Agree. I did a quick search for the fairways hit statistic but I couldn't find anything. I would like to see if there was a significant difference. Clearly the Euros wanted the rough to be up, playing to their belief they were better off the tee.Deluxe said:It was the exact same story in 2014 and 2018. We knew we had to get our foursomes lineup optimized this go around.pbrancazio said:
Euros 7-1 in foursomes was backbreaking.
Scottie, Cantlay, Xander and Morikawa - our best ball strikers that we really needed to count on in that format - weren't ready to play from the jump. And we got smoked.
Ryder Cup 2023 thread
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Last: 1 yr ago by 98Ag99Grad
Pin placements were a bigger key as Team Europe put them near water, penalty hazards or on top of slopes and mounds to make it more difficult for Team USA to be aggressive with their iron shots.
Deluxe with some good analysis there
Agree to disagree. I like this aspect. That's what home field advantage should be. It's golf, everyone plays the same course.aggiegolfer2012 said:
the discussion needs to be had about limiting the home team's involvement on course set up.
Not to mention, it isn't like the venue is a surprise. Captain can consider this when using his picks.
Pins were placed hard to disadvantage USA? What? Perhaps you have a point here but not seeing it.HeyAbbott said:
Pin placements were a bigger key as Team Europe put them near water, penalty hazards or on top of slopes and mounds to make it more difficult for Team USA to be aggressive with their iron shots.
The size of the cup has been an issue for Scottie
Just look at the pin placements on 16, 17 and 18. It was tough to get the ball in close range on those holes and that plays to Team Europe's advantage at home when Team USA wasn't making very many birdies.
Yeah, sorry, I just think it's a weak excuse and reasoning. Pins on back 9s on the final round of tournaments are tougher every single Sunday. Team USA sucked, it's not more complicated than that IMO.
Team Europe played better than Team USA this week. Go back and look at the pin placements in past Ryder Cups where the US at home puts them in the middle of the greens to maximize eagle and birdie opportunities on longer courses while Team Europe wants more rough, shorter courses and pin placements in tough areas to minimize the birdie opportunities for Team USA
I thought part of the new captain's agreement is that course setup can't be altered the week of the tournament.
In 2012, the USA thought the pins were too tough in the final round... leading to some costly bogeys coming down the stretch and a blown 10-6 lead. So they overcompensated in 2016 with super easy pins.
I'm not sure if that's when they updated the captain's agreement, but I don't think the home captain even even decides pin placement anymore. At the very least, I don't think the home captain can dictate harder/easier pins on Sunday based on how the scoreboard looks on Saturday night. Could be wrong though.
In 2012, the USA thought the pins were too tough in the final round... leading to some costly bogeys coming down the stretch and a blown 10-6 lead. So they overcompensated in 2016 with super easy pins.
I'm not sure if that's when they updated the captain's agreement, but I don't think the home captain even even decides pin placement anymore. At the very least, I don't think the home captain can dictate harder/easier pins on Sunday based on how the scoreboard looks on Saturday night. Could be wrong though.
Disappointed with how USA players are deflecting on the question of whether they were really prepared for the event.
Like everyone knows, only Max/JT made an effort to get some tournament reps in before two weeks before. Brooks did too cuz LIV had an event.
There's something to be said for the idea of rest, but ZERO of those players would prepare for a major by not playing a tournament for five weeks. Anything suggested to the contrary is asinine.
Maybe it's possible that a few of the guys have come off a long layoff and won their first start. That's been a common excuse so far. But when they won that tournament, it was likely because they eased into the tournament week, maybe dusted some cobwebs in the first round and snuck out with a solid round, then turned on the jets later in the week.
At a Ryder Cup on Euro soil, there is no time to ease into the week and play yourself into game shape. You gotta get off the bus that way because the Euros are going to come out swinging. It should be blatantly clear that the only way to treat a Ryder Cup is Europe is to prep for it like it's a major.
