What is the rationale for sub-part 5 which states that if the DH is moved to a field position then the pitchers must bat for the rest of the game? I think that's always been the rule for professional baseball and college, but I've never understood why it is. Figured this might be a good time to ask.
***** 2023 Houston Astros Season Thread *****
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Last: 8 mo ago by texasaggie2015
I'm guessing so you can't just shuffle your DH to hit for whoever you want when it's convenient.
Like...Oh hey Meyers is up with 2 men on in the 8th. I'm gonna just slide Yordan into that spot so he can bat for him.
No blue ribbons allowed
Like...Oh hey Meyers is up with 2 men on in the 8th. I'm gonna just slide Yordan into that spot so he can bat for him.
No blue ribbons allowed
Maybe, but when a position player is moved to another field position, his place in the batting order doesn't change.
Wow. Haven't thought about that guy in ages. I agree, he had a pretty good stretch for a while.
As far as Mount Rushmore of under appreciated Stros players I'd think Adam Everett deserves a spot as well as Moises Alou.
Everett arguably greatest defensive player they had in the history of the team and Alou was a very solid hitter. I want to say he even has the best career OPS in team history. Don't hold me to that though.
As far as Mount Rushmore of under appreciated Stros players I'd think Adam Everett deserves a spot as well as Moises Alou.
Everett arguably greatest defensive player they had in the history of the team and Alou was a very solid hitter. I want to say he even has the best career OPS in team history. Don't hold me to that though.
Growing up an Astros fan in that era, my dominant memory of Adam Everett is that he made this year's offense look like the 1927 Yankees.
hate to say it...but the lost tiebreaker to the Blue Jays is a bit worrisome.scd88 said:jah003 said:
Absolutely no way this will bite them in the ass at all.“wAit UnTiL jUNe…”
— Bally Sports Southwest (@BallySportsSW) June 22, 2023
For what? Our largest lead of the season? pic.twitter.com/aS5O0uQCNS
at least the Astros have a nice head start on the tiebreaker vs. the Angels (5-2)
Apparently, you can't double switch the DH position
McInnis said:
What is the rationale for sub-part 5 which states that if the DH is moved to a field position then the pitchers must bat for the rest of the game? I think that's always been the rule for professional baseball and college, but I've never understood why it is. Figured this might be a good time to ask.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your question, but a lineup must have 9 batters. If the DH enters the game to play defense for another fielder, someone has to take the lineup spot of that departed fielder because the DH remains where he is (can't occupy two spots in the order). Once on the field, the DH is dropped and you just have 9 fielders batting- including the pitcher.
I was always taught as an umpire (travel, HS, cup of coffee in the college ranks) to think of the bench as the DH's field position.
Did that come close to your question?
I love Texas Aggie sports, but I love Texas A&M more.
Did that change with the universal DH?redline248 said:
Apparently, you can't double switch the DH position
You can sub for the DH, but you can't drop it by playing the DH in the field or having the pitcher bat, then add it back. Same as the no re-entry rule. You can go from DH to fielder but not fielder to DH because that would require moving positions in the lineup. Maybe that better answers the question.
I love Texas Aggie sports, but I love Texas A&M more.
Marvin said:McInnis said:
What is the rationale for sub-part 5 which states that if the DH is moved to a field position then the pitchers must bat for the rest of the game? I think that's always been the rule for professional baseball and college, but I've never understood why it is. Figured this might be a good time to ask.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your question, but a lineup must have 9 batters. If the DH enters the game to play defense for another fielder, someone has to take the lineup spot of that departed fielder because the DH remains where he is (can't occupy two spots in the order). Once on the field, the DH is dropped and you just have 9 fielders batting- including the pitcher.
I was always taught as an umpire (travel, HS, cup of coffee in the college ranks) to think of the bench as the DH's field position.
Did that come close to your question?
I guess, but why couldn't the DH be moved to replace a fielder and then a player from the bench be moved to DH? The original DH would have to keep his order in the lineup and the new DH would hit in the position of the departed fielder.
The rule must be in place to prevent some kind of gaming that I'm not thinking of.
Here is my odd list.
Lance Berkman. He should be held in a similar regard as we do Biggio & Bagwell, but he's not. He should be in the HOF, but he was barely considered. Big Puma is highly rated, but still underrated.
