Love to hear about the NYC events aftermath and have a link or a PDF . Thanks Cecil!

HTown: as opposed to many on this board, I'm more slanted to find, as you call it, the best cheap wine I can. I'm getting better as time goes on with sub-$30 bottles, and I'm fine with that.

That being said, what offering, if I may ask, are you referencing?

I found the Domaine du Pouy at Austin Wine Merchant.

Vivino says I had the 2011 in 2014. Thought it sounded familiar. Thanks for response.

"a huge success" is my only feedback so far. I'll have a complete report soon.

HTownAg98 said:

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I found the Domaine du Pouy at Austin Wine Merchant.

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any idea if anyone in Houston is carrying it? flavor profile sounds right up my alley for the summer.

DSMerchants is the distributor, so find out where the distribute in Houston and go from there.

My notes say I got it at Spec's. Probably on Jones Road/290. So if that store had it, would think the larger ones did too.

For the record, I wasn't a big fan and gave it 2.5 stars.

I'll check it our for less than $10, and vintage can play a big role in a wine like that

Fair point. Even more so realizing I was drinking that 3 years post-vintage and you enjoyed yours only 1 year removed. Error in judgment on my part.

https://www.thedailymeal.com/drink/spurning-common-wisdom-make-200-texas-wine

Very interesting article. Raises issues/topics that I'd be interested in hearing (not typing here): terroir vs. non-terroir; the economics of high(er) priced TX wines.

Yeah, needs discussing over wine!

I'm all in that's it's "how" as opposed to "where".

Plant physiologists have long disproved soils creating flavor molecules in grapes. Now the wine mystics (i.e. terroirists) are surmising that it's local microbes ON the grapes that are responsible for differences. However that still doesn't explain vines mere yards apart in Burgundy producing wine 10X the price of each other.

My guess is that there are myriad subtle clonal differences, encouraged by years and years of wine growers selecting the best vines. That's the only way that vineyards next to each other can produce very different grapes.

However, many times discussions of terroir quickly become "religious" in nature. It is so deeply ingrained in the wine mythos that sometimes remaining rational is difficult for people.

Inwood's 2015 Mericana cab was release a few months ago at $99.50. If anything, it's sold faster than anticipated.

I don't know that anyone really thinks "soil" imparts flavor. Obviously, though, how the grapes grow impacts flavor and soil in relation to moisture and sun plays a role in that.

I don't know if your clonal theory is right or not, but it is interesting. It seems the most pronounced in Burgundy red wines, so maybe there is something unique about pinot? plants change differently with age?

Do you read a lot of J. Goode's blog or books? He's into the science of the grape and flavor, too.

I've read a bunch, not sure about his. Burgundy is a good example. If a clonal generation is about 20 years, they've had 200 of them. Owners propogate the best vines, the owner next door propogates different ones.

And yeah, the soil/flavor thing is well disproven, but you still read of "calciferous soils" "minerality" and such, even though calciferous soil can't create calcium molecules in grapes.

Yes, it takes dirt to grow the vine and different dirt will grow vines differently. And of course weather is a huge part. However the DNA of the grape and the polyphenols that DNA allows to develop is (IMO) by far the biggest contributor of flavor. It's up to the grower to maximize the polyphenol production and that's where locale can play a huge role if not accounted for. If a vineyard in the Hill Country of Texas tries to grow vines and yield grapes EXACTLY like they do in Napa, the grapes will not be as good as Napa. However if appropriate vineyard architecture and proper yield control are utilized then, yes, grapes can be grown in the Hill Country every bit as good as any grown in Napa. However, the economics are different. Here there may be 1.5 tons per acre yield or even lower. Then again vineyard land here is under $10,000 per acre, contrasted to Napa at (whatever obscene figure you choose to quote).

This is all still blowing my mind but I've been following along as you've been touting this idea and starting to come around.

How far do you think you can take this idea though? Can you apply the same practices to pinot noir planted under blistering Texas sun and expect Sonoma coast or Oregon quality? Seems even tougher to wrap your mind around, but if you can grow chardonnay in Dallas county that tastes like Chablis then I guess anything is possible. I need to get my hands on some of this juice.

There is some Texas Pinot, but I've not tried it. It can be too hot/cold/humid/dry for grapevines to grow, of course. As to what particular grape varieties need, yeah, that Chardonnay grown near Cedar Hill is a pretty good example that "what we all know" isn't necessarily the entirety of it.

And I don't know the extent. I do think that the mystical fog rolling through the Valleys is pretty much a croc, though.

And I've got plenty of it. Or come on down and your tasting is on me!

Roy Piper video blog

Listen to the description of the 2015 Napa growing season. A vintage he calls one of Napa's best ever.

The conditions are suspiciously close to what you'd get right here in Texas!

Thanks Cecil! Terroir is just bunk and marketing . Have you read the book about wine myths by Mark Mathews that came out last year? Very convincing. He takes aim at excessive pruning as well, however, he wasn't talk inking about extreme growing regions, so Texas maybe the exception.

Yes! I've read it. Did you find it a difficult read? His presentation jumped around a lot. I found it best to read the conclusion to the entire book first. Then for each chapter I read the conclusion first and then went through his argument.

