_lefraud_ said:

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All Time better than 2018:

1964
1969
1975
1976
1980
2007
2016

As for teams that were arguably better (or at least equal):

2006
2008
2010
2018

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Arguing 'better' teams from dramatically different eras is always tough.

Technically if you put the 2018 team in a time machine and put them back in 1964, they'd probably wax that team. The physical conditioning programs/nutrition/athleticism of players today is so much more advanced than back then. Just flat out bigger/faster/stronger players now in general. Not to mention totally different rules and game (including the 3-point shot). Doesn't seem like you can objectively compare two teams that played 50 years apart.

You could say almost the exact same thing about the 2008 team. West Virginia and USC were awesome (at the time), but those wins didn't have much sizzle in March.

Eh, 2008 didn't beat anyone that was even ranked at the time in non-conference. (2018 West Virginia was still a five seed, even if not as good as people thought back in November.)

Other big difference is the 2008 team didn't have any sort of major injuries they had to overcome. Of everyone that played at least 10 minutes per game everyone but DeAndre Jordan played in all 36 games and even DeAndre played in 35.

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1964

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I certainly don't remember 1964 and neither do you. I guess you looked in Wikipedia and saw they finished the year ranked 18th. This was a completely segregated team, lost in the first round of the tournament. Sounds like a MAJOR reach to me.

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1969

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No way. We won a weak conference, were un ranked all year, got matched up with Trinity (TX) since the tournament was truly regional then. Won that. Then got blown out by Drake and Colorado in the third place regional game. Also a completely segregated team. We went 18-9 with losses to Lamar Tech and SFA. Not up for debate.

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1975

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How? We didn't beat a ranked team all year. Were never ranked. Lost in the first round of the tournament. Not up for debate.

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1976

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Again, how? Didn't beat a ranked team all year. Lost in the first round of the conference tournament.

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1980
2007
2016

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Conceded.

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2006

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No way. Lower KenPom rating. 12th seed. Lost in the second round. No basis for that argument.

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2008

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Maybe debatable. But 9th seed, lost in the second round, so no.

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2010

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I also have this in my top 5.

So there you go.

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2018

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10-8 in conference with loses to LSU (twice) and Mississippi State (at home). First round conference tourney loss. 13 losses total. Not up for debate.

_lefraud_ said:

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2018

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10-8 in conference with loses to LSU (twice) and Mississippi State (at home). First round conference tourney loss. 13 losses total. Not up for debate.

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I find it pretty fascinating that you continue to try to make an argument when it is obvious (to yourself included, if you were being honest with yourself) that you are wrong.

You can't make an argument for any of those teams I shot down as being better or having a better season than 2018. It would be like arguing that blue is green. You can keep saying it but, really, why?

But I am really curious about the mentality of you digging in on this. Like at what level of your conscious or subconscious are trying to convince yourself?

I just don't view a season by 3 or 4 games. I try to look at the whole season. If you look at all 35 games, this team (season) looked more like 2006, 2008, 2010 than it did to 2007 or 2016.

Okay, so... that is true but doesn't support your position. I guess that is an awkward concession that you were wrong.

Do you really think Billy's Parkinsons is what is keeping him around?

I highly doubt it, see A&M firing Kevin Sumlin a few months after he received a racist letter from a fan.

Sports is a results driven business and Sumlin didn't live up to expectations and if Billy doesn't make the tournament in the next two years he is likely gone

DogCompany74 said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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DukeMu said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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I think Method was implying that if A&M was remotely interested in basketball, Billy Kennedy would have been gone after year 3, or 4. But yea, since Sumlin looked like he had football headed in the right direction, and with the new football stadium being built, it left no one to address (or even aware) the issues that basketball was experiencing under Kennedy.

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I think that's fair. It's takes an oh-fer-16 conference record to outright fire someone in men's basketball around TAMU.

The emotional in fiscal investment of BMAs and the ADs in MBB just isn't there. The fans rise and fall depending upon the product, illustrated by the attendance numbers.

Will all that change? Probably not substantially, although I believe we'll make a run at a very good D-1 coach if the opportunity arises.

The worst case scenario is that Kennedy does just enough to retain his position for 3 years and run the program into the ground...and we have a USCe or Auburn rebuild situation.

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My impression of the present situation is that it isn't going to take an '0-16' season to fire the Aggie hoops coach.

