98Ag99Grad said:

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and after listening to several podcasts about this I'm firmly in the camp of go with data, forget buddies if they aren't a fit for the course. We're pairing you with this guy because every stat says you will play to each others strengths and weaknesses. Sorry Scottie and Sam but you just don't work.

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Yea. If any part of the rationale for taking Burns was "that's who Scottie wants to play with and Scottie's #1", then that's a failure on ZJ's part. I was hopeful that maybe there were some data/course fit reasons why he made it. IMO he's a tough competitor and generally has the right mental makeup.

He didn't have any business being out there in foursomes though. Especially not in the tone-setting first match out against two world class ball strikers in Rahm and Hatton. That's on ZJ.

But I also think Burns was pretty low on the list of problems with this team. If we had limited him to four ball and singles (where he should have been), we might be talking about him has a success story.

You honestly think this was decided by the tail-end of our roster and not, say, the No. 1 player in the world failing to earn a point and posting the worst foursome loss in history?

Burns and JT weren't great, but they were both better than Scheffler and Xander, who were supposed to anchor this team. To me, it starts (and ends) there.

Actually stats say Young was a no brainer to be on this squad. The course rewarded driving and long iron play which he excels in. Give the recent Fried Egg podcast a listen. They have a good breakdown of how pairings should be made and how we once again look clueless.

cb1919 said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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I really don't care about the Ryder Cup at Bethpage. It's going to be set up just like Whistling Straits was in 2021. I'm all about the Ryder Cup in 2027. I'm sick of the US team getting their asses kicked in Europe.

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Significantly different golf course

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I meant in that it's going to be set up to be a bombers paradise that gives a big advantage to the American big hitters.

cb1919 said:

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The last two captains picks could've been guys from TexAgs and it wouldn't have mattered. The #11 and #12 player on your team don't matter when your best players go 3-7-2 and their best players go 9-1-3. That's the cup, 4 points v 10.5 points.

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Somebody is reading my blog!

Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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cb1919 said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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I really don't care about the Ryder Cup at Bethpage. It's going to be set up just like Whistling Straits was in 2021. I'm all about the Ryder Cup in 2027. I'm sick of the US team getting their asses kicked in Europe.

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Significantly different golf course

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I meant in that it's going to be set up to be a bombers paradise that gives a big advantage to the American big hitters.

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This is the most tired take. Simply not true anymore that there is a disparity between the squads in this regard.

yeah the only guys not full time on PGAT are McIntyre and Hojgarrd. Everyone else is playing the same courses every week and doing the same thing.

Here's this year's driving distance stats. Rory and Rahm were the only 2 Ryder Cup participants in the top 10.

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/stats/pga-tour/drive-distance/

98Ag99Grad said:

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Actually stats say Young was a no brainer to be on this squad. The course rewarded driving and long iron play which he excels in. Give the recent Fried Egg podcast a listen. They have a good breakdown of how pairings should be made and how we once again look clueless.

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I will, thanks for the recommendation.

JCA1 said:

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You honestly think this was decided by the tail-end of our roster and not, say, the No. 1 player in the world failing to earn a point and posting the worst foursome loss in history?

Burns and JT weren't great, but they were both better than Scheffler and Xander, who were supposed to anchor this team. To me, it starts (and ends) there.

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There are obviously alot of ways to break this down and you make a very good point regarding Scheffler and Xander as well. We'll never know.

JCA1 said:

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You honestly think this was decided by the tail-end of our roster and not, say, the No. 1 player in the world failing to earn a point and posting the worst foursome loss in history?

Burns and JT weren't great, but they were both better than Scheffler and Xander, who were supposed to anchor this team. To me, it starts (and ends) there.

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Burns was 3rd on the team in strokes gained. I know people will see 1-2, but it wasn't his fault he was matched up to Rory.

Clark surprisingly was the worst overall player. He was #1 after Friday, but flat terrible Saturday and Sunday.

