cecil77 said:

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put ketchup on fine steak.

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What? The? ****?

cecil77 said:

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I agree, but there are people that really like different stuff. One of the wealthiest humans I've ever known (heck his name is on where the sips play basketball) put ketchup on fine steak.

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This explains so much.

cecil77 said:

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There's a reason why there are thousands of wines made. Tastes vary widely. If you like Austin Hope - then that's great! And thanks for sharing your preference - that's what wine discussion and wine friends are all about.

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And it's also about trying to open folks up to wines that aren't mass produced and heavily manipulated. Caymus, mentioned above, is no longer even aged in oak (and barely aged at all). Wagner is pumping out as much as they can. If you like Austin Hope, great, but it's not a top wine under $100, which was my point (unless you read the Wine Enthusiast reviews, which is the least credible reviewer).

There are so many great wines out there that aren't cranked out in massive volumes with tons of added sugar or that aren't over-extracted. Fine to drink what you like, but branch out and try something new. Just some suggestions (at or under $100) that you can typically locate at Total Wine (or even some HEBS): Spottswoode Lyndenhurst, Melka CJ Cabernet, Krupp Veraison, Turnbull, Cade Howell Mountain, Revana Terroir, Mark Herold Brown Label, Darms Lane. Lots of others.

If you are open to ordering from wineries, you can find even more. The Pott wine mentioned above is the Pott & Daighters wine, which (like Lyndenhurst), is his "second" wine. Aaron is a top winemaker in Napa, working with a number of high-end wineries, in addition to making high-end wines of his own. This release is his lower-priced second wine, which sells for $65, and is really good. Try Arkenstone NVD, also under $100, from Sam Kaplan, another top winemaker. Or Kelly Fleming Big Pour, also a "second" Cabernet. Lots of examples like this as well.

Drink what you like, but try some of these.

Wine is such an interesting segment when you think about. Pick up any food in the grocery store and it's going to tell you exactly what went into that product.

I believe the EU is making a big push to have ingredients required on labeling. I understand it's complicated and will also come at a cost, but I, for one, am for it.

Are wood chips added flor flavor, mega purple, sugar, etc.? Could also even go farther, residual sugar levels, acid, etc.

htxag09 said:

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Wine is such an interesting segment when you think about. Pick up any food in the grocery store and it's going to tell you exactly what went into that product.

I believe the EU is making a big push to have ingredients required on labeling. I understand it's complicated and will also come at a cost, but I, for one, am for it.

Are wood chips added flor flavor, mega purple, sugar, etc.? Could also even go farther, residual sugar levels, acid, etc.

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I'd be happy if blends would actually list the wines used in the blends.

Agree with all of that, and I'd add Ch Montelena, which can be had for well under $50 at times.

Another thing to notice is the words "Produced by" on the label. That is a pre-fermintation term, so you know that the winery on the label actually fermented/made the wine. Even the iconic Duckhorn Merlot is not "bottled by". These big conglomerates look at wineries as factories and labels as marketing/merchandizing and mix them to maximize sales.

That being said as the story about the Meomi sale was headlined "Never Underestimate American's Taste for Cheap Sweet Wines".

And that's OK, many will never appreciate dry wines, but yes I'd encourage them to try!

MooreTrucker said:

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htxag09 said:

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Wine is such an interesting segment when you think about. Pick up any food in the grocery store and it's going to tell you exactly what went into that product.

I believe the EU is making a big push to have ingredients required on labeling. I understand it's complicated and will also come at a cost, but I, for one, am for it.

Are wood chips added flor flavor, mega purple, sugar, etc.? Could also even go farther, residual sugar levels, acid, etc.

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I'd be happy if blends would actually list the wines used in the blends.

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Evidently the younger generation doesn't care about it at all. They want to know if you've added egg whites, sugar, sulphur, etc. Pour a glass and have some reading. I included Joe's tweet because it made me laugh.