The reason for that is there was a lot of smoke in the national and local media (USA Today article, Gary Parrish podcast, etc) that the Texas A&M basketball job would have come open this year had A&M missed the NCAA tournament, and maybe even if they had lost to Providence in the first round (that latter tidbit according to 'buzz' that Parrish said was floating around from 'industry sources').

The simple fact is that Kennedy has legitimately done well enough the past 4 years to not get fired (2 Sweet Sixteens and an NIT over 4 years at a school like A&M is objectively 'fine'), but not good enough for a number of folks to like him.

Because of all that previous smoke in the past that his job has definitely been 'on the line' a couple of times, I personally think that if Kennedy stumbled and were to miss the NCAA tournament next season, there would be a decent chance he'd get replaced.And almost certain that he'd get replaced if he were to miss the NCAA the next two seasons. It isn't going to have to take him going 0-18.

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Excellent summary of why we are lagging behind in MBB. The only exception that I would make regarding your future vision is that I think Billy Kennedy will be allowed to stay on as long as he wants to and there is not a 1-2 year bottom of the SEC showings. There is no one in the Administration that is willing to take the media / political hit for firing a man with a debilitating disease. He has permanently innoculated himself against pre-emptive moves to evaluate it are his body of work as a coach and program builder.

Every honest evaluation would see that his 45% winning percentage in a moderate class SEC after seven years and trending down is not going to cut it but who is going to fire him after his acolytes and agent are telling the press that he is the most successful coach A&M has ever had.

It's depressing but it is where we find ourselves with " poor Billy".

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mdanyc03 said:

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Okay, so... that is true but doesn't support your position. I guess that is an awkward concession that you were wrong.

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True about what, that 2018 is more in line with 2006, 2008, 2010? Those teams before the "modern era" didn't have the luxury of playing in a 68 team field, or in an era where 12 losses can still get an at large bid. The field was 25-30 teams, AND a team from Texas (not on the east coast) had to win their conference (even if "bad") to make the tournament.

I put stock into finishing high in the conference, you don't. You put stock into two games in March, I don't. You won't change my mind, and I won't change your mind. But to say the 2018 team is a top 5 team in program history is a slap in the face to any team prior to 2006.

If I had to rank my top 5 post-Shelby:

2007
2016
2010
2008
2018

Having said that, maybe we should take a poll. As fans, what year was more enjoyable, or which team did you "like" more, 2006 or 2018?

_lefraud_ said:

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Having said that, maybe we should take a poll. As fans, what year was more enjoyable, or which team did you "like" more, 2006 or 2018?

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Yeah, I think this speaks more to the current attitude on this board. This season was a grind as a fan.

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This season was a grind as a fan.

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And, as you implied, I think a big part of that is that you spent time on the board during the season and this board was toxic and negative.

I stayed away during the season and I probably enjoyed the season more than most of you.

This happens with any message board or other social media community. People like to discuss things with people who agree with them. When any message board gets, say, a 60%-40% split on any major issue, then most of the 40% goes away or goes silent because they don't like being a minority view. They will find another social media community with whom to associate. Then the 60% majority becomes a 90% majority and they think that everybody agrees with them and they just take their views for granted as consensus accepted truths. This happens in politics. I have seen it happen with various boards on Texags and 247.

Did multiple people in this thread actually try to say that basketball compared less favorably to other sports on our campus because of Bill Byrne with a straight face?

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You won't change my mind, and I won't change your mind.

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Fans log on to sports message boards to preach, whine, vent, bloviate, troll, mock, or get news tidbits about the team. Few are logging on here trying to change anyone's damn mind.

Good thread. I agree BK's inconsistency as a coach makes his teams more difficult to watch knowing they could be more consistent and better with a better leader.

I didn't spend much time on the forums this season but I felt it was a grind nonetheless.....I'm not saying spending times on the forums isn't an aggravating factor but you have to call a spade a spade

It was a frustrating season for me seeing all the suspensions, injuries and poor performances are going to happen and part of sports but I don't understand why guys would get suspended multiple times and that could have derailed a special season

At the end of the day, it was a successful season because of what they did in March, but before the NCAAs had started, I would have told you it was a disappointing year

mdanyc03 said:

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This season was a grind as a fan.

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And, as you implied, I think a big part of that is that you spent time on the board during the season and this board was toxic and negative.

I stayed away during the season and I probably enjoyed the season more than most of you.