Chris Carter. I know he struck out a lot. But he drew walks and hit the piss out of the ball. Over his 3 years in Houston, he averaged a 114 wRC+ and his worst year was still above the league average (105).
Roy Oswalt. He's like the pitching version of Berkman. He had 4 6+ fWAR as an Astro. Over 9.5 seasons he had 2000 innings of 3.24 ERA, 3.35 FIP, 1.196 WHIP, & 133 ERA+. He's not elite like say Pedro, JV, Kershaw, Maddux, but he's not too far from Glavine, Halladay, King Felix, Greinke, and Hammels. The 2nd tier greats.
Colin McHugh. From '14-'16, he gave us 30 starts a year and averaged 6 IP per with a 3.71 ERA & 3.57 FIP. Exactly what you want from a 4 in the rotation. He got injured in '17, but was good before that. Then moved to the pen and got extra filthy. 2.21 ERA, 2.94 WHIP, & opponents had a .255 wOBA against.
Lance Berkman. He should be held in a similar regard as we do Biggio & Bagwell, but he's not. He should be in the HOF, but he was barely considered. Big Puma is highly rated, but still underrated.
Chris Carter. I know he struck out a lot. But he drew walks and hit the piss out of the ball. Over his 3 years in Houston, he averaged a 114 wRC+ and his worst year was still above the league average (105).
Roy Oswalt. He's like the pitching version of Berkman. He had 4 6+ fWAR as an Astro. Over 9.5 seasons he had 2000 innings of 3.24 ERA, 3.35 FIP, 1.196 WHIP, & 133 ERA+. He's not elite like say Pedro, JV, Kershaw, Maddux, but he's not too far from Glavine, Halladay, King Felix, Greinke, and Hammels. The 2nd tier greats.
Colin McHugh. From '14-'16, he gave us 30 starts a year and averaged 6 IP per with a 3.71 ERA & 3.57 FIP. Exactly what you want from a 4 in the rotation. He got injured in '17, but was good before that. Then moved to the pen and got extra filthy. 2.21 ERA, 2.94 WHIP, & opponents had a .255 wOBA against.
It is funny how every generation seems to have one position that gets treated like the catcher position does now - the position where you are willing to run out a guy who can't hit to get the great glove. It is hard to remember when there were so few strong bat SS. In that era, you had A-Rod, Nomar, Jeter, Rollins, and not much else, and now there are so many quality SS it is hard to believe.
But Everett at his peak in 2003-2006 was Jake Meyers with platinum glove defense. That 4.1 dWAR he put up in 2006 is still beyond ridiculous. Compare that to the Gold Glove seasons of Peña (2.6 dWAR) and Correa (2.9 dWAR). Compare Everett's failure to make an All-Star Game to the 2008 "All-Star" performance of Miguel Tejada.
Setting aside longevity (which is obviously critical for legacy and Hall of Fame), if you really want to go down an interesting rabbit hole, go compare the offense and defensive resumes for Everett and Ozzie Smith, a legend.
Would I choose Everett over either of Correa or Peña? No, but I would choose him over anyone else who played the position in club history (not counting pre-injury Dickie Thon or the one good 2009 season of Tejada).
But Everett at his peak in 2003-2006 was Jake Meyers with platinum glove defense. That 4.1 dWAR he put up in 2006 is still beyond ridiculous. Compare that to the Gold Glove seasons of Peña (2.6 dWAR) and Correa (2.9 dWAR). Compare Everett's failure to make an All-Star Game to the 2008 "All-Star" performance of Miguel Tejada.
Setting aside longevity (which is obviously critical for legacy and Hall of Fame), if you really want to go down an interesting rabbit hole, go compare the offense and defensive resumes for Everett and Ozzie Smith, a legend.
Would I choose Everett over either of Correa or Peña? No, but I would choose him over anyone else who played the position in club history (not counting pre-injury Dickie Thon or the one good 2009 season of Tejada).
Agree on Carter and McHugh those are good ones. But Berkman and Oswalt have their numbers in the rafters and are Astro legends.
Not really what I would consider underappreciated.
Not really what I would consider underappreciated.
That is an interesting topic.
I almost agree with you on your last point, but I would probably take Marwin (assuming he can cheat a little) over him. Not an elite defender, but good enough and hit above average.
I almost agree with you on your last point, but I would probably take Marwin (assuming he can cheat a little) over him. Not an elite defender, but good enough and hit above average.