Scheffler the most disappointing. 0-2-2 and negative strokes gained while Hovland, Rahm, and Rory all lived up to their top 5 in the world ranking.

Of course Fleetwood, who can't win PGA event, played out of his mind, too.

CyclingAg82 said:

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JCA1 said:

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You honestly think this was decided by the tail-end of our roster and not, say, the No. 1 player in the world failing to earn a point and posting the worst foursome loss in history?

Burns and JT weren't great, but they were both better than Scheffler and Xander, who were supposed to anchor this team. To me, it starts (and ends) there.

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There are obviously alot of ways to break this down and you make a very good point regarding Scheffler and Xander as well. We'll never know.

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No doubt. The Captain's picks, pairings, boys' club, etc. provide the most fertile ground for second guessing and gave people something to complain about so I think that's why people are drawn to them. But, the reality is, no one on our team, with the exception of Homa, played well. You're never going to win anything with only 1 out of 12 playing well.

Homa and Cantlay.

Chipotlemonger said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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cb1919 said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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I really don't care about the Ryder Cup at Bethpage. It's going to be set up just like Whistling Straits was in 2021. I'm all about the Ryder Cup in 2027. I'm sick of the US team getting their asses kicked in Europe.

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Significantly different golf course

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I meant in that it's going to be set up to be a bombers paradise that gives a big advantage to the American big hitters.

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This is the most tired take. Simply not true anymore that there is a disparity between the squads in this regard.

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Fair enough. I shouldn't have said big advantage. I imagine the setup will be the opposite of how Europe sets the course up. The Americans obviously suck at the Euro setup.

The course setup is still an advantage to the home team especially if it is the USA and you have wide fairways, little rough, longer course with 4 Par 5's in good length and put pin placements in the middle of the green.

You could easily have at least 8 long hitters (or more) for Team USA in 2025 at Bethpage Black with guys like JT, Brooks, Clark, Scottie, Cam Young, Cantlay, Theegala, Homa Finau, Burns, Bradley and maybe even Bryson and DJ in there. All of those guys are in the Top 60 on the PGA Tour driving distance stats this year (not including Brooks, Bryson and DJ). But if you setup the course long with wide fairways, then those big hitters can take aim at the middle of the green aggressively and create more opportunities for eagles and birdies thus keeping the crowd rowdy and engaged

However only 4 guys for the current Team Europe's Ryder cups players are in the Top 60 (Rory, Viktor, Rahm and Fitzpatrick who is at #60 at 304.1)

The current tour average in driving distance is 299.8 which is about 94th in the standings. Scottie, Burns, Young, Clark all average 310 or more. I am sure guys like Bryson, Brooks and DJ would be in the Top 25-30 in driving distance.

Current Team Europe RC players right around the tour average or lower are Lowry, Fleetwood, Straka, Rose, etc.

Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Chipotlemonger said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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cb1919 said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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I really don't care about the Ryder Cup at Bethpage. It's going to be set up just like Whistling Straits was in 2021. I'm all about the Ryder Cup in 2027. I'm sick of the US team getting their asses kicked in Europe.

---

Significantly different golf course

---

I meant in that it's going to be set up to be a bombers paradise that gives a big advantage to the American big hitters.

---

This is the most tired take. Simply not true anymore that there is a disparity between the squads in this regard.

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Fair enough. I shouldn't have said big advantage. I imagine the setup will be the opposite of how Europe sets the course up. The Americans obviously suck at the Euro setup.

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The set up has certainly mattered in the past but I don't think the set up played any role this week. The main difference was the Euros made putts (and chips) and we didn't.

There's really no difference in the style of play between the two teams anymore.

HeyAbbott said:

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The course setup is still an advantage to the home team especially if it is the USA and you have wide fairways, little rough, longer course with 4 Par 5's in good length and put pin placements in the middle of the green.