This happens with any message board or other social media community. People like to discuss things with people who agree with them. When any message board gets, say, a 60%-40% split on any major issue, then most of the 40% goes away or goes silent because they don't like being a minority view. They will find another social media community with whom to associate. Then the 60% majority becomes a 90% majority and they think that everybody agrees with them and they just take their views for granted as consensus accepted truths. This happens in politics. I have seen it happen with various boards on Texags and 247.

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Yeah, I don't think people on here being negative is why this season was a grind for me. During the year I tend to mostly stay away from the negative threads and try to mostly just chat about what's going on in other games. Like I almost never post on here during games or after losses, for example.

It was more the fact that we had one of our most talented teams ever and almost everyone on it managed to get suspended at one point or another. Like I've said several times on here, that to me speaks to a major lack of leadership in the program. That and just the general apathetic way we played a few times.

I do sort of agree with your point that this board made the season seem worse than it was, but it was still a grind of a season from a fan perspective.

For example, the Mississippi State home game was one of the worst A&M performances I've ever seen in person. Being at that game was infuriating, and I almost never get actually angry about sporting events these days.

Shelby had some good teams and was very successful early on. Then our facilities lagged and we fell behind. When we went to the state board to build a new facility, Ann Richards blocked us in retaliation for sending Clayton Williams to oppose her. Finally we got a water-downed facility of what we wanted. Eventually we got Gillespie and Turgeon and were doing pretty well. Then--we got Kennedy and...

Any possibility that injuries to 3 of 5 starters had anything to do with our record in2918 ?

Hard to say bud, that's not for another 900 years. I'd hope by then medical advances would be able to get guys back on the court very quickly.

bobinator said:

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Yeah, I don't think people on here being negative is why this season was a grind for me. During the year I tend to mostly stay away from the negative threads and try to mostly just chat about what's going on in other games. Like I almost never post on here during games or after losses, for example.

It was more the fact that we had one of our most talented teams ever and almost everyone on it managed to get suspended at one point or another. Like I've said several times on here, that to me speaks to a major lack of leadership in the program. That and just the general apathetic way we played a few times.

I do sort of agree with your point that this board made the season seem worse than it was, but it was still a grind of a season from a fan perspective.

For example, the Mississippi State home game was one of the worst A&M performances I've ever seen in person. Being at that game was infuriating, and I almost never get actually angry about sporting events these days.

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Mississippi State....I threw the towel in on them. Was done and waiting for them to miss the tourney and Kennedy to get fired.

Then they won 5 of their next 6 games with a fantastic showing in Charlotte, including wonderful play sequences like these:

And by then, I had pretty much moved on from Miss State and the suspensions and that awful half of conference play. I was thinking Elite Eight....maybe, just maybe...Final Four.

Then of course they laid an egg versus Michigan.

Was a wild ride.

BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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Any possibility that injuries to 3 of 5 starters had anything to do with our record in2918 ?

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Yes that and a crappy job coaching and motivating some games.

Method Man said:

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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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Any possibility that injuries to 3 of 5 starters had anything to do with our record in2918 ?

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Yes that and a crappy job coaching and motivating some games.

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I'm skeptical about your prediction. Thinking probably won't even have coaching staffs in 2918, or even real physical courts. Teams will hookup online and compete using VR suits like that Ready Player One book/movie.

Kennedy head with android body will be our coach

Method Man said:

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Kennedy head with android body will be our coach

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I wouldn't worry about that Method.

While BK has made millions and perhaps will be able to pay for such a thing to keep on trucking, you won't be able to afford any android body and thus will be long gone posting in heaven by then.

Is THAT the goal ? Just making the tourney ? I expect the standards to be higher than that.

I think most fans would define a successful season as one where we made the dance. Hence the frustration in a guy who has made the s16 twice but has failed to make the dance 70% of the time compared to his predecessor who made the dance every year but never got out of the first weekend.

windmill.1 said:

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Is THAT the goal ? Just making the tourney ? I expect the standards to be higher than that.

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Pretty much, yes that is a reasonable standard for every school in the SEC not named Kentucky.

It seems like this thread took a slight derail somewhere, although some little glimmers of the original question remain.

As to why the program historically has been "bad," you could ask a pretty similar question of every team in the old SWC (the pre-UH SWC) and much of the state of Texas' basketball programs.