They do?Ag_07 said:
Agree on Carter and McHugh those are good ones. But Berkman and Oswalt have their numbers in the rafters and are Astro legends.
Not really what I would consider underappreciated.
Berkman and Oswalt compared to Biggio and Bagwell are for me the classic HOF debate of whether longevity in counting stats is more important than elite peak performance for a decade plus and being a generational great at your position.
Both Berkman and Oswalt were ELITE, but chose not to play into their forties.
And RE: Collin McHugh, our failure to bring him back post 2019 in still one my biggest recent regrets. He represented a quality bullpen arm that could give multiple innings, swing start, wanted to be in Houston, and was inexpensive.
Both Berkman and Oswalt were ELITE, but chose not to play into their forties.
And RE: Collin McHugh, our failure to bring him back post 2019 in still one my biggest recent regrets. He represented a quality bullpen arm that could give multiple innings, swing start, wanted to be in Houston, and was inexpensive.
Two underrated guys
Joe Niekro. Overshadowed by brother Phil and of course tainted by having a nail file in his pocket.
144-116, 3.22 ERA, 82 CH, 21 SO
Big ol JR. His stretch from '76 until the blood clot and stroke in mid 1980 were just amazing. He invented his own disease JRRitis. Randy Johnson was the left handed JRR. Someone so big and scary and just wild enough that no one wanted to step in against him. Ij 1980 with the clot he allowed an OPS of .462. He made everyone 20% worse than machete.
Joe Niekro. Overshadowed by brother Phil and of course tainted by having a nail file in his pocket.
144-116, 3.22 ERA, 82 CH, 21 SO
Big ol JR. His stretch from '76 until the blood clot and stroke in mid 1980 were just amazing. He invented his own disease JRRitis. Randy Johnson was the left handed JRR. Someone so big and scary and just wild enough that no one wanted to step in against him. Ij 1980 with the clot he allowed an OPS of .462. He made everyone 20% worse than machete.
I put Marwin in the asterisk club with Tejada and Thon. Unlike most of the 2017 Astros, Marwin was the clear beneficiary of the trash can system and his numbers outside of that season would not justify putting him ahead of Everett as a pure SS.
McInnis said:Marvin said:McInnis said:
What is the rationale for sub-part 5 which states that if the DH is moved to a field position then the pitchers must bat for the rest of the game? I think that's always been the rule for professional baseball and college, but I've never understood why it is. Figured this might be a good time to ask.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your question, but a lineup must have 9 batters. If the DH enters the game to play defense for another fielder, someone has to take the lineup spot of that departed fielder because the DH remains where he is (can't occupy two spots in the order). Once on the field, the DH is dropped and you just have 9 fielders batting- including the pitcher.
I was always taught as an umpire (travel, HS, cup of coffee in the college ranks) to think of the bench as the DH's field position.
Did that come close to your question?
I guess, but why couldn't the DH be moved to replace a fielder and then a player from the bench be moved to DH? The original DH would have to keep his order in the lineup and the new DH would hit in the position of the departed fielder.
The rule must be in place to prevent some kind of gaming that I'm not thinking of.
When the DH enters the game as a fielder, the DH designation is dropped and the DH is now a fielder. You can't bring it back. I haven't really thought of why that is, but I'll consider it when I get back to my bottle of bourbon tonight!
I love Texas Aggie sports, but I love Texas A&M more.
As an Astros fan, Berkman is in the same category as Bidge and Bags. Especially compared to Bidge, he just didn't play as long. He also happened to end his career when the team sucked. Otherwise he wouldn't have been traded like the other two. Knowing what little we got for him, I wish we didn't trade him but he is probably better off having gotten to end on some good clubs.
For me the one knock on Bagwell that Lance has over him is postseason.
Bagwell was terrible in the postseason and Berkman was great.
Bagwell was terrible in the postseason and Berkman was great.
In terms of pitchers, Shane Reynolds is another one who is well known, and yet still underrated.
He was never an ace and was always overshadowed by bigger names on the staff (Kyle, Johnson, Hampton, Lima, etc.), but was a quality workhorse for the mid to late 1990s Astros. I feel like Reynolds was for those teams what Andy Pettitte was for the 2004-2005 Astros behind Oswalt and Clemens.
It was always hard to tell whether his post 2000 falloff was due to leaving the Astrodome, reaching his mid thirties, or both, but he never had extreme home/road splits, so I suspect the latter more than the former, unlike someone like Lima who was destroyed by the stadium move.
