At the moment, my Ags hoops interest is mostly centered on whether Tyler Davis is coming back. If he does, I think there is a decent chance we will have an NCAA team next season. If he doesn't, I'll be skeptical.

Correct, which is why I listed his name under those of which we have had success...

Pumpkinhead said:

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At the moment, my Ags hoops interest is mostly centered on whether Tyler Davis is coming back. If he does, I think there is a decent chance we will have an NCAA team next season. If he doesn't, I'll be skeptical.

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You seem really intent on impressing people with your skepticism.

I think Method was implying that if A&M was remotely interested in basketball, Billy Kennedy would have been gone after year 3, or 4. But yea, since Sumlin looked like he had football headed in the right direction, and with the new football stadium being built, it left no one to address (or even aware) the issues that basketball was experiencing under Kennedy.

Probably an accurate view coupled with Hyman just collecting a check.

mdanyc03 said:

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Quote:

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Your mentality of constantly defending and researching ways to define bad to average coaches as good is an Aggie tradition and part of the reason why we rarely win anything of importance.

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One other thing.

I read stuff like this on Texags all the time.

I donate money to the university and athletic department. I buy basketball season tickets. I live out of town and drive in for every game that I can. I am not "the problem."

Acquaint yourself with the fan base of any of the 300+ programs that have had less success than us over the past 15 years and you will find no shortage of internet tough guys that want to fire everybody associated with their program. What you will find is a shortage of fans who actually support and contribute to the program.

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a little disingenuous for you to intentionally leave out the part of his post that you quoted/replied to where he says "NOTE - this isnt specifically about you"

also, MM's point was that you are typically disingenuous in how you like to claim that BK is the best coach in program history because of the 2 NCAA trips, using that as a way to suggest that anyone who thinks we can do better than BK is an internet tough guy. this ignores that the "best coach in program history" is still under 0.500 in conference play after 7 full seasons (with zero chance of being over 0.500 after season 8), and that he has failed to make the dance over 70% of the time here (and overall).

Pumpkinhead said:

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The past few years, I've personally been more disappointed with football than basketball. Basketball the past 4 years with 2 Sweet Sixteens and 1 NIT has actually been objectively decent for a school like A&M.

But the core reason for Aggie Athletics existence...Our football program...It has a well deserved national reputation of underachiever given all the emphasis and resources put on it. Other than 2012, most of the past 20 years...yuck. Had a window of momentum from Manziel and the folks in Austin being in a slump, and were not able to really to take advantage. Hopefully the Jimbo move will finally result in a Playoff appearance sometime in the next 3-4 years. You at least can't blame A&M for not throwing everything but the kitchen sink into football. That is some serious cash being paid out.

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Basketball had a lot more (relative) talent than football...after Sherman's recruits left.

Next year it's all about does Davis stay or not and Nebo's development, even if Tyler does not leave.

2018 was a rollercoaster, 2017 was very disappointing. 2019 could be like 2016, 2017, or 2018. Who the hell knows with Kennedy?

_lefraud_ said:

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I think Method was implying that if A&M was remotely interested in basketball, Billy Kennedy would have been gone after year 3, or 4. But yea, since Sumlin looked like he had football headed in the right direction, and with the new football stadium being built, it left no one to address (or even aware) the issues that basketball was experiencing under Kennedy.

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I think that's fair. It's takes an oh-fer-16 conference record to outright fire someone in men's basketball around TAMU.

The emotional in fiscal investment of BMAs and the ADs in MBB just isn't there. The fans rise and fall depending upon the product, illustrated by the attendance numbers.

Will all that change? Probably not substantially, although I believe we'll make a run at a very good D-1 coach if the opportunity arises.

The worst case scenario is that Kennedy does just enough to retain his position for 3 years and run the program into the ground...and we have a USCe or Auburn rebuild situation.

PascalsWager said:

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Why does it lag behind Women's college basketball, Track and Field, Golf, Swimming and Diving, or Soccer?

If you're going to ask about baseball, you might as well ask about every sport?

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Because those programs haven't been around a long time (relatively speaking)....baseball and football had success even in the days when A&M was an all male all corps school but basketball hasn't

DukeMu said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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I think Method was implying that if A&M was remotely interested in basketball, Billy Kennedy would have been gone after year 3, or 4. But yea, since Sumlin looked like he had football headed in the right direction, and with the new football stadium being built, it left no one to address (or even aware) the issues that basketball was experiencing under Kennedy.