I know they're just trying to cover their asses and it's not like they're come out publicly and be like "yea, we effed that up bad". But I hope behind closed doors, it's being talked about at length. Max/JT need to get on some guys as we lead up to 2027.
Like everyone knows, only Max/JT made an effort to get some tournament reps in before two weeks before. Brooks did too cuz LIV had an event.
There's something to be said for the idea of rest, but ZERO of those players would prepare for a major by not playing a tournament for five weeks. Anything suggested to the contrary is asinine.
Maybe it's possible that a few of the guys have come off a long layoff and won their first start. That's been a common excuse so far. But when they won that tournament, it was likely because they eased into the tournament week, maybe dusted some cobwebs in the first round and snuck out with a solid round, then turned on the jets later in the week.
At a Ryder Cup on Euro soil, there is no time to ease into the week and play yourself into game shape. You gotta get off the bus that way because the Euros are going to come out swinging. It should be blatantly clear that the only way to treat a Ryder Cup is Europe is to prep for it like it's a major.
I know they're just trying to cover their asses and it's not like they're come out publicly and be like "yea, we effed that up bad". But I hope behind closed doors, it's being talked about at length. Max/JT need to get on some guys as we lead up to 2027.
I think this is nonsense. Home fans is a big advantage but it's not insurmountable.
His other article probably hits the root cause. Home team dominates foursomes.
If my math is right, add in all of it from this RC the total is 36.5 to 11.5 in foursomes and 59.5 to 56.5 in all other formats since 2012.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/RyderCup2023-europe-routs-us-in-friday-morning-foursomes/amp
Quote:
In the last six Ryder Cups, counting this morning's session, the home team is 33-10 in foursomes, and 50-46 in all other formats. So, there's been an absolute thumping in foursomesincluding just one lost session for the home team in 11 triesand almost even otherwise.
If my math is right, add in all of it from this RC the total is 36.5 to 11.5 in foursomes and 59.5 to 56.5 in all other formats since 2012.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/RyderCup2023-europe-routs-us-in-friday-morning-foursomes/amp
If the US didn't crap the bed on the first and last holes, they might have won this thing. Seems like they were 1-down after the first hole in almost every match and I can remember them coughing up the last hole at least 4 times (3 on Friday and Scheffler today).
The Big 3 for Europe (Viktor/Rahm/Rory) clearly outplayed our top 3 golfers this week (Scottie/Brooks/Cantlay)
bagger05 said:
I think this is nonsense. Home fans is a big advantage but it's not insurmountable.
Not insurmountable, but alt shot is such a difficult format. Lack of rhythm, trying not to let a partner down, etc. really amplifies the pressure. These top players play extremely similar games, so I don't see any way what setup creates a meaningful difference.
AggieDruggist89 said:
Europe wins 16.5
Yup
Deluxe said:Yea. They kept alluding it during the telecast and I thought it was kinda strange.98Ag99Grad said:
So what in course setup favored Europe? The driving stats show very minimal difference in accuracy and a slight advantage in length to Europe. Green speed should also be nullified since most play in America.
At Whistling Straits, our game plan was to force Europe to outgun our guys on a big boy golf course from 175+. I thought the Euro strategy this weekend would be to turn it into a short iron competition (like they did in France).
But when I thought about it more, it kinda made sense. Top to bottom, it's hard to say which team is better with long irons. We had an edge at Whistling Straits, but the teams that showed up at Marco Simone seemed to be much more evenly matched from that range.
To me, the setup was all about catering to Rory's strengths. The Euros knew Hovland was in form and playing like the best player in the world. They also knew Rahm would show up and lead like the fighting Spaniard that he is. If they could get Rory going too, it would be almost impossible for the Americans to overcome that.
Rory's weakness is short irons and wedge play. Luke basically eliminated that aspect of the competition this weekend. Genius IMO. He was an effing beast this week.
But even with Hovland, Rahm and Rory totally going off, we still competed very well against the Euros from Friday afternoon forward. I don't have that many second guesses in terms of who we brought and our strategy. No more than usual anyway.