He was never an ace and was always overshadowed by bigger names on the staff (Kyle, Johnson, Hampton, Lima, etc.), but was a quality workhorse for the mid to late 1990s Astros. I feel like Reynolds was for those teams what Andy Pettitte was for the 2004-2005 Astros behind Oswalt and Clemens.
It was always hard to tell whether his post 2000 falloff was due to leaving the Astrodome, reaching his mid thirties, or both, but he never had extreme home/road splits, so I suspect the latter more than the former, unlike someone like Lima who was destroyed by the stadium move.
To me, Berkman is easily the closest comp to Yordan in club history as a hitter as a LH (in Berkman's case switch hitter) elite bat with mammoth power and great plate coverage and bat to ball skills.
Yeah and atleast he got to stick it to Arlington.
Are the bats migrating back into town?
For reasons I can't explain, I haven't followed this season as closely as years past and don't really have a clue how we're matching up with anybody.
For reasons I can't explain, I haven't followed this season as closely as years past and don't really have a clue how we're matching up with anybody.
The Astros worst matchup is winning lineups vs Dusty BakerMicrowave Onions said:
Are the bats migrating back into town?
For reasons I can't explain, I haven't followed this season as closely as years past and don't really have a clue how we're matching up with anybody.
I'll add some names to the Mt. Rushmore of underappreciated Astros... and I'm basing that term on unretired numbers.
Dave Smith- 11 years with the Astros producing 216 saves and a 130 ERA+
Joe Sambito- 8 years with the Astros producing a 140 ERA+ and throwing 40 consecutive scoreless innings in '79
Cesar Cedeno- 12 years with the Astros producing 5 gold gloves, 1600 hits, 480 steals, and a 129 OPS+
Billy Doran- favorite Astro during my college years. He was a beautiful baseball player. Don't judge.
Also, regarding a retired number player, keep in mind that Jeff Bagwell played 9 years in the Astrodome, where he hit 269 of his 449 career home runs. He might have hit 550 in his career if he played all home games at MMP.
Dave Smith- 11 years with the Astros producing 216 saves and a 130 ERA+
Joe Sambito- 8 years with the Astros producing a 140 ERA+ and throwing 40 consecutive scoreless innings in '79
Cesar Cedeno- 12 years with the Astros producing 5 gold gloves, 1600 hits, 480 steals, and a 129 OPS+
Billy Doran- favorite Astro during my college years. He was a beautiful baseball player. Don't judge.
Also, regarding a retired number player, keep in mind that Jeff Bagwell played 9 years in the Astrodome, where he hit 269 of his 449 career home runs. He might have hit 550 in his career if he played all home games at MMP.
I love Texas Aggie sports, but I love Texas A&M more.
It is as if Major League's Rachel Phelps left the owner's booth and decided to take things in her own hands by managing the team.
So true. He could hit, run, field. When Durocher was managing the Astros he compared Cedeno to Willie Mays which probably wasn't fair but he really gave off special vibes during his early years. Seems like he was never the same after that trouble in the Dominican.Quote:
Cesar Cedeno- 12 years with the Astros producing 5 gold gloves, 1600 hits, 480 steals, and a 129 OPS+
Testing for the future:
https://instagr.am/p/CswB3nvOEFn
Yep it works. Back in the game for tomorrow night!
https://instagr.am/p/CswB3nvOEFn
Yep it works. Back in the game for tomorrow night!
While we're debating the merits of the DH, I'd like to see what would've happened if they had tied the DH to the starting pitcher; i.e. when the starter leaves you either sub the active DH to the field or lose them as well. That would've preserved NL style managerial decisions around double switches and when to pull pitchers while not leaving an automatic out in the lineup.
Bregxit said:
I banged Billy Doran's nanny shortly after high school.
I feel offended for some reason…
I love Texas Aggie sports, but I love Texas A&M more.
RyanC said:
While we're debating the merits of the DH, I'd like to see what would've happened if they had tied the DH to the starting pitcher; i.e. when the starter leaves you either sub the active DH to the field or lose them as well. That would've preserved NL style managerial decisions around double switches and when to pull pitchers while not leaving an automatic out in the lineup.
Can you imagine Dusty trying to make that mental calculation?
I love Texas Aggie sports, but I love Texas A&M more.
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