---

I think that's fair. It's takes an oh-fer-16 conference record to outright fire someone in men's basketball around TAMU.

The emotional in fiscal investment of BMAs and the ADs in MBB just isn't there. The fans rise and fall depending upon the product, illustrated by the attendance numbers.

Will all that change? Probably not substantially, although I believe we'll make a run at a very good D-1 coach if the opportunity arises.

The worst case scenario is that Kennedy does just enough to retain his position for 3 years and run the program into the ground...and we have a USCe or Auburn rebuild situation.

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My impression of the present situation is that it isn't going to take an '0-16' season to fire the Aggie hoops coach.

The reason for that is there was some smoke in the national media (USA Today article, Gary Parrish podcast, etc) that the Texas A&M basketball job would have come open this year had A&M missed the NCAA tournament, and maybe even if they had lost to Providence in the first round (that latter tidbit according to 'buzz' that Parrish said was floating around from 'industry sources').

The simple fact is that Kennedy has legitimately done well enough the past 4 years to not get fired (2 Sweet Sixteens and an NIT over 4 years at a school like A&M is objectively 'fine'). He just hasn't been consistently good enough for a number of fans to truly like him.

Because of previous indicators that his job has been 'on the line' at least a couple of times, I personally think that if Kennedy were to miss the NCAA tournament next season, there would be a decent chance he'd get replaced. And I'd feel almost certain that he'd get replaced if he were to miss the NCAA the next two seasons. It isn't going to have to take him going 0-18.

I fully agree that if he doesn't make the NCAA tournament by 2019-2020 then he will be fired

TXMatt15 said:

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PascalsWager said:

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Why does it lag behind Women's college basketball, Track and Field, Golf, Swimming and Diving, or Soccer?

If you're going to ask about baseball, you might as well ask about every sport?

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Because those programs haven't been around a long time (relatively speaking)....baseball and football had success even in the days when A&M was an all male all corps school but basketball hasn't

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This is false. If we set the bar 40 yrs ago (1978, which was technically a few years after we were all male military) :
Baseball has 12 SWC titles btwn olden days of the 1910s and our chosen ending date of 1978, hoops had 9 conf titles in that span, cross country had 12 titles, football 11, golf 8, and track & field 13. None of the sports were overwhelmingly great but all of them achieved a similar level of success.

Pumpkinhead said:

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DukeMu said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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I think Method was implying that if A&M was remotely interested in basketball, Billy Kennedy would have been gone after year 3, or 4. But yea, since Sumlin looked like he had football headed in the right direction, and with the new football stadium being built, it left no one to address (or even aware) the issues that basketball was experiencing under Kennedy.

---

I think that's fair. It's takes an oh-fer-16 conference record to outright fire someone in men's basketball around TAMU.

The emotional in fiscal investment of BMAs and the ADs in MBB just isn't there. The fans rise and fall depending upon the product, illustrated by the attendance numbers.

Will all that change? Probably not substantially, although I believe we'll make a run at a very good D-1 coach if the opportunity arises.

The worst case scenario is that Kennedy does just enough to retain his position for 3 years and run the program into the ground...and we have a USCe or Auburn rebuild situation.

---

My impression of the present situation is that it isn't going to take an '0-16' season to fire the Aggie hoops coach.

The reason for that is there was a lot of smoke in the national and local media (USA Today article, Gary Parrish podcast, etc) that the Texas A&M basketball job would have come open this year had A&M missed the NCAA tournament, and maybe even if they had lost to Providence in the first round (that latter tidbit according to 'buzz' that Parrish said was floating around from 'industry sources').

The simple fact is that Kennedy has legitimately done well enough the past 4 years to not get fired (2 Sweet Sixteens and an NIT over 4 years at a school like A&M is objectively 'fine'), but not good enough for a number of folks to like him.

Because of all that previous smoke in the past that his job has definitely been 'on the line' a couple of times, I personally think that if Kennedy stumbled and were to miss the NCAA tournament next season, there would be a decent chance he'd get replaced.And almost certain that he'd get replaced if he were to miss the NCAA the next two seasons. It isn't going to have to take him going 0-18.

