HotardRat said:
Star rankings are even more meaningless in basketball than in football. All about coaching.
Evidence from Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina. Kansas, etc. says otherwise.
Starks update?
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Last: 5 yr ago by Aston04
Evidence from Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina. Kansas, etc. says otherwise.
Per numbers, BK's class (high school national rank):
100
128
144
250
Our class under Buzz:
131
146
149
293
298
476
and a 3 star juco
100
128
144
250
Our class under Buzz:
131
146
149
293
298
476
and a 3 star juco
Gap said:
Our class was in the top 25 after the early signing period and up until the time Kennedy was released.
What is your source? I'm referencing national sites like numbers and the other national recruiting site. I don't think there is an honest person who would tell us Buzz's class he brought here was higher ranked than BK's. We have just been told they are Buzz's guys. That is fine but let's be honest about it.
247 class calculator
But who cares where it was ranked during early signing period and who cares what it was the day he was fired. All the guys personally asked to leave.... prior to Buzz's hiring. So Kennedy did not leave Buzz a great class or good class or any class at all.
No they asked to be released to consider their options while our new coach considered his options. He could have recruited them back and told them how they would fit and he decided not to recruit basically any of them except Wheeler for a bit. Then, we were told they didn't fit his system. I guess some what like the guy he decided to not have in for an official visit this Fall because he didn't want to recruit him as vigorously as it was going to take.wacarnolds said:
All the guys personally asked to leave.... prior to Buzz's hiring. So Kennedy did not leave Buzz a great class or good class or any class at all.
Yet 1,2,3,4 in BK's class were all ranked higher than the comparable 1,2,3,4 in Buzz's. Your numbers aren't adding up unless you are just getting bonus points for recruits 5,6,7.wacarnolds said:Gap said:
Our class was in the top 25 after the early signing period and up until the time Kennedy was released.
What is your source? I'm referencing national sites like numbers and the other national recruiting site. I don't think there is an honest person who would tell us Buzz's class he brought here was higher ranked than BK's. We have just been told they are Buzz's guys. That is fine but let's be honest about it.
247 class calculator
Gap star rankings do not matter in the tournament. Go look at last years final four. I'll take Buzz's recruiting over Kennedy's any day. Buzz can coach.
If only Kennedy could've been kept.
Andre Gordon may turn out to be a better basketball player and have a better career than Savhir Wheeler.
We haven't even seen the highest ranked of Buzz's recruits (McNeilly) play yet.
Aku was a very nice post player pickup that schools like Arkansas, Baylor, and LSU were trying to get.
Jackson was a good pickup out of JUCO. Miller was a nice looking forward prospect.
I personally don't see some glaring difference in quality between Buzz's recruits and Kennedy's recruits.
The primary issue with this team right now is 3 scholarship guards are either now injured in walking boots or transferring (Gordon, McNeilly, & Starks). And this past week for practices Buzz didn't even have Chandler (wisdom teeth) available. Plus now Miller is nicked up. Few college basketball rosters are able to withstand losing that many scholarship players.
We haven't even seen the highest ranked of Buzz's recruits (McNeilly) play yet.
Aku was a very nice post player pickup that schools like Arkansas, Baylor, and LSU were trying to get.
Jackson was a good pickup out of JUCO. Miller was a nice looking forward prospect.
I personally don't see some glaring difference in quality between Buzz's recruits and Kennedy's recruits.
The primary issue with this team right now is 3 scholarship guards are either now injured in walking boots or transferring (Gordon, McNeilly, & Starks). And this past week for practices Buzz didn't even have Chandler (wisdom teeth) available. Plus now Miller is nicked up. Few college basketball rosters are able to withstand losing that many scholarship players.
Gap said:Yet 1,2,3,4 in BK's class were all ranked higher than the comparable 1,2,3,4 in Buzz's. Your numbers aren't adding up unless you are just getting bonus points for recruits 5,6,7.wacarnolds said:Gap said:
Our class was in the top 25 after the early signing period and up until the time Kennedy was released.
What is your source? I'm referencing national sites like numbers and the other national recruiting site. I don't think there is an honest person who would tell us Buzz's class he brought here was higher ranked than BK's. We have just been told they are Buzz's guys. That is fine but let's be honest about it.
247 class calculator
Put the players in yourself and tell me what you get. Or just keep spouting nonsense.
