Seven Costanza said:

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Quote:

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The NBA has never had a trade where a 1st Team ALL-NBA player got traded for another 1st Team ALL-NBA player.

Referring to Anthony Davis as "peanuts" is ignorant.

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Anthony Davis was a 1st Team All-NBA player 5 years ago. He's about to turn 32 and has played around half the games for the past 5 years. He's still a very good player, but he's five years past his prime and will not age well.

If they had traded for LeBron, would you be saying "why are y'all complaing? They just traded for arguably the best player of all time!"

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My bad.
Anthony Davis was 2nd team All-NBA last Season.

AD is the best two way big in the NBA and he represents a skillset that has never been seen in Dallas.

It seems like you are calling Anthony Davis washed up...and I would respond that the Dallas Mavericks have never had a player that could get you 25 points, 13 rebounds and play elite defense......that is what he's averaged the last 3 seasons.

The Mavs have spent the last 25 years building their teams around guys that don't play very good defense.
The Spurs, Bulls, Pistons, Rockets, and Warriors were all awesome defensive teams...and they all either went back to back, or won more than 3 titles.

If Luka was playing 80 games a season I wouldn't have traded him either.....but this years Mavs team has underachieved because their 25 year old superstar has missed half the season.

This years Mavs team is awesome. Very few Mavs team could have this sort of record without Dirk or Luka.
The Mavs brass felt that if you take this supporting cast and surround them with a DPOY candidate that they could beat any team in the NBA.

Dirk is my favorite player ever....but if you told me back in 2007 or 2008 that I could get the last 4 years of prime Hakeem......I might pull that trigger.
I probably still wouldn't trade Dirk because I know I'm getting 80 games/year out of him.

Also, we were a top 5 or so defense last year. So your opinion about not playing defense doesn't hold water. And we improved this year by getting naji And having pj and gafford the whole year (if we weren't snake bit by injuries).

mavsfan4ever said:

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Also, we were a top 5 or so defense last year. So your opinion about not playing defense doesn't hold water. And we improved this year by getting naji And having pj and gafford the whole year (if we weren't snake bit by injuries).

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Mavs were 18th last year in defense over the entire season by DRTG. They were 20th by opponent ppg, but that is impacted by the Mavs playing 6th fastest pace.

What were we after getting pj and gafford? Its kinda pointless what we were without them when we dominated with them late in year and in the playoffs. And when we have them this year.

ETA: Nm I didn't know how to use the filter button

I don't know where I could get that calculated. But I think everyone would agree the Mavs were growing all season and moving Grant Williams and Seth Curry for PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford was a huge positive for the team defensively. Plus Lively getting better throughout the season.

Mavs were 6th in the playoffs in defense. They were 4th for teams that played at least 2 rounds. Orlando was 1st overall, but they lost to Cleveland in 7 in the first round. OKC, Boston, and Cleveland all had better defenses by DRTG than Dallas in the playoffs last year.

Yea I'm not sure how you calculate it either. It just seemed like they were top 5 or so late in the year and in playoffs. Easily top ten. We weren't winning all those games by out scoring people. We were very good at defense and had Luka/Kyrie to create. It was a great combo.

Best I could do is Post-All Star Break, Dallas was 7th.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING&Season=2023-24&SeasonSegment=Post+All-Star

Thanks.

mavsfan4ever said:

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Talk about a bad take. Trading 10-15 years of Luka for 2-4 years of AD just bc Luka missed 25 games or so this year when AD is literally injured every year except last year. And you just went to the finals last year and improved your roster in the offseason.

Now that's a bad take.

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Who gives a chit about 10-15 years????

We are talking about right now.
This current team has a window of 3 years and this year was set to be wasted because Luka came into this season out of shape.
Nico Harrison has done things for Luka that Donnie Nelson was never able to do for Dirk.

Dirk never got to play with a sidekick as talented as Kyrie Irving.
Dirk never had a supporting cast as talented as the 24-25 Mavericks.

The Mavs front office goes out and gets all these players and our superstar player can't show up to training camp in shape?

