If we sign Choo, I will lose faith that this front office knows what it takes to build a winning team. Signing Choo would show that they are giving into the pressure instead of staying the course (which I believe is actually going to work).

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He allowed four homers and 21 earned runs in 19 innings for the Rockies, bringing his ERA on the season to 10.04

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He fits right in!!

Acquired Jesus Guzman for Ryan Jackson

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If we sign Choo, I will lose faith that this front office knows what it takes to build a winning team

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So one signing would erase all the farm system build up they've done?

Maybe they want to field an actual major league team this year. Not a team of AA rejects.

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If we sign Choo, I will lose faith that this front office knows what it takes to build a winning team

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So one signing would erase all the farm system build up they've done?

Maybe they want to field an actual major league team this year. Not a team of AA rejects.

Trade is just swapping spares, but Guzman started off pretty well in the league, maybe he can return to form.

And maybe I was being too harsh, Frok, because the farm system work has truly been great. Everyone makes mistakes. I guess I should have just said that I feel it would be a huge mistake to give up a 2nd and way overpay a 31-yo Choo when we really aren't going to be competitive in his prime. You give him a 7 year deal and you are going to be stuck with a terrible contract when you are actually trying to be competitive and need the dollars. At least that is my opinion. On the flip side, if you are able to get him for cheaper than that, I feel like he is a player you could flip at the deadline in a year or two. I really think that was the thinking with the Feldman signing. If he returns to his original form, he cold be moved for some decent pieces at the deadline within the next two years...

Lastros gonna be lastro's . Nothing to see here

that's a heavy flow of butthurt and fear^^^

Yep, that seems like the tactic of someone who doesn't watch a lot of baseball or is scared. The Astros are second in the organizational depth rankings for this year according to Baseball America. Thankfully for Rangers fans, the Rangers are fourth in those rankings while also having talent at the major league level.

I still don't want to sign Choo, even though it is probably something that will help a wager I currently have that the Astros will not finish in dead last this year. Rather continue to focus on long-term plans this off-season, hope a few of the young guys break through, and start filling in some missing pieces next year, when the FA market is slightly more competitive.

The Astros have lost the city of Houston at the moment. I think they know that they cannot finish dead last with no notable names on their roster again this year. Choo would be a signing to add someone who at least is a major league known player. Sure that contract is ridiculous, but so has every other contract I've seen signed in baseball this year.

The Astros need to rebuild like the Rockets. Be competitive and entertaining while rebuilding. They were not competitive or entertaining last year.

I'm a true astros fan, the fans the Astros lose will come sprinting back at the first sign of winning. Signing a guy like Choo will do nothing for this franchise. His contract requirements just scream Carlos Lee type of contract

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The Astros have lost the city of Houston at the moment. I think they know that they cannot finish dead last with no notable names on their roster again this year. Choo would be a signing to add someone who at least is a major league known player. Sure that contract is ridiculous, but so has every other contract I've seen signed in baseball this year.

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Why not? When you're already at the bottom and lost any mind-share from casual fans, you aren't going to lose anymore. It would be different if you were just continually treading water as a middle/lower middle of the pack team and casual fans are slowly drifting away. But the Astros are already going to be starting completely over in the rebuilding of the fanbase (which will be easy as soon as they are winning). If that rebuilding starts this year or next year (or the year after) what does it matter?

I agree with Bond.

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I'm a true astros fan, the fans the Astros lose will come sprinting back at the first sign of winning. Signing a guy like Choo will do nothing for this franchise. His contract requirements just scream Carlos Lee type of contract

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If that rebuilding starts this year or next year (or the year after) what does it matter?

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I think it does. Especially when you have a TV deal still being negotiated. Fan interest in the Astros is at an all time low. They absolutely need to take a step forward this year. Choo may not help that step but apparently Luhnow thinks he will. The same guy you all have been praising for the farm system rebuild. If he ends up being Carlos Lee part two then you get a couple good years out of him at least. Now losing the second round pick sucks, I do agree with that.

Been reading some articles and hearing opinions on both sides of the possible Choo deal.

Honestly, I'm coming around to it.

Fangraphs did a breakdown on $/WAR. If he has a year close to last year (but with better defense since he wont be in center) he could put up the same type of WAR number as last year. As he regresses with age, the deal would suck near the end, but nowhere near Carlos Lee levels, as Choo would still be putting up 1.5-2 WAR.

Remember, this is not some fat power hitter. This is a guy who gets on base at a high clip and has a great eye at the plate. That type of skilll is one of least regressive skills with age. He can still be useful to us at the end of the contract.

I dont think he should get the kind of money the Yankees offered.. but I dont think he turned them down for money. He wants him and his family comfortable and maybe New York isnt that place.

I could see us doing 7/$126 or 6/$100. And I am perfectly fine with that. His skills are ones we dont have and need badly.

One last thing.. think of it this way..

This is the kind of money we are supposed to spend next year right?