Gap said:No they asked to be released to consider their options while our new coach considered his options. He could have recruited them back and told them how they would fit and he decided not to recruit basically any of them except Wheeler for a bit. Then, we were told they didn't fit his system. I guess some what like the guy he decided to not have in for an official visit this Fall because he didn't want to recruit him as vigorously as it was going to take.wacarnolds said:
All the guys personally asked to leave.... prior to Buzz's hiring. So Kennedy did not leave Buzz a great class or good class or any class at all.
Me: They asked to be released.
You: No, they asked to be released.
Great talk!
The reality for Gap is this is all about Wheeler. If he was on this team the 70 hoops board posts from Gap in the last 2.5 weeks would be 7 posts. This isnt about any of the other 3 recruits we 'lost' or any of the 6 we picked up. It is 100% about Wheeler.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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Caruso, House. Williams, Jones !!!HotardRat said:LawHall88 said:Buzz basically cleaned house, including the staff and supporting positions. With Starks leaving, we're down to 4 scholarship holdovers (Nebo, Chandler, Mitchell, Flagg) plus a couple walkons who will play. Are they weak, soft, whatever?Double Diamond said:
Wrong Kennedy created a weak culture chalk full of soft play and excuse making. Buzz won't put up with that.
Outside of Gilder, sure. They were "raised" by BK's system. They may not be "weak" or "soft", but what they are is "not very good
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
I'm not going to second guess a coach who lost a 5/7 point guard. Just simply not going to. Buzz has said he doesn't beg recruits to come. And I think this is a fine idea. Wheeler isn't going to move the needle much if any. Have a much better prospect coming in next season.
House and Williams were more Stansbury recruits. House was for sure the bag man on that one. But good to see Big Jim still yelling about his boy Kennedy.
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Buzz said he doesn't beg for anything !Gap said:No they asked to be released to consider their options while our new coach considered his options. He could have recruited them back and told them how they would fit and he decided not to recruit basically any of them except Wheeler for a bit. Then, we were told they didn't fit his system. I guess some what like the guy he decided to not have in for an official visit this Fall because he didn't want to recruit him as vigorously as it was going to take.wacarnolds said:
All the guys personally asked to leave.... prior to Buzz's hiring. So Kennedy did not leave Buzz a great class or good class or any class at all.
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
Big Jim why do you yell so much?
wacarnolds said:Gap said:Yet 1,2,3,4 in BK's class were all ranked higher than the comparable 1,2,3,4 in Buzz's. Your numbers aren't adding up unless you are just getting bonus points for recruits 5,6,7.wacarnolds said:Gap said:
Our class was in the top 25 after the early signing period and up until the time Kennedy was released.
What is your source? I'm referencing national sites like numbers and the other national recruiting site. I don't think there is an honest person who would tell us Buzz's class he brought here was higher ranked than BK's. We have just been told they are Buzz's guys. That is fine but let's be honest about it.
247 class calculator
Put the players in yourself and tell me what you get. Or just keep spouting nonsense.
Which of my numbers is nonsense? I posted their exact ratings. Glad you are picking up some points for us in a "class calculator" for guys like Bakari Simmons who never went to school here.
Gap you're spitting hairs over sub 100 players.
expresswrittenconsent said:
The reality for Gap is this is all about Wheeler. If he was on this team the 70 hoops board posts from Gap in the last 2.5 weeks would be 7 posts. This isnt about any of the other 3 recruits we 'lost' or any of the 6 we picked up. It is 100% about Wheeler.
I like talent. I like character. We turned a lot of that away apparently so we could bottom out. It was absolutely unnecessary and you'll get and empty Reed and now talk of a 3 to 4 year rebuilding process as a result. That isn't a great deal for our fans when Buzz's average time at a school is 5.5 years (or just 4 if you consider the New Orleans job). I hope we pick up our talent acquisition. Diarra is a great start and is apparently your PG of the future. I bet we are very active in the transfer market after this year picking up at least 2 players. I can't imagine Buzz is planning the lengthy turn around many here are expecting. It just isn't necessary in college basketball.
Gap said:expresswrittenconsent said:
The reality for Gap is this is all about Wheeler. If he was on this team the 70 hoops board posts from Gap in the last 2.5 weeks would be 7 posts. This isnt about any of the other 3 recruits we 'lost' or any of the 6 we picked up. It is 100% about Wheeler.
I like talent. I like character. We turned a lot of that away apparently so we could bottom out. It was absolutely unnecessary and you'll get and empty Reed and now talk of a 3 to 4 year rebuilding process as a result. That isn't a great deal for our fans when Buzz's average time at a school is 5.5 years (or just 4 if you consider the New Orleans job). I hope we pick up our talent acquisition. Diarra is a great start and is apparently your PG of the future. I bet we are very active in the transfer market after this year picking up at least 2 players. I can't imagine Buzz is planning the lengthy turn around many here are expecting. It just isn't necessary in college basketball.