I don't know if anyone could catalogue all the possible reasons why. Basketball didn't seem to capture the imagination of many Texas high schoolers with a few small school exceptions. That might even apply to the whole South. (An interesting documentary on Hot Springs Arkansas' history of hosting first half of the 20th century baseball teams for spring conditioning and some spring training mentioned that Honus Wagner, who played basketball in Pittsburgh in the off-season for conditioning purposes, helped Hot Springs High School to get decent equipment and uniforms to finally have a decent basketball team.) Segregation certainly meant some of the potentially most talented players were playing for "separate but equal" high schools.

Now being a segregated program didn't necessarily mean you couldn't be a good program. Adolph Rupp certainly managed to have some good teams that were all white segregation teams. But you needed good coaches, and in the economically backward South, most schools saved their money for their favorite sports - and in Texas that invariably tended to be football. The UIL was also slow to allow basketball opportunities to start doing camps or other ways of improving players skill levels outside of the season.

So the talent pool was small, self-restricted to eliminate some of the best talents, and was below second fiddle when it came to facilities. How many years did A&M play in DeWare Fieldhouse? And as much as I enjoyed old G. Rollie as the center of my Health and P. E. major universe in the mid to late 70's, I knew it wasn't a great facility to which to recruit elite basketball talent! But it wasn't like our conference opponents were making a habit of dominating us or any of their conference mates enough to inspire us to do better. As was so often the case, it was only if tu began consistently beating us badly that we would get serious about trying to rectify the situation.

Another poster somewhat accurately described some of the crap that went on with the state when A&M first talked of making a facility to replace G. Rollie as our basketball home. The state wouldn't allow a basketball only facility and the College Coordinating Board had much more power and say in those days - and they didn't want us to have anything that came close to the Drum in Austin.

While conditions have changed post--segregation and with more money for all sports now available through massive media contracts - it is perhaps suggestive than no Texas programs have risen toward continuous success. The most successful program historically in Texas was Guy V. Lewis' UH squads - and they could never win a title. Isn't the only NCAA tournament title by a Texas team still Texas Western (now UTEP) with one of the first integrated teams in the state?

A&M needs a coach that can catch lightning in a bottle to really fire up the entire fanbase. A great coach, a few players of the caliber of an Elvin Hayes or a Hakeem Olajowan or Clyde Drexler and an exciting run to the Final Four and then win one - and Aggie attitudes about basketball might change. Someone mention Florida - well they caught their lightning with Billy Donovan - but they haven't been able to really reduplicate the circumstances without him. So it isn't going to be easy.

Rev...good summary as to why basketball in Texas has lagged behind the nation. I came to A&M in 1970 from El Paso loving basketball because of what Don Haskins did at Texas Western.

You are also correct in your assumption that with the right coach A&Ms attitude towards men's basketball can turn into a positive and exciting experience. It can only happen if the AD and the BMAs decide that we can no longer be trapped in the mediocrity of the past and commit to being the best in our conference .

RevrndAg79 said:

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It seems like this thread took a slight derail somewhere, although some little glimmers of the original question remain.

As to why the program historically has been "bad," you could ask a pretty similar question of every team in the old SWC (the pre-UH SWC) and much of the state of Texas' basketball programs.

I don't know if anyone could catalogue all the possible reasons why. Basketball didn't seem to capture the imagination of many Texas high schoolers with a few small school exceptions. That might even apply to the whole South. (An interesting documentary on Hot Springs Arkansas' history of hosting first half of the 20th century baseball teams for spring conditioning and some spring training mentioned that Honus Wagner, who played basketball in Pittsburgh in the off-season for conditioning purposes, helped Hot Springs High School to get decent equipment and uniforms to finally have a decent basketball team.) Segregation certainly meant some of the potentially most talented players were playing for "separate but equal" high schools.

Now being a segregated program didn't necessarily mean you couldn't be a good program. Adolph Rupp certainly managed to have some good teams that were all white segregation teams. But you needed good coaches, and in the economically backward South, most schools saved their money for their favorite sports - and in Texas that invariably tended to be football. The UIL was also slow to allow basketball opportunities to start doing camps or other ways of improving players skill levels outside of the season.

So the talent pool was small, self-restricted to eliminate some of the best talents, and was below second fiddle when it came to facilities. How many years did A&M play in DeWare Fieldhouse? And as much as I enjoyed old G. Rollie as the center of my Health and P. E. major universe in the mid to late 70's, I knew it wasn't a great facility to which to recruit elite basketball talent! But it wasn't like our conference opponents were making a habit of dominating us or any of their conference mates enough to inspire us to do better. As was so often the case, it was only if tu began consistently beating us badly that we would get serious about trying to rectify the situation.