Well is a guy with Choo's skill set going to be on the market next year? Is Choo himself? Sometimes if you know you need a certain type of player, you grab him when you can instead of waiting and hoping.

[This message has been edited by mazag08 (edited 12/19/2013 11:09a).]

He turned down seven years 140 million dollars from the New York Yankees I highly doubt he's going to take less to come here and don't give me that state income tax b******* I don't want a 31-year-old outfielder when we are trying to rebuild we're not in contention

6 for 100, sure, absolutely you take him.

But he turned down 7 for 140 from the yanks, he ain't coming here for either of those numbers. The free agent class for next year appears to be just as competitive with several 30-year olds out there with significant WAR numbers.

the real strength, and something I would like the Astros to try to address next off season is pitching. This is the list of pitchers who will be available.

Player, WAR, AGE
Max Scherzer, 13.6, 30
James Shields, 12.9, 33
Jon Lester, 10.9, 31
Jake Peavy, 9.9, 34
Justin Masterson, 9.5, 30
Brandon McCarthy, 8.1, 31
Homer Bailey, 7.5, 29
Ryan Dempster, 6.9, 38
Josh Beckett, 6.3, 35
Josh Johnson, 5.7, 31

Sounds like we're done making moves until January/February. Also, doesn't sound like we're in on Choo

http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2013/12/19/jeff-luhnow-were-a-significantly-improved-team/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

WAR is the most useless stat ESPN has ever tried to cram down our throats. It's even worse than QBR.

I wouldn't say its useless. It was created to give us a way to compare current players to historical players and show a general value upon which you can say "player A will net us an extra win over player B in these situations.."

The fangraphs/stat nerds/baseball hipsters use it way too much and treat it like gospel.

The things those guys will NEVER be able to quantify and get through their surprisingly narrow minded brains is ambition, injury risk, intelligence, happiness, coaching effects, owner/GM effects, and basic human nature.

If you let those guys determine who which prospects to keep on a club, players like Chris Davis, Michael Bourn, Jeff Keppinger, Chris Johnson, etc etc would have been given up on. Baseball is the one sport where measurables and stats can only predict part of players possible outcome. The rest is not statistical.

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WAR is the most useless stat ESPN has ever tried to cram down our throats. It's even worse than QBR.

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YORE RIGHT LETS JUST SIGN PITCHERS WITH THE MOST WINS AND BATTERS WITH THE MOST RBI THOSE ARE THE ONLY STATS THAT MEAN A PLAYER IS PRODUCING.

Sounds to me like you have no idea what WAR is... And no it should not be the end all be all when evaluating a player, but it's a hell of a lot more complete way to evaluate players than traditional stats.

And also I am not just a stat guru... Scouting is still also extremely important in my mind.

mazag and irish pete are correct. By no means is it the end all, be all of evaluating players, but stats are a tool to be used, just like scouting. The reasons stats are so useful in baseball is because of the overwhelmingly large sample size. To ignore modern statistics and sabermetrics is folly. ESPN didn't invent WAR, and it sounds like you have no idea about how it is calculated, Duck Patrol. Of course, there are the people who take things too far and ignore everything else, as mazag said. The reason the Red Sox have been so good has been their mix of money, sabermetrics, and traditional scouting. Use all the tools at your disposal.

But people must also keep in mind that the further down in competition level you go, the less useful these stats are due to any number of extenuating circumstances. That is where the traditional scouting comes into things much more than picking current major leaguers. Scouting is good there too, but there's a reason most of the scouts are pounding the pavement and watching tape all year.

WAR was just an easy approximation that shows briefly how good some of the pitchers are that are slated to be free agents without having to type out wins, losses, ERA, WHIP, etc.

Choo signed with the Rangers. Bullet dodged.

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Choo signed with the Rangers. Bullet dodged.

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Suckers

I wouldn't say suckers. Choo's #1 attribute is elite (walk rates), is the most important offensive stat, and ages well compared to power or speed. That said, I think this is win-win for the Astros and Rangers. For the Rangers, it continues their window for another 2-3 years as serious contenders. For the Astros, it increases the likelihood that the 2016 Rangers start looking like the 2013 Yankees, which is when we might realistically be contenders again.

Ya this definitely makes them better for at least the next three years.

Yeah. This will make the Rangers better for the short term, but I'm betting this past season is his career high water mark.

They'll have him for his age 32-38 seasons.

Choo makes a lot more sense in Arlington than he does in Houston. The rangers will excel with him in the short term as he will usually be on base when fielder comes to bat. That offense just got a lot more consistent

I think that was a good pick up for the Rangers.

Stros signed Jesse Crain. Good pickup for a bad bullpen.

Excellent pickup

Apparently Crain hasn't even started his post-surgery throwing program and said being ready for opening day is a best case scenario

The best part about the reinforced bullpen is that they will all be potential trading chips come the summer.

What are the chances the Astros go after Tanaka?