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Excellent summary of why we are lagging behind in MBB. The only exception that I would make regarding your future vision is that I think Billy Kennedy will be allowed to stay on as long as he wants to and there is not a 1-2 year bottom of the SEC showings. There is no one in the Administration that is willing to take the media / political hit for firing a man with a debilitating disease. He has permanently innoculated himself against pre-emptive moves to evaluate it are his body of work as a coach and program builder.

Every honest evaluation would see that his 45% winning percentage in a moderate class SEC after seven years and trending down is not going to cut it but who is going to fire him after his acolytes and agent are telling the press that he is the most successful coach A&M has ever had.

It's depressing but it is where we find ourselves with " poor Billy".

Didn't we win a BBasketball Natty in 2011 ? And several Nattys in Equestrienne ?

DogCompany74 said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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DukeMu said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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I think Method was implying that if A&M was remotely interested in basketball, Billy Kennedy would have been gone after year 3, or 4. But yea, since Sumlin looked like he had football headed in the right direction, and with the new football stadium being built, it left no one to address (or even aware) the issues that basketball was experiencing under Kennedy.

---

I think that's fair. It's takes an oh-fer-16 conference record to outright fire someone in men's basketball around TAMU.

The emotional in fiscal investment of BMAs and the ADs in MBB just isn't there. The fans rise and fall depending upon the product, illustrated by the attendance numbers.

Will all that change? Probably not substantially, although I believe we'll make a run at a very good D-1 coach if the opportunity arises.

The worst case scenario is that Kennedy does just enough to retain his position for 3 years and run the program into the ground...and we have a USCe or Auburn rebuild situation.

---

My impression of the present situation is that it isn't going to take an '0-16' season to fire the Aggie hoops coach.

The reason for that is there was a lot of smoke in the national and local media (USA Today article, Gary Parrish podcast, etc) that the Texas A&M basketball job would have come open this year had A&M missed the NCAA tournament, and maybe even if they had lost to Providence in the first round (that latter tidbit according to 'buzz' that Parrish said was floating around from 'industry sources').

The simple fact is that Kennedy has legitimately done well enough the past 4 years to not get fired (2 Sweet Sixteens and an NIT over 4 years at a school like A&M is objectively 'fine'), but not good enough for a number of folks to like him.

Because of all that previous smoke in the past that his job has definitely been 'on the line' a couple of times, I personally think that if Kennedy stumbled and were to miss the NCAA tournament next season, there would be a decent chance he'd get replaced.And almost certain that he'd get replaced if he were to miss the NCAA the next two seasons. It isn't going to have to take him going 0-18.

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Excellent summary of why we are lagging behind in MBB. The only exception that I would make regarding your future vision is that I think Billy Kennedy will be allowed to stay on as long as he wants to and there is not a 1-2 year bottom of the SEC showings. There is no one in the Administration that is willing to take the media / political hit for firing a man with a debilitating disease. He has permanently innoculated himself against pre-emptive moves to evaluate it are his body of work as a coach and program builder.

Every honest evaluation would see that his 45% winning percentage in a moderate class SEC after seven years and trending down is not going to cut it but who is going to fire him after his acolytes and agent are telling the press that he is the most successful coach A&M has ever had.

It's depressing but it is where we find ourselves with " poor Billy".

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Nobody is going to fire him when he is coming off two Sweet Sixteens in 3 years. The dude hasn't done bad enough the past 3 years to get fired. Period. End of Story. The last 3 years are way more important than talking about his 7 seasons at A&M as a whole...because sports is all about 'what have you done for me lately'. Why is it a 'poor Billy' situation when the guy has recently been delivering Sweet Sixteens? When his teams are bad again (which if he is as bad as folks feel and given that recruiting seems to be trending down - then we should be bad again fairly soon), well then you fire him.

Personally, I think the time to fire him was after Year 2 or Year 3. Though...ironically...even had they fired him and hired somebody else...there is probably a decent chance that new hire would have done no better than (or maybe would have done worse) than what Kennedy pulled off the past 4 years. So even though I think they should have fired him after Year 3, I can't sit here and say it was definitely a BAD decision to keep him when things over the past 3-4 years actually ended up working out decently.