Like others have said, this weekend was about the Euros big guns getting off the bus on Friday morning ready to ball out and ours needing a full round or two to get back into performance shape. The Euros prepped for this weekend like a major and they were ready to throw punches. Our guys eased into the weekend.
I was impressed with how Scottie, Cantlay, Xander and Morikawa bounced back at certain times on Sat/Sun. Cantlay singe-handedly kept us in it on Saturday. Scottie was a ball-striking god against Rahm. But it was almost too little too late.
We needed those four ready to play on Friday morning and they were not. Hopefully they learned a good lesson because I think the script is going to be similar in 2027. Those are our ball striking studs and we need them ready to play from the jump.
Max and JT should get auto-exemptions to every Ryder Cup indefinitely. Heart and soul of the team.
Scottie/Brooks - Don't take it personally if we ask you to play four ball only in 2027, although Scottie might deserve one more crack at foursomes with Will Z.
Rickie - See ya. Covid, whatever. You've played in three road Ryder Cups. You've had plenty of chances to bring it on the road. It's just not your thing.
Jordan - You're on notice. That was pathetic. New baby, whatever. I bet he would have found a way to prep if it was Augusta. Can't show up looking like that. He better SHOW UP at Bethpage (with his game and leadership) or, tbh, he can stay home too.
Burns, Wyndham, Harman - All showed me something. All fought hard enough to deserve another look in a couple years.
The thing I hate most about the Ryder Cup is that we have to wait another four years to get another crack at the Euros on their soil. We'll probably win at Bethpage in another seemingly unexciting cup. We'll be hungry, out for revenge, have fans/setup on our side. Blah blah blah.
But a win at home in 2025 doesn't mean anything for 2027. Plans need to be put in place going forward to make sure our guys get tournament reps leading up to 2027 and arrive on the first tee ready to fight.
Fantastic post.
He gone. LIV and learn.gigem1223 said:
How the frick do you concede that putt given the ramifications?!
If Zach makes a few better pairings and the US gets a few more points early, how much more fired up is the team going into singles? Zach was a terrible captain and I got tired of hearing him talk about how close this team was. It was all BS.
Outstanding thread. What pisses me off most about the Ryder cup is the European players have incredible camaraderie and our guys just don't. It's in the European golf DNA far more than it is in the US. Otherwise our guys wouldn't have taken 5 weeks off before the event. A friend of a friend was there in person and said our guys resembled a group of dudes who just wanted to play on a trip. Rose, Rory (even though he's a little b**** who I hope never wins another major), Rahm and Lowry, among others, have a killer mentality. Our guys barely have a pulse.
I'd encourage everyone to read this article. It's fantastic and nails the issues we have with Ryder Cup performance.
https://t.co/2F4K3mJ7Ln
I'd encourage everyone to read this article. It's fantastic and nails the issues we have with Ryder Cup performance.
https://t.co/2F4K3mJ7Ln
basic8 said:He gone. LIV and learn.gigem1223 said:
How the frick do you concede that putt given the ramifications?!
It looks like the Smash GC captain wanted to get his PGA Tour teammates in on the LIV action. 😂https://t.co/8eB39kImtl
— SI Golf (@SI_Golf) October 1, 2023
Well Rickie will fit right in with LIV conceding everyone's putts!
Just for some perspective, there's definitely a bias in playing in Europe vs playing at home for our team...in the era of 6 captain's picks (two Ryder Cups), ZJ's picks had a 30% win rate when ties are factored in. Stricker's (granted this was at home) had a 55% win rate. Back overseas, Furyk had two fewer picks but his picks still resulted in only a 16.7% win rate while Davis Love III's picks won at a 53.8% rate.