You could easily have at least 8 long hitters (or more) for Team USA in 2025 at Bethpage Black with guys like JT, Brooks, Clark, Scottie, Cam Young, Cantlay, Theegala, Homa Finau, Burns, Bradley and maybe even Bryson and DJ in there. All of those guys are in the Top 60 on the PGA Tour driving distance stats this year (not including Brooks, Bryson and DJ). But if you setup the course long with wide fairways, then those big hitters can take aim at the middle of the green aggressively and create more opportunities for eagles and birdies thus keeping the crowd rowdy and engaged

However only 4 guys for the current Team Europe's Ryder cups players are in the Top 60 (Rory, Viktor, Rahm and Fitzpatrick who is at #60 at 304.1)

The current tour average in driving distance is 299.8 which is about 94th in the standings. Scottie, Burns, Young, Clark all average 310 or more. I am sure guys like Bryson, Brooks and DJ would be in the Top 25-30 in driving distance.

Current Team Europe RC players right around the tour average or lower are Lowry, Fleetwood, Straka, Rose, etc.

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Aberg just hasn't played enough to qualify for the stats. But he averages over 320, which would put him near the top. Between Rahm, Rory, Hovland and Aberg, the Euros will likely have the 4 longest hitters. Hojgaard averaged 315 as well and Hatton and Fitzy are no slouches. I would say that probably gives them the advantage, even if the bottom half of the US team is a little longer on average.

JCA1 said:

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HeyAbbott said:

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The course setup is still an advantage to the home team especially if it is the USA and you have wide fairways, little rough, longer course with 4 Par 5's in good length and put pin placements in the middle of the green.

You could easily have at least 8 long hitters (or more) for Team USA in 2025 at Bethpage Black with guys like JT, Brooks, Clark, Scottie, Cam Young, Cantlay, Theegala, Homa Finau, Burns, Bradley and maybe even Bryson and DJ in there. All of those guys are in the Top 60 on the PGA Tour driving distance stats this year (not including Brooks, Bryson and DJ). But if you setup the course long with wide fairways, then those big hitters can take aim at the middle of the green aggressively and create more opportunities for eagles and birdies thus keeping the crowd rowdy and engaged

However only 4 guys for the current Team Europe's Ryder cups players are in the Top 60 (Rory, Viktor, Rahm and Fitzpatrick who is at #60 at 304.1)

The current tour average in driving distance is 299.8 which is about 94th in the standings. Scottie, Burns, Young, Clark all average 310 or more. I am sure guys like Bryson, Brooks and DJ would be in the Top 25-30 in driving distance.

Current Team Europe RC players right around the tour average or lower are Lowry, Fleetwood, Straka, Rose, etc.

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Aberg just hasn't played enough to qualify for the stats. But he averages over 320, which would put him near the top. Between Rahm, Rory, Hovland and Aberg, the Euros will likely have the 4 longest hitters. Hojgaard averaged 315 as well and Hatton and Fitzy are no slouches. I would say that probably gives them the advantage, even if the bottom half of the US team is a little longer on average.

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This just isn't quite true, but I still give a big advantage to the Euros in driving (more due to accuracy). A couple bombers, but distance edges to the US. I'm not saying one way or the other on course setup, but here are the rankings, just using this year's participants, here is driving distance for 2022-2023:

1) Rory: 326.3
8) Rahm: 314.0
11) Clark: 313.5
17) Burns: 311.4
25) Scheffler: 310.3
NR) MacIntyre: 310.06 (Euro)
35) Cantlay: 308.6
NR) Keopka: 308.0 (LIV)
37) JT: 308.5
39) Fowler: 307.8
41) Hovland: 307.6
44) Hatton: 306.5
52) Homa: 304.8
60) Fitzpatrick: 304.1
65) Lowry: 303.8
67) Spieth: 303.6
71) Schaffele: 303.3
78) Fleetwood: 302.3
98) Straka: 299.5
132) Rose: 295.2
138) Morikawa: 294.7
144) Harman: 293.9

Not Ranked: Aberg, Hojgaard, but both are pretty long.
https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/101

Now combine length + Accuracy using SG Off the Tee for 2022-2023:

1) Scheffler: 1.021
2) Rory: .907
3) Cantlay: .852
7) Hovland: .741
13) Hatton: .533
18) Morikawa: .487
29) Lowry: .408
30) Fleetwood: .388
33) Rahm: .360
41) Homa: .317
45) Burns: .266
46) Schauffele: .265
50) Harman: .241
54) Fitzpatrick: .211
58) Spieth: .200
59) JT: .198
66) Clark: .139
68) Fowler: .126
102) Straka: -.010
107) Rose: -.044
Not Ranked: Aberg, Hojgaard, MacIntyre, Koepka
https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/02567

So in reality it is more about accuracy off the tee than about distance, at least for this team. Cam Young would have helped, being 9th off the tee at .597. Theegala is 125th at -.139. Finau is 43rd at .288. Cam Young probably should have been picked over burns in hindsight, but this

In some ways, I'm not sure it's worth worrying about how we're going to setup Bethpage yet. We'll look at our team personnel in late summer 2025 against theirs and see what gives us the biggest advantage statistically.

94 guys average, AVERAGE, 300 +. That's insane.

Rickie has just joined the Concessions Golf Tour where every ball that is on the green in regulation is automatically conceded!

Assume you are in charge of Team USA's Ryder Cup effort for the next 2 RC in 2025 in NYC and 2027 in Ireland. Who would you choose as the US team captain and how would you go about preparing for those 2 competitions?

You're right about Hovland. He's not as long as I thought he was. But Aberg is. Add him to the list and the Euros likely have the 3 longest hitters of realistic Ryder Cup participants. And Hojgaard would be right around Clark and Scheffler in distance. I think my point still largely stands.

True. But I think you also hope Cam Young gets into that mix because he is a fantastic driver. Add in a DJ or Bryson once this LIV stuff gets washed out and it'll be a different story. I don't think either of them makes a difference last weekend, but if we're just looking for drivers of the golf ball, we aren't that far behind.

Buck Compton said:

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True. But I think you also hope Cam Young gets into that mix because he is a fantastic driver. Add in a DJ or Bryson once this LIV stuff gets washed out and it'll be a different story. I don't think either of them makes a difference last weekend, but if we're just looking for drivers of the golf ball, we aren't that far behind.

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Agreed. My main point is we're definitely not appreciably longer and a case can be made that the Euros may actually be longer. The days of setting up courses where we can bomb it over the fairway bunkers and they can't are over.

The stats clearly show the depth that Team USA has from Player 1 to Player 12 is longer off the tee than the Top 12 Team Europe players have even with Rory and Rahm.

We're gonna set Bethpage up with thousands of drunk, rowdy New Yorkers. That's all we'll need

We don't have all the data to know what the actual advantages or disadvantages are from a course set up standpoint.
Both sides have an analytics team that are looking at a whole lot more than the year long averages and strokes gained data we can see.
They have every shot these guys have ever hit on shotlink. They know dispersion patterns off the tee and on approach, approach proximities from different yardages, they probably even have shot shape data and a million other data points. Not to mention putting. Does my team have an edge in putting from inside 15'? Maybe I set pins that are more accessible. If not, maybe I set pins where nobody can get close.
And it doesn't have to be a team wide advantage, or even a big one. But every little advantage you can find and expose in the first 2 days gives you a cushion going into singles.
I've got a buddy i play with and we're about the same skill level, if you put our general stats on paper you'd see no difference. But if you give either one of us the course set up, we can make it miserable for the other.
It's a simplified example, and the margins are much smaller in an event like this, but those analytics guys know how to find the tendencies. And as long as we allow the home team to set up the course, we'll continue to see these large home team win margins.

I'm not sure what course setup advantage the US has? Make the fairways wider with less rough...sure it doesn't hurt USA as much as Marco Simone did, but it doesn't give them a big advantage over Europe. Maybe the only thing would be to have the setup so you have more wedges (thanks Azinger) coming into the greens and put some pins in tough locations.