The decision to leave will be his so it is really a moot point about firing him. As an Aggie basketball fan for 45 years, I just need to scale my expectations back to eating whatever Billy is serving .

bobinator said:

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Quote:

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Nobody is going to fire him when he is coming off two Sweet Sixteens in 3 years. The dude hasn't done bad enough the past 3 years to get fired. Period. End of Story.

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Yeah, I don't know why there's so much discussion about this when it's really that easy.

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well, to be fair, that isnt the point of this thread, it is just a PH swerve into a new topic.

True, though my comment wasn't really this-thread specific either.

Pumpkinhead said:

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DukeMu said:

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_lefraud_ said:

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I think Method was implying that if A&M was remotely interested in basketball, Billy Kennedy would have been gone after year 3, or 4. But yea, since Sumlin looked like he had football headed in the right direction, and with the new football stadium being built, it left no one to address (or even aware) the issues that basketball was experiencing under Kennedy.

---

I think that's fair. It's takes an oh-fer-16 conference record to outright fire someone in men's basketball around TAMU.

The emotional in fiscal investment of BMAs and the ADs in MBB just isn't there. The fans rise and fall depending upon the product, illustrated by the attendance numbers.

Will all that change? Probably not substantially, although I believe we'll make a run at a very good D-1 coach if the opportunity arises.

The worst case scenario is that Kennedy does just enough to retain his position for 3 years and run the program into the ground...and we have a USCe or Auburn rebuild situation.

---

My impression of the present situation is that it isn't going to take an '0-16' season to fire the Aggie hoops coach.

The reason for that is there was some smoke in the national media (USA Today article, Gary Parrish podcast, etc) that the Texas A&M basketball job would have come open this year had A&M missed the NCAA tournament, and maybe even if they had lost to Providence in the first round (that latter tidbit according to 'buzz' that Parrish said was floating around from 'industry sources').

The simple fact is that Kennedy has legitimately done well enough the past 4 years to not get fired (2 Sweet Sixteens and an NIT over 4 years at a school like A&M is objectively 'fine'). He just hasn't been consistently good enough for a number of fans to truly like him.

Because of previous indicators that his job has been 'on the line' at least a couple of times, I personally think that if Kennedy were to miss the NCAA tournament next season, there would be a decent chance he'd get replaced. And I'd feel almost certain that he'd get replaced if he were to miss the NCAA the next two seasons. It isn't going to have to take him going 0-18.

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However, years 1-3 were a dumpster fire, year 4 a massive choke job after the Vanderbilt game, and 2017 a complete bust. 2018 took Elite 8/Final Four talent and made it a roller coaster.

Given the change in the football HC position, and all the suspensions, I think there was some momentum to make a change if we missed the NCAAs and after yet another first round conference tournament loss. Kind of a cleaning house notion. Some of that momentum of the Jimbo hire may carry on to baseball if they keep losing conference series.

There's no question football underperformed after Johnny, basketball has had a litany of embarrassing losses since Turge, and baseball underperforming. There's been enough paroxysmal quality MBB wins to keep Kennedy in his job. The CWS probably saved Childress' job

Another concert is the upgrade in SEC MBB coaches. No easy wins around now that the other Kennedy is gone. The SEC improvement is a double-edged sword.

Next year is teetering on whether Davis (mostly) and Gilder return. Can we acclimate JUCOs? (A&M's history at that are poor to mixed).

My concern again is that A&M basketball will stair step down each year and sink into the abyss. Right now, Texas A&M would be an attractive D-1 level job. The recruiting base is very good, fans will support a good team that hustles and doesn't give up. Facilities aren't ACC level, but they're very good. (note: back in the day, Carmichael was a nasty tin box and Cameron was degrading and didn't even have A/C.) So there's a chance of hiring a very good coach and recruiter.

However, with each passing year, the prospects would grow dimmer and dimmer...like the never ending endings of the movie - AI. (Well that ending is kind of depressing...but, wait there's more? That ending is even worse! OMG, there's even more? That ending is the most depressing of all - I'm out, whether credits roll or not!)

So B.A.S. is understandably infectious.

If Davis, Gilder return, JUCOs add depth and scoring, we should make the NCAAT. Ags need to work on their perimeter defense...and on offense outside shooting to create space. Losing Hogg is a huge factor to complete a team.