Hurricane evacuation wines:

2018 Teeter Totter Chard
2013 River Marie Occidental Ridge Pinot
2013 Pott Le Nouveau Western cab sauv

htxag09 said:

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Wine is such an interesting segment when you think about. Pick up any food in the grocery store and it's going to tell you exactly what went into that product.

I believe the EU is making a big push to have ingredients required on labeling. I understand it's complicated and will also come at a cost, but I, for one, am for it.

Are wood chips added flor flavor, mega purple, sugar, etc.? Could also even go farther, residual sugar levels, acid, etc.

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I would like to know if flavor enhancements are added, like Mega Purple.


but you want them to list oak/fermentation treatment? what about brix and initial acidity? do you want to know if sugar or acid were added? or what temps were used during fermentation? when grapes picked?

sulphur occurs naturally in wine making and some can be added. what kind of labeling is needed?



I would like to see some additions, myself, but I think it is a bit more complicated than everyone recognizes and updating labels, etc., could be an administrative issue for the smaller guys.

I don't like anything being legislated.

And in addition to the already required elements (of most interest to me is produced by / bottled by / barreled by / cellared by )

the only two I could see that are workable are:

Aged xx months in oak barrels (latest numbers I've seen are that about $25/bottle is the cutoff for barrel aging and oak "alternatives" )

Sugar added

But I don't think these are necessary at all.

Definitely said it was more complicated than it lets on. But that's not to say it can't be done. I'd imagine food manufacturers made the same arguments.

But the lack of clarity in wine labeling is mind boggling to me. As said, can say Cabernet Sauvignon and have 25% Syrah. Can add mega purple to change the color, gelatin to change the texture, sugar to change the sweetness, and don't have to tell anyone.

I generally know the background of the wines i drink. A lot of times I've been to the vineyard, walked through the process with the wine maker, etc. But it'd be nice to walk down the wine aisle and try new wines without having to pick up the phone and doing research to know what you're getting. To be honest, I just avoid pretty much all big name wines because i assume they have a lot of additives to get a consistent product and don't just let the wine come through. I don't want to pick up a new cab for $50, open it up and realize that it's an extremely sweet wine.

I thought about this some after reading the article and it makes sense. Folks these days are fitness-oriented and get info from the webs telling them to always looks at labels to see ingredients like sugar, whole grains, etc. and calories and fat in everything. So I can see how they want that same info on wines as well. Part of the fitness brainwashing.

Here's something I just read related to this, published on Tuesday:

A Deep Dive Into the Many, Verifiably False Claims of 'Clean Wine' Companies

Very interesting article, thanks. The "clean wine" adds look like something you'd see in Facebook.

People also misunderstand that many things used, i.e. "additives", to make wine, don't end up in the wine...

And that sulfites appear in wine naturally.

MooreTrucker said:

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And that sulfites appear in wine naturally.

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Yes, but there's sulfur added at every step along the way, including just prior to bottling. It the primary antibacterial. Damn near impossible to make wine w/out it. And I would say it is impossible to make wines that will age very long (like 5 years or more) w/out added sulfur.

cecil77 said:

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I don't like anything being legislated.

And in addition to the already required elements (of most interest to me is produced by / bottled by / barreled by / cellared by )

the only two I could see that are workable are:

Aged xx months in oak barrels (latest numbers I've seen are that about $25/bottle is the cutoff for barrel aging and oak "alternatives" )

Sugar added

But I don't think these are necessary at all.

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Cecil:

I agree on not mandating disclosures on labels. Frankly, if the wine is pricey enough that blends, aging, etc. matters you can typically get the spec sheets on the winery websites. If they want to charge a high price and don't want to disclose on their websites, I raise an eyebrow.

I think the aging disclosure on a label creates more issues. Where do you stop? Aged (xx) months in oak. Is that French or American? What percentage is new? I like to read all of that, but just post it on the website.

I guess Caymus would now be: "Aged For less than 12 months in steel vats with oak flavoring and lots of sugar added"

Some of this clean wine stuff reminds me of Gwyneth Paltrow and her vajayjay jade eggs.

dp.