That "injury" that Luka had in November when the Mavs sat him for two weeks? That was the Mavs telling him to get his ass in shape.

You think Kobe, Dirk, Lebron or Michael Jordan are showing up to training camp after losing the Finals out of shape?

mavsfan4ever said:

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Also, we were a top 5 or so defense last year. So your opinion about not playing defense doesn't hold water. And we improved this year by getting naji And having pj and gafford the whole year (if we weren't snake bit by injuries).

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https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024.html

The Mavericks finished 17th last year in Defensive Net Rating. I understand they improved a lot after the addition of Gafford and PJ Washington.....but just how bad were they before the trade if all they improved to was 17th in the NBA?

The Mavericks have finished the season as the #1 rated offense in the NBA during these seasons:
2001-02 57-25
2002-03 60-22
2003-04 52-30
2005-06 60-22 Lost in the NBA Finals

The highest finishes for the Mavs in defensive net rating have been the following:
2006-07 5th 67-15 record
2010-11 8th Won NBA Championship
2021-22 6th Made Western Conference Finals


For comparison sakes, here is where the Golden St Warriors ranked in Defensive Net Rating during their dynasty years:
14-15: 1 NBA Champions
15-16: 2 NBA Runner up. 73-9 record
16-17: 2 NBA Champions
17-18: 11 NBA Champions
21-22: 1 NBA Champions

Nico Harrison was not lying when he said that defense wins championships. As in plural.
When AD, Gafford and Washington get healthy this will be the best defensive team the Mavericks have ever had.

mavsfan4ever said:

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Talk about a bad take. Trading 10-15 years of Luka for 2-4 years of AD just bc Luka missed 25 games or so this year when AD is literally injured every year except last year. And you just went to the finals last year and improved your roster in the offseason.

Now that's a bad take.

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Maybe its a bad take, but I have a question for you?

Dirk's prime lasted from lets say from the 2000-01 to 2011-12.
He led the Mavs to 50 wins for 11 straight seasons.
The Showtime Lakers, Duncan Spurs and the Dirk Mavs are the only teams in NBA history to win 50 games for an entire decade.

During that 11 year stretch the Mavs only lost 30 or more games three times.
2003-04: 52-30
2007-08: 50-32
2008-09: 51-31

The Mavs best regular season record under Luka was 52-30 in 21-22 and last year when the Mavs went 50-32.

Why do you think that is?
The Mavs knocked off the #1 seed in both 22 and 24...so that makes me think they underachieved in the regular season.

If I want to win championships I'm not sure If want to invest another 10-15 years in a player that doesn't play any defense, and only plays about 80% of the games in the regular season.

If Luka was playing 75-80 games each season the Mavs would be regularly winning 55 plus games a year.
Most superstar players play 90% of their regular season games. Luka has never given the Mavs 90%.

Its very concerning that a 25 year old player is already missing significant time due to injuries. Dirk was in year 15 and past his prime before he ever missed significant time due to injury.

Nagler said:

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Nico, that you?

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Was just wondering why Nico had time to post on TexAgs.

I agree that Luka should be better conditioned and that may help out some with injuries. Before the trade I complained alot about his attitude and complaining and not hustling.

But everything you just said about his injuries applies even more to the guy they traded him for (the guy who is now likely out for the season). Luka has never been injured to where he was out the whole year or missed the playoffs. And he's only 25 and can start taking his body better. You mentioned dirk. He self admittedly didn't start taking his body seriously until he was 28-30.

mavsfan4ever said:

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I agree that Luka should be better conditioned and that may help out some with injuries. Before the trade I complained alot about his attitude and complaining and not hustling.

But everything you just said about his injuries applies even more to the guy they traded him for (the guy who is now likely out for the season). Luka has never been injured to where he was out the whole year or missed the playoffs. And he's only 25 and can start taking his body better. You mentioned dirk. He self admittedly didn't start taking his body seriously until he was 28-30.

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https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

The difference between Dirk and Luka is the following:
Dirks first full season was his 2nd year of 1999-2000.

