rumored skill of Cash or alternate-reality-never-left-A&M BCG?

Wicked Good Ag said:

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The fact that we are search the portal for it seems all 1500+ names kinda scares me in what direction this program is going. The fact that Flagg left a program at our level and went to Sam speaks volumes as well on a couple of different fronts

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1) Some teams that has been very aggressive in the portal the last few years; Baylor, Texas Tech, Arkansas, Alabama, Florida. If you aren't aggressive in the portal then you probably aren't doing it right. Even when you are a top 25 team you should be active in the portal trying to upgrade your roster.

2) What does Flagg leaving the program say? I am curious what you mean by "speaks volumes" on couple of fronts. Do you mean it speaks that our talent level this past year was not great? If so, I agree.

Yes that Flagg leaves and decides to go Sam shows the level of talent we actually had since he was a huge minute guy and the fact that a huge minute guy would rather leave the school he has been at for 4 years to go to Sam

as for the portal it is the new recruiting tool but the fact we are in communication with it seems like everyone then it means the kids he recruited before arent good enough, which means another issue entirely


I hope he does well, he has a proven track record but like others sick of the well wait

"TJ Starks is amazing he can carry us"...gone a few weeks into Buzz tenure

"Cashius is the shooter we are needing...just wait and see" ...hmm

"JJ Chandler will change this entire program"...barely played, but at least more than Cash

it is an endless cycle in our program no matter who is in charge of it

Hard to give your post any credibility with the Chandler part.

Wicked Good Ag said:

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Yes that Flagg leaves and decides to go Sam shows the level of talent we actually had since he was a huge minute guy and the fact that a huge minute guy would rather leave the school he has been at for 4 years to go to Sam

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You sure your fact is a fact?

So you are going to fault Buzz for Starks and his family being upset TJ got arrested and suspended? TJ who also got suspended during BK tenure