I really don't understand why you're on this crusade, especially this early. Can we at least see McNeilly and a roster a little closer to full strength before we revert back to Unhappy Aggie Mode?
Double Diamond said:
Gap you're spitting hairs over sub 100 players.
Perhaps you are right. The discussion started with the comment that BK didn't have a strong class last year. I was just arguing the facts didn't back that up from their ratings to where they eventually enrolled. I leave the topic alone now. There is nothing left to be said.
I'm hoping we get McNeilly and Gordon back soon and we don't look as bad as everyone is expecting this year.
gig them said:Gap said:expresswrittenconsent said:
The reality for Gap is this is all about Wheeler. If he was on this team the 70 hoops board posts from Gap in the last 2.5 weeks would be 7 posts. This isnt about any of the other 3 recruits we 'lost' or any of the 6 we picked up. It is 100% about Wheeler.
I like talent. I like character. We turned a lot of that away apparently so we could bottom out. It was absolutely unnecessary and you'll get and empty Reed and now talk of a 3 to 4 year rebuilding process as a result. That isn't a great deal for our fans when Buzz's average time at a school is 5.5 years (or just 4 if you consider the New Orleans job). I hope we pick up our talent acquisition. Diarra is a great start and is apparently your PG of the future. I bet we are very active in the transfer market after this year picking up at least 2 players. I can't imagine Buzz is planning the lengthy turn around many here are expecting. It just isn't necessary in college basketball.
I really don't understand why you're on this crusade, especially this early. Can we at least see McNeilly and a roster a little closer to full strength before we revert back to Unhappy Aggie Mode?
Agreed.
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It's to make a point !Double Diamond said:
Big Jim why do you yell so much ?
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
Lol there is zero evidence talent was turned away to bottom out! None zero no evidence. Buzz wants to win now. All these guys were all 100% looking elsewhere prior to the hire. The record would be just the same if Wheeler were here.
This is basketball. It's not a 3/4 year rebuild lol stop being so dramatic Gap.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:Caruso, House. Williams, Jones !!!HotardRat said:LawHall88 said:Buzz basically cleaned house, including the staff and supporting positions. With Starks leaving, we're down to 4 scholarship holdovers (Nebo, Chandler, Mitchell, Flagg) plus a couple walkons who will play. Are they weak, soft, whatever?Double Diamond said:
Wrong Kennedy created a weak culture chalk full of soft play and excuse making. Buzz won't put up with that.
Outside of Gilder, sure. They were "raised" by BK's system. They may not be "weak" or "soft", but what they are is "not very good
JJ Caldwell, Alex Robinson, Jamal Branch, J-Mychal Reese, TJ Starks, Shawn Smith, Peyton Allen, Avery Johnson Jr.
And that's just the guards.
And Kennedy completely misused and wasted Robert Williams while he was here. He was hardly developed whatsoever. Numerous NBA scouts think so as well.
Do we get a top pick due to Buzz not wanting to win?
This is going to be a long post, but it's a worthy discussion so bear with me.
I just think college basketball recruiting is hard to quantify outside of the elite one-and-done types. There are just way too many variables. Size of classes, how much a given player is expected to play right away, the style of the coach, etc.
But, I do think there's kind of a blueprint for success for schools like us.
1) A core of 3-star/low 4-star types that you keep in the program and develop - These are guys that may not contribute a whole lot until they're juniors, but they form the core of your team and are leaders in practice and workouts. You hope to catch a few 'diamonds in the rough' here, but even if not they can still turn into important pieces.
Past examples: Acie Law, Marlon Pompey, Josh Carter, BJ Holmes, Kourtney Roberson, Jordan Green, TJ Starks, Ray Turner, Nathan Walkup
2) One or two in a good year, of the mid four stars in Texas/Louisiana. Top 50-150 guys. These guys usually contribute as freshmen, but aren't the centerpiece. They can develop into elite players, but are possible NBA risks if they have a great season. But a key is keeping these guys in the program because they are usually very likely to, at minimum, be solid contributors down the road.
Past examples: Robert Williams, Alex Robinson, Bryan Davis, Donald Sloan, Alex Caruso, Joseph Jones, Admon Gilder, Derrick Roland
3) Every so often, one of the elite players. Top 50 players that you have to compete with the big schools for. One of these guys can elevate your team up a weekend in March. If you can match one of these guys with a core of upperclassmen, then you're looking at an elite team. These guys are expected to contribute right away.