His argument against HYLQ (High Yield Low Quality) is based on ideal growing conditions.As you mention, he does allude to harsh growing conditions altering things. I'd love to discuss this stuff some time. That chapter was of particular interest, so I've got highlights and notes all over it. For example he says:

Quote:

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For fruit at similar maturity, the empirical evidence argues strongly that factors other than yield (such as water availability) are important in determining fruit composition.

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However water availability is one of the things that alters yield. So there's a bit of a logical disconnect. I think he tried to isolate that one parameter away from individual vintages and their weather conditions, which you really can't do. Yield is tied into weather, vine spacing, trellising, pruning, fruit drop, vineyard aspect and even more I think. But the ultimate point is that the phenolics are the prime components of flavor, and that DNA determines what they can be, not terroir.

Who are some of the leading public detractors on the terroir angle? I ask because I'd like send those names to my contact who runs Wines For Normal People to get her to have him/her on her podcast for a discussion/debate.

cecil,

I guess that is my newb question, are phenolics for certain the prime creators of flavor? Seems they are clearly the prime drivers of tannins and color by science. but is it certain for flavor? It seems logical they are, but I'm asking if that is scientifically linked or if there are varying opinions.


A lot of this is fascinating to me and one of the reasons I think in the US vintages matter less than in the old world where ripening is still an issue. In the US, major growing regions are warm enough and get enough sun that a skilled vineyard manager and winemaker should be able to make good wine no matter what (obviously yields will change by year)

cecil, J Goode's most recent book was last year and it was somewhat controversial. It is title I Taste Red: The Science of Tasting Wine.

excerpt :"I Taste Red is the first book of its kind to address and relate all the different sensory and psychological factors that shape our experience of tasting wine."

Seems to fit with this discussion a bit

Thanks, I'll look it up.

I was just about to post "What, precisely, is "flavor" anyway?"

Wine is a sensory experience, heck mere temperature affects "flavor" in a big way and there's nothing chemical about it. As to polyphenols, here's a paragraph from The Oxford Companion to Wine:

Quote:

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...include many natural color pigments such as the anthocyanins of fruit and dark-skinned grapes, most natural vegetable tannins such as occur in grapes, and many flavor compounds

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I think that polyphenols are the most variable contributors to flavors (i.e. from variety to variety, clone to clone, vintage to vintage) but their overall contribution to the "total flavor" (whatever that means) I'm not sure.

And I think your contention about ripeness is spot on. Throw in optical sorters which tend to homogenize the grapes (eliminating under ripe grapes) used from a particular crop and the vintage-to-vintage sameness is exacerbated even more. Now add in hyper extraction techniques (e.g. cryo and flash) and there's even more "sameness".

If this has been discussed on here, sorry.

Watched "Decanted." last night, featuring Reynolds Family and some bits with "Texan" Mike Martin. Martin clearly looks to be wearing an Aggie ring, and, in one scene, Steve Reynolds is sporting an old Aggie shirt.

Thought the movie, while not earth-shattering or extraordinary, was enjoyable.

Agreed about the clarity and style of the book. It is a hard read and I can digest a little bit at a time. I would enjoy the chance for an indepth discussion, and when I am in Texas this fall, I would love to try some of the better Texas wines. The couple that I have had are better than they were in the 90s . I would love to find one of the better Tempranillos.

With no modesty whatsoever, Dan Gatlin makes the best Tempranillo in Texas.

The event went longer than anticipated with 15 wine writers/wine media people attending. Comments were very enthusiastic, even with a robust discussion of how Inwood could better get the word out on its wine. One veteran writer remarked that having attended over a thousand wine presentations over 26 years that this was the "second best" presentation he'd ever been through, exceeded only by some Bordeaux icon whose name I've forgotten.

The wife and I need to stop by and do that paired tasting.

Just call a couple days before.

And please do. When there's some left I get to have it after work!

If you're lucky we can sweet talk him into tasting a couple of the new Bordeaux blends...

Cecil: Does Dan routinely give interviews? I think he'd be a pretty cool, and different, guest on the wine podcast I'm always referencing. Plus, I know she's never had a Texas winemaker.

Yes, he does. Takes some scheduling of course. It would be fun to see if we could make it happen!

Cool. Let me start a dialogue with her about it. I'll keep in touch.

bularry said:

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cecil, J Goode's most recent book was last year and it was somewhat controversial. It is title I Taste Red: The Science of Tasting Wine.

excerpt :"I Taste Red is the first book of its kind to address and relate all the different sensory and psychological factors that shape our experience of tasting wine."

Seems to fit with this discussion a bit

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Just getting into it. I love it! This is exactly a resource I've been wanting. Believe it or not, my presentation (when warranted by interested tasters) actually talks about proteins in saliva reacting with tannins, "sticky" molecules, long chain polymers and such.

Thanks for the recommendation. It's gonna take awhile to get through all of it (and probably a couple of re-readings).

In addition to Wine for Normal People, I've been listening to another awesome podcast:
"The Inside Winemaking Podcast with Jim Duane"

Jim's the winemaker at Seavey, and he brings on other winemakers to talk shop. The guests really open up to Jim, and give the listener a window into the challenges that a winemaker faces. Highly recommend.