Quote:

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However, with each passing year, the prospects would grow dimmer and dimmer...like the never ending endings of the movie - AI. (Well that ending is kind of depressing...but, wait there's more? That ending is even worse! OMG, there's even more? That ending is the most depressing of all - I'm out, whether credits roll or not!)

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What are you even talking about? Again, two of our five best teams in school history have been in the past three years and people write stuff like this.

It is like bizarro alternative reality world where some of you invented something (Kennedy is the worst coach ever and we are on a fast track to being the worst team ever) and find your position reinforced no matter what the actual results are.

True or False - BK has a losing conference record after 7 full seasons.
True of False - BK has missed the dance over 70% of the time at TAMU.

the answers to those questions will tell you why the fan base doesnt like kennedy.

I refuse to believe that the 2018 team was a top 5 team ever. The team finished T7th in above average league. Two days in Charlotte don't make it a top 5 team ever.

But if you believe that, then it's the perfect answer to the OPs question, Ags are simply oblivious, blind and/or don't care.

expresswrittenconsent said:

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True or False - BK has a losing conference record after 7 full seasons.
True of False - BK has missed the dance over 70% of the time at TAMU.

the answers to those questions will tell you why the fan base doesnt like kennedy.

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And all of that is totally irrelevant to the point I am making.

_lefraud_ said:

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I refuse to believe that the 2018 team was a top 5 team ever. The team finished T7th in above average league. Two days in Charlotte don't make it a top 5 team ever.

But if you believe that, then it's the perfect answer to the OPs question, Ags are simply oblivious, blind and/or don't care.

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Give me your top five A&M teams ever.

Mine, in chronological order:
1980
2007
2010
2016
2018

So, this was my immediate response as well, but...

I think you can definitely make the case that it's the fourth best team of the modern era. How you compare teams across generations is up to you, but it's not as crazy of a statement as I thought it was at first.

Selection committee data for the 1980 NCAA men's basketball tourney.

https://extra.ncaa.org/solutions/rpi/Stats%20Library/1980%20Final%20RPI.pdf

Quote:

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I think you can definitely make the case that it's the fourth best team of the modern era.

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There is no doubt it is one of the top four teams of the modern era (by which I assume you mean post Shelby). There is no reasonable argument in which you can leave that team out of the top four. The question is whether it is third or fourth (vs 2010 which had a five seed but got knocked out in the second round).

Many people point to 1975 as the beginning of the modern era of college basketball. It was the year that the tournament expanded to 32 teams and included at-large bids. It was even the 1st time the term "Final Four" was used.

I meant more our modern era.

All Time better than 2018:

1964
1969
1975
1976
1980
2007
2016

As for teams that were arguably better (or at least equal):

2006
2008
2010
2018

expresswrittenconsent said:

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True or False - BK has a losing conference record after 7 full seasons.
True of False - BK has missed the dance over 70% of the time at TAMU.

the answers to those questions will tell you why the fan base doesnt like kennedy.

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It is understandable why fans don't like Kennedy.

But it is also understandable why he is still employed at Texas A&M. He won just enough at just the right time to save his job. He'd probably still be employed after 7 years at most schools in the SEC not named Kentucky. Because right when his seat got the hottest, he pulled an Sweet Sixteen out of the hat.

If the bottom starts falling out from under him again, as I mentioned in an earlier post, sure seems like there has been 'smoke' out there from national media types of some Aggie decision makers quite capable of whacking him.

Anyways...sure seems like one way or the other this situation will come to a resolution over the next couple of years. Either he keeps making NCAA tournaments...or the program sinks back to the level that it was during his first 3 seasons. If it is the former case, well okay then. Maybe still don't like him, but at least the guy is decently winning. If it is the latter case, he'll get replaced. I'd be really surprised if he wasn't, based on how hot his seat has apparently gotten previously at times.

This is a pointless exercise, but one thing 2018 has going for it is some big wins early and late, so handwaving away some of the losses makes it tough to argue against it if you're arguing which team was truly "better."

Like, there's not a lot of ways to argue against the stance that, at it's best, the 2018 team was one of the best teams we've ever put on the floor. But we spent a whole lot of the season not putting the best version of that team on the floor.