From Dirks 2nd year he gave the Mavericks 13 straight seasons of playing 90% of the games.
For 15 out of 16 years (1999 to 2016) Dirk gave the Mavericks 75 games each season.

Dirk's conditioning later in his career was the catalyst for his defensive improvement.....but he was always available to play.

Its very concerning to me that Luka has never played in more than 75 games in a regular season.
Dirk always had a lean face. Luka's face is permanently chubby with the occasional double chin protruding out of his neck like this year.

I agree with most of that. But what we are talking about in no way justifies the trade that was made.

Not a fan of the trade… I lived a big part of my adult life at 6'6" (same as Luka) and 250-265 (likely the same as Luka)…and your body, especially your legs, take a huge beating being that big. If he doesn't take his conditioning seriously and soon, he could really screw things up.

/not a fan of the trade

Nagler said:

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Nico, that you?

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I'm not, but I understand exactly what he's doing.

People in Dallas don't know jack about defense....and frankly I can't blame them. That's why you have Mavs fans on this thread calling Anthony Davis "peanuts"...and acting like a guy that averaged 25-13 and 2.5 blocks/ game for the past 3 years isn't that good.

The Dallas Mavericks franchise has never had an elite big man that could dominate on offense and defense like Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Moses Malone, Hakeem, Dwight Howard...etc

Dirk's legacy would be completely different if he had someone like Ben Wallace or Tyson Chandler protecting his backside his entire career like Larry Bird had with Mchale and Parrish.

Tyson Chandler, Daniel Gafford and James Donaldson are the best defensive big men the Mavs have ever had.
Outside of Shawn Bradley (who was one dimensional) the Mavericks have never had a big man that consistently averaged over 2 blocks/game like Anthony Davis.

The Mavericks replaced their weakest defensive player with a player that is capable of winning Defensive Player of the year.

People in Dallas have never seen what a true defensive anchor looks like. The closest was Tyson Chandler during the 2011 Championship year....but he was one dimensional on offense. Only really good for dunks and putbacks.
and of course the Mavs got rid of Chandler the very next year after the title.

mavsfan4ever said:

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I agree with most of that. But what we are talking about in no way justifies the trade that was made.

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I've been following the Mavs since the 1980's. Nico Harrison and Patrick Dumont are distancing themselves from the Mark Cuban era. The new owner is not going to be a friend to the players like Cuban, or a father figure like Jerry Jones.

Its a huge risk, but I understand what they are doing.

South Platte said:

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The NBA hasn't been a defensive-oriented league in decades.

Those 2000 decade teams with Dirk were loaded with talent. Just because there wasn't a Kyrie didn't mean Dirk didn't have a huge supporting cast. Stackhouse, Prime Josh Howard, and Jason Terry, then Jason Kidd. Those are really good players on very deep rosters.

I don't know why I'm joining this argument. It's not going to change anything. This franchise is royally F'ed for the next decade.

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The NBA hasn't been a defensive oriented league in decades yet the most dominant franchise of the past 10 years (Golden St Warriors) regularly finished in the top 3 in the NBA in defensive net rating.

When the Golden St Warriors were going on those 36-12 sort of runs it was their defense that was catalyst.

The 2000 Mavericks were not loaded with elite talent. They were loaded with a bunch of good players surrounding a supreme talent in Dirk Nowitski.
Josh Howard was the only other all star that Dirk played with after 2004.

None of those players you listed were anywhere as good as Kyrie Irving. Kyrie has been in Dallas for 2 years and he is already 4th in Franchise history (Luka, Mark Agguire, Dirk, Kyrie) in 40 point games.

mavsfan4ever said:

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We have gone to the finals and the wcf without this dominant big man you are talking about (who we now likely won't have at all this year bc he's always injured). And besides jokic, dominant big men aren't really winning titles these days. We already had lively and gafford, so our big men were already above average for what we needed. On the other hand, I can't think of any teams who have won titles with only one playmaker (which is what we have now). Kyrie is the only playmaker and can somewhat get shut down in the playoffs.