Past examples: Tyler Davis, DJ Hogg, DeAndre Jordan
That seems like how many of the best teams at Baylor, Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, LSU, etc have all been built. A few elite young players around a core of upperclassmen.
So for us it's less about recruiting top 25 classes and more stacking solid classes, but the biggest thing for a school like us is being able to keep a core of guys in the program and that's what Kennedy couldn't ever do.
From some quick research, here's the whole list of players in the Kennedy era who signed with us out of high school and played all four years: Jordan Green, Alex Caruso, Tavario Miller and Tonny Trocha-Morelos. (Jay Jay Chandler and Savion Flagg are now all that's left from the 2017 class and we didn't sign any high schoolers in 2018.)
That's it. Four guys. It's hard to build a program for the long haul like that. By comparison Buzz had four guys on his team just last year at Virginia Tech that he signed out of high school. Outlaw, Robinson, Hill (medical redshirt in 2016) and Blackshear (who would have been a senior except for his medical redshirt.)
I just think college basketball recruiting is hard to quantify outside of the elite one-and-done types. There are just way too many variables. Size of classes, how much a given player is expected to play right away, the style of the coach, etc.
But, I do think there's kind of a blueprint for success for schools like us.
1) A core of 3-star/low 4-star types that you keep in the program and develop - These are guys that may not contribute a whole lot until they're juniors, but they form the core of your team and are leaders in practice and workouts. You hope to catch a few 'diamonds in the rough' here, but even if not they can still turn into important pieces.
Past examples: Acie Law, Marlon Pompey, Josh Carter, BJ Holmes, Kourtney Roberson, Jordan Green, TJ Starks, Ray Turner, Nathan Walkup
2) One or two in a good year, of the mid four stars in Texas/Louisiana. Top 50-150 guys. These guys usually contribute as freshmen, but aren't the centerpiece. They can develop into elite players, but are possible NBA risks if they have a great season. But a key is keeping these guys in the program because they are usually very likely to, at minimum, be solid contributors down the road.
Past examples: Robert Williams, Alex Robinson, Bryan Davis, Donald Sloan, Alex Caruso, Joseph Jones, Admon Gilder, Derrick Roland
3) Every so often, one of the elite players. Top 50 players that you have to compete with the big schools for. One of these guys can elevate your team up a weekend in March. If you can match one of these guys with a core of upperclassmen, then you're looking at an elite team. These guys are expected to contribute right away.
Past examples: Tyler Davis, DJ Hogg, DeAndre Jordan
That seems like how many of the best teams at Baylor, Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, LSU, etc have all been built. A few elite young players around a core of upperclassmen.
So for us it's less about recruiting top 25 classes and more stacking solid classes, but the biggest thing for a school like us is being able to keep a core of guys in the program and that's what Kennedy couldn't ever do.
From some quick research, here's the whole list of players in the Kennedy era who signed with us out of high school and played all four years: Jordan Green, Alex Caruso, Tavario Miller and Tonny Trocha-Morelos. (Jay Jay Chandler and Savion Flagg are now all that's left from the 2017 class and we didn't sign any high schoolers in 2018.)
That's it. Four guys. It's hard to build a program for the long haul like that. By comparison Buzz had four guys on his team just last year at Virginia Tech that he signed out of high school. Outlaw, Robinson, Hill (medical redshirt in 2016) and Blackshear (who would have been a senior except for his medical redshirt.)
You're spot on, bob. All the things I wanted to say but just said "star rankings are basically meaningless" instead.
I understand why fans love star rankings. There are so many players out there that we'd like for them to be easily quantifiable. But they're just not.
I can't remember the name of it, but I watched a short documentary once on college basketball recruiting, and the main thing I got out of it is that when you look behind the scenes at the star ranking services, you see just how little they're actually able to accurately quantify things. There's just Way. Too. Many. Players. out there.
Sure, the recruiting services can hit on a lot of the 5 star/high 4 star guys, but that's because of limited exposure bias. All of those 5/high 4-star guys are playing in the same AAU tournaments and going to the same skill camps, so it's assumed that they're the ones worth paying attention to. Basically just a positive feedback bubble, like Twitter.
I understand why fans love star rankings. There are so many players out there that we'd like for them to be easily quantifiable. But they're just not.