ZJ's Captain's Picks Records 2023
Spieth 0-2-2 (1pt)
Koepka 1-1-1 (1.5pts)
Morikawa 1-3-0 (1pt)
Burns 1-2-0 (1pt)
Thomas 1-2-1 (1.5pts)
Fowler 0-2-0 (0pts)
Stricker's Captain's Picks 2021
Spieth 1-2-1 (1.5pts)
Finau 1-2-0 (1pt)
Schauffele 3-1-0 (3pts)
English 1-2-0 (1pt)
Berger 2-1-0 (2pts)
Scheffler 2-0-1 (2.5pts)
Furyk's Captains Picks 2018
DeChambeau 0-3-0 (0pts)
Mickelson 0-2-0 (0pts)
Woods 0-4-0 (0pts)
Finau 2-1-0 (2pts)
Davis Love III's Captains Picks 2016
Holmes 1-2-0 (1pt)
Fowler 2-1-0 (2pts)
Kuchar 2-2-0 (2pts)
Moore 2-1-0 (2pts)
ZJ's Captain's Picks Records 2023
Spieth 0-2-2 (1pt)
Koepka 1-1-1 (1.5pts)
Morikawa 1-3-0 (1pt)
Burns 1-2-0 (1pt)
Thomas 1-2-1 (1.5pts)
Fowler 0-2-0 (0pts)
Stricker's Captain's Picks 2021
Spieth 1-2-1 (1.5pts)
Finau 1-2-0 (1pt)
Schauffele 3-1-0 (3pts)
English 1-2-0 (1pt)
Berger 2-1-0 (2pts)
Scheffler 2-0-1 (2.5pts)
Furyk's Captains Picks 2018
DeChambeau 0-3-0 (0pts)
Mickelson 0-2-0 (0pts)
Woods 0-4-0 (0pts)
Finau 2-1-0 (2pts)
Davis Love III's Captains Picks 2016
Holmes 1-2-0 (1pt)
Fowler 2-1-0 (2pts)
Kuchar 2-2-0 (2pts)
Moore 2-1-0 (2pts)
I think 6 captains picks is too many.
More drama/fallout from the US team...
https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/team-usa-threatened-to-boot-xander-schauffele-off-ryder-cup-team/
https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/team-usa-threatened-to-boot-xander-schauffele-off-ryder-cup-team/
Bunk Moreland said:
More drama/fallout from the US team...
https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/team-usa-threatened-to-boot-xander-schauffele-off-ryder-cup-team/
Why the f*** do they need contracts to play in the Ryder Cup??
They contribute to the charity of your choice and most players set up a foundation to receive the payment. That has always been the exchange. Introducing Netflix or other new sources of revenue for the PGA should see an amendment to the amount paid to your foundation or to the player.
cb1919 said:Bunk Moreland said:
More drama/fallout from the US team...
https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/team-usa-threatened-to-boot-xander-schauffele-off-ryder-cup-team/
Why the f*** do they need contracts to play in the Ryder Cup??
The Ryder Cup is big business now. PGA of America is making money off it no doubt. I normally always go with the 'play for pride' side of things...but if I was going to play the Ryder Cup for no money that's one thing...having to agree to a Netflix documentary crew following me and my team around, including in the locker room during our most vulnerable moments when we're trying to play for that pride...all so the PGA of America can make more money off me? Hard no.
Going forward, does anyone else agree that the US team needs to move on from some of these guys like Jim Furyk, Fred Couples, Zach Johnson, etc?
I don't mind Freddy and Furyk, but a hard no to Hairlip JohnsonHubert J. Farnsworth said:
Going forward, does anyone else agree that the US team needs to move on from some of these guys like Jim Furyk, Fred Couples, Zach Johnson, etc?
www.elitellp.net/
Tiger Woods is either the next captain or the one after. Stewart Cink is probably also in consideration. I would really like to see them give it to Tiger at Bethpage. US wins big and they roll him over for a Europe win.
dallasiteinsa02 said:
Tiger Woods is either the next captain or the one after. Stewart Cink is probably also in consideration. I would really like to see them give it to Tiger at Bethpage. US wins big and they roll him over for a Europe win.
Why does everyone think Tiger will make a great captain?
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