I love that place. We were just talking to our friends who we give a bottle of every vintage. They opened the 2013 the other night and they said it blew away a Scarecrow they went side by side with. I plan on opening a 2010 later this year.

Hurricane evac wines part two:

2013 Realm Bard
2004 Les Eres
2010 Seven Stones

The Seven Stones was absolutely wonderful. The Les Eres was amazing and a nice change of pace from CA cabs. When the 2013 Bard is your third place wine, you know it was a good night!!!

BSD said:

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I love that place. We were just talking to our friends who we give a bottle of every vintage. They opened the 2013 the other night and they said it blew away a Scarecrow they went side by side with. I plan on opening a 2010 later this year.

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Unfortunately, I'm not on the list yet (and who knows when (if) I ever will). But Alex was great to visit with and graciously shared a bottle with us. Incredible place.

Once those contracts with Mondavi expire, you may get your wish!

Yeah, there's no love lost there.

Been doing some buying on the Last Bottle marathon today. Was wondering if anyone has ever tried anything from Tank Garage in Calistoga. Looks like they have some fun blends to try out that get some pretty good reviews.

I've been there and really enjoyed the wines they do and put out. Have a Bordeaux style blend of theirs in my wine fridge right now. Tasting room is basically set up like an old garage. Was standing space only pretty much, but with Covid they're tasting with seats outside right now it looks like. Anyways, fun and tasty wines.

I've seen a couple of theirs pop up on the marathon so far for $16 each. Seems like a good deal to try something different.

mek94 said:

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I've seen a couple of theirs pop up on the marathon so far for $16 each. Seems like a good deal to try something different.

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I've picked up about 2 cases so far, including a few bottles from Tank Garage.

I stayed across the street from Tank Garage a few years back and walked over on a lark. I thought it generally good with a couple misses. Mainly pop and pours but I liked that they tried different blends and techniques. In that they are unique in the Napa Valley, though less so when compared to other regions. (I do understand that they largely source their grapes from all over California and not primarily Napa. They are a Napa winery by postal address.)

I bought a "Rattle and Roll" which is a 51% pinot gris, though technically an orange wine so it had a little more depth and honeysuckle/ apricot notes. But it was good on a hot day in June when we drank it. The richer notes helped it have some flavor when cooled down. In the end, I think this representative of the winery. Jack of all Trades, master of none. Of course, that pretty much summarizes my professional career, so maybe why I like them overall.

(In terms of marketing and design, they are top notch. If you want to impress someone who doesn't care about wine other than the label, highly recommend. They'll probably like the wine too. This also isn't a slight as I have a number of friends like that. Or at least people who tolerate me.)

Any other good recommendations you've seen in the marathon? I've noticed they are cycling through some of the wines again. I'm getting close to a case, need to pick up more.

I rarely find stuff on there that I've had, so I generally use it to find and try new things. I look the wines up on cellar tracker if I have time, but mostly I just buy on a whim.

The Waypoint wines all have decent reviews/ratings on Cellar Tracker, I picked up a few yesterday but I have not tried them in the past. Sandhi and Evening Land pinots are very good as well, I've seen a few of those pop up during this sale but was too slow to snag them.

I generally look for things I know on these types of sales, so wines from producers or regions i like. I've picked up some Paso Robles stuff, some Mark Herold/Flux, champagnes, Sauternes, cabs unknown to me but from places I tend to like (e.g. spring mountain, Rutherford, Oakville, to kalon, etc.). In the past I've picked up wines from some of my favorites on this sale (e.g. Aaron Pott (Blackbird label), Mike Smith (Scarlett label), Paolo Scavino Barolo). Have not lucked into any of those this year.

Sounds like we are on the same page, except I check them against Vivino. Did get some of the Waypoint and Mark Herold. If you like Paso cab's the J Wilkes for $14 is pretty darn good.

I picked up some decent bottles this afternoon, good Paso wines from Linne Calodo and Derby, more Waypoint, and some Rotie Cellars Walla Walla syrah. The usually sneak in some crazy stuff toward the end - d'Yquem sometimes pops up.