I can't remember the name of it, but I watched a short documentary once on college basketball recruiting, and the main thing I got out of it is that when you look behind the scenes at the star ranking services, you see just how little they're actually able to accurately quantify things. There's just Way. Too. Many. Players. out there.
Sure, the recruiting services can hit on a lot of the 5 star/high 4 star guys, but that's because of limited exposure bias. All of those 5/high 4-star guys are playing in the same AAU tournaments and going to the same skill camps, so it's assumed that they're the ones worth paying attention to. Basically just a positive feedback bubble, like Twitter.
The rise of the elite AAU circuit, like the NIKE EYBL also doesn't help. I've been out of the game for a while now, but one of the best things about the old AAU circuit is you'd see really elite players against the mid-tier guys which could give the mid guys a chance to show their stuff.
Now it's a lot of the same guys on the court together so if a player isn't on one of those elite teams it's hard to get a feel for how good they really are.
Alex Caruso is a good example of a guy that was hard to grade because he wasn't on one of the elite AAU teams. It can also work the other guy where a guy looks better than he really is because he plays on an elite team.
But it's less that the star ratings are meaningless, in fact I think they the industry does a really good job os rating individual players, but it's more that I think class rankings are meaningless.
Now it's a lot of the same guys on the court together so if a player isn't on one of those elite teams it's hard to get a feel for how good they really are.
Alex Caruso is a good example of a guy that was hard to grade because he wasn't on one of the elite AAU teams. It can also work the other guy where a guy looks better than he really is because he plays on an elite team.
But it's less that the star ratings are meaningless, in fact I think they the industry does a really good job os rating individual players, but it's more that I think class rankings are meaningless.
Agree with you Bob.
The freshman class we have, by the time they are juniors..
G Gordan
G McNeilly
F Miller
F Gultekin
F Aku
VERY solid foundation
And now we add this group who will be sophomores
G Diarra
G Hefner
G Bradford
And likely a forward or grad transfer
We will likely have 3 freshmen that year.
Those three classes stacked on each other are going to make up a VERY good team in two years.
The freshman class we have, by the time they are juniors..
G Gordan
G McNeilly
F Miller
F Gultekin
F Aku
VERY solid foundation
And now we add this group who will be sophomores
G Diarra
G Hefner
G Bradford
And likely a forward or grad transfer
We will likely have 3 freshmen that year.
Those three classes stacked on each other are going to make up a VERY good team in two years.
Yeah, we haven't seen McNeilly yet, but of the guys we have seen they would all kind of fit the mold of development players. In a perfect world, you wouldn't want to be counting on these types of players to play huge minutes as freshmen.
With such a big class, you'd think the odds are good that one of them ends up being a lot better than expected and I think we already have that in Gordon. I think he's going to be really good.
What a lot of us were hoping is that some of our current upperclassmen would transition well to what Buzz wants to do and become a solid experienced core quickly, but that hasn't happened yet and now combined with the injuries it looks like we're heading toward a longer project than we hoped.
But that's the difference between having a core of upperclassmen that know what the coaches expect and can get the younger players to buy in and basically everyone on the team being on the same level with a new coach.
With such a big class, you'd think the odds are good that one of them ends up being a lot better than expected and I think we already have that in Gordon. I think he's going to be really good.
What a lot of us were hoping is that some of our current upperclassmen would transition well to what Buzz wants to do and become a solid experienced core quickly, but that hasn't happened yet and now combined with the injuries it looks like we're heading toward a longer project than we hoped.
But that's the difference between having a core of upperclassmen that know what the coaches expect and can get the younger players to buy in and basically everyone on the team being on the same level with a new coach.
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3 years and 3 minute average playing time .HotardRat said:BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:Caruso, House. Williams, Jones !!!HotardRat said:LawHall88 said:Buzz basically cleaned house, including the staff and supporting positions. With Starks leaving, we're down to 4 scholarship holdovers (Nebo, Chandler, Mitchell, Flagg) plus a couple walkons who will play. Are they weak, soft, whatever?Double Diamond said:
Wrong Kennedy created a weak culture chalk full of soft play and excuse making. Buzz won't put up with that.
Outside of Gilder, sure. They were "raised" by BK's system. They may not be "weak" or "soft", but what they are is "not very good
JJ Caldwell, Alex Robinson, Jamal Branch, J-Mychal Reese, TJ Starks, Shawn Smith, Peyton Allen, Avery Johnson Jr.
And that's just the guards.
And Kennedy completely misused and wasted Robert Williams while he was here. He was hardly developed whatsoever. Numerous NBA scouts think so as well.
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
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