Another poster somewhat accurately described some of the crap that went on with the state when A&M first talked of making a facility to replace G. Rollie as our basketball home. The state wouldn't allow a basketball only facility and the College Coordinating Board had much more power and say in those days - and they didn't want us to have anything that came close to the Drum in Austin.

While conditions have changed post--segregation and with more money for all sports now available through massive media contracts - it is perhaps suggestive than no Texas programs have risen toward continuous success. The most successful program historically in Texas was Guy V. Lewis' UH squads - and they could never win a title. Isn't the only NCAA tournament title by a Texas team still Texas Western (now UTEP) with one of the first integrated teams in the state?

A&M needs a coach that can catch lightning in a bottle to really fire up the entire fanbase. A great coach, a few players of the caliber of an Elvin Hayes or a Hakeem Olajowan or Clyde Drexler and an exciting run to the Final Four and then win one - and Aggie attitudes about basketball might change. Someone mention Florida - well they caught their lightning with Billy Donovan - but they haven't been able to really reduplicate the circumstances without him. So it isn't going to be easy.

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Great summary! Thanks!

mdanyc03 said:

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Quote:

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This season was a grind as a fan.

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And, as you implied, I think a big part of that is that you spent time on the board during the season and this board was toxic and negative.

I stayed away during the season and I probably enjoyed the season more than most of you.

This happens with any message board or other social media community. People like to discuss things with people who agree with them. When any message board gets, say, a 60%-40% split on any major issue, then most of the 40% goes away or goes silent because they don't like being a minority view. They will find another social media community with whom to associate. Then the 60% majority becomes a 90% majority and they think that everybody agrees with them and they just take their views for granted as consensus accepted truths. This happens in politics. I have seen it happen with various boards on Texags and 247.

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I'm going to disagree with that. Unless you just willfully ignored all the off the court events, and on court meltdowns. I would also say I'm generally more positive about all the players (not Billy) than most on the board.

Pumpkinhead said:

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The past few years, I've personally been more disappointed with football than basketball. Basketball the past 4 years with 2 Sweet Sixteens and 1 NIT has actually been objectively decent for a school like A&M.

But the core reason for Aggie Athletics existence...Our football program...It has a well deserved national reputation of underachiever given all the emphasis and resources put on it. Other than 2012, most of the past 20 years...yuck. Had a window of momentum from Manziel and the folks in Austin being in a slump, and were not able to really to take advantage. Hopefully the Jimbo move will finally result in a Playoff appearance sometime in the next 3-4 years. You at least can't blame A&M for not throwing everything but the kitchen sink into football. That is some serious cash being paid out.

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This. Basketball has done well compared to football.

It's hilarious that in order to make the ridiculous narrative that basketball has been better than football you have to selectively compare the last 4 yrs of Kennedy (why 4 not 7?) against the last 20 football seasons.
If the objective were an honest comparison, one might be able to make the case that hoops has been more successful than football in the ~14yrs since gillispie was hired. But over just about any other period (5 yrs/ 10yrs/ 25yrs) football has outperformed hoops. I'm not nearly as big of an aggie baseball fan as I am for football and hoops but it would seem that despite the frustrations with childress his program has been the best of the 3 over his 12 yrs.

Historically, I think there is a whole cultural issue that lends itself to success in certain sports. There is probably some connection to what certain boosters wanted to see success in, and I don't know if ever was basketball.

The state of Texas (and not just the state of Texas) has produced strong basketballindividual talent, but historically, the state collectively has nowhere near what it is for some other states/locations.


Certain schools had cultures that were better fits for basketball: The Northeast, Carolinas, Kentucky, urban/city schools, and probably Catholic schools.


Texas Western/UTEP won in 1966. Besides that, there was Phi Slama Jama run in the early 80s with 2 championship game appearances. Baylor had a championship game appearance in 1948

No other championship game appearances by Texas schools. But there are no championship game appearances (that I can find) for LSU, Auburn, Bama, Ole Miss, Miss ST, although I could be wrong on that.

At some point historically, the big money boosters of a sport at some schools cared more about basketball, and in the state of Texas and other states, I'm not sure it ever was the case.