I guess we will see if you are right. But I don't expect us to get back to win the finals in the next 2-3 years. And if we don't, given our past record with Luka and the trajectory of the team when healthy, the trade is a colossal failure and it shortened out window from 10-15 years to 2-3 years.

Can we agree that if we don't win the finals in the next 3 years it's a failure?

And we aren't even getting into the chance that Kyrie leaves in the offseason. If that happens, our window is .5 years (and AD is hurt in that window). And we will be in franchise hell after AD and Kyrie get old or leave.

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The goal is not to get to the WCF or the Finals...the goal is to win the whole thing.
I'm not sure if you watched the Finals last year....but the Mavs got smoked by the Celtics.
Most of the games were not close at all.

Mavs also got smoked by GSW during the 2022 WCF also losing in 5 games.

Last years Boston team was #3 in Defensive Net Rating
The 2022 Golden St Warriors were #1 in Defensive Net Rating.

Too many people in Dallas think Luka is the only person in the world that can play basketball at an elite level because most Mavs fans have no clue what a great defensive team looks like.

The Spurs have built their franchise over the past 35 years around defense.
The Mavs have built their franchise over the past 27 years (Dirk, Nash, Luka) around amazing offensive talent.

Who's been to more NBA Finals?
Who was won more titles?

Its time to turn the page on guys that can't (or won't) commit to playing defense at a high level.

and its also time for you to quit saying 10-15 years. Luka has already played 7 years. He will not get to 22 years in the NBA.
Its more like 8-10 years.....and if Luka doesn't get serious about his conditioning it might be less than that.

South Platte said:

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The NBA hasn't been a defensive-oriented league in decades.

Those 2000 decade teams with Dirk were loaded with talent. Just because there wasn't a Kyrie didn't mean Dirk didn't have a huge supporting cast. Stackhouse, Prime Josh Howard, and Jason Terry, then Jason Kidd. Those are really good players on very deep rosters.

I don't know why I'm joining this argument. It's not going to change anything. This franchise is royally F'ed for the next decade.

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Absolutely not true that the league hasn't been defensive oriented.

24 Celtics: 3rd in Defense
23 Nuggets: 15th
22 Warriors: 1st
21 Bucks: 2nd
20 Lakers: 3rd
19 Raptors: 5th (and made mid-season move to get former DPOY Marc Gasol)
18: Warriors: 11th
17 Warriors: 2nd
16 Cavs: 10th
15 Warriors: 1st
14 Spurs: 3rd
13 Heat: 9th
12 Heat: 4th
11 Mavs: 8th
10 Lakers: 4th
09 Lakers: 5th
08 Celtics: 1st
07 Spurs: 2nd
06 Heat: 9th
05 Spurs: 1st
04 Pistons: 2nd
03 Spurs: 3rd
02 Lakers: 7th
01 Lakers: 21st
00 Lakers: 1st
99 Spurs: 1st

There are 3 teams in the last 25 years that had a defense outside the top 10. 18/25 have top 5 defenses.

This year 3 teams have a win percentage above 70. They are the 6th, 5th, and 1st defenses.

These teams don't play defense the way teams in the 80's and 90's did. That's all I was trying to say. The NBA is an offensive-oriented sport. Championship teams aren't playing lock down defense. They're just getting more stops than the other teams.

South Platte said:

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These teams don't play defense the way teams in the 80's and 90's did. That's all I was trying to say. The NBA is an offensive-oriented sport. Championship teams aren't playing lock down defense. They're just getting more stops than the other teams.

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The entire game is different than then. It isn't as physical and offenses are smarter across the board.

But the teams that win at a high rate are all the best defenses in the league.

If you look at those teams over the last 25 years, the three teams that weren't top 10 - one was the Warriors that were 2nd year before and 1 was the Lakers that were 1st the year before and 7th the year after. The other is Joker's team that had KCP and Gordon to get stops.

Gotta have defense, gotta have rim pressure, gotta have 3pt shooting.

Kellso said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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We have gone to the finals and the wcf without this dominant big man you are talking about (who we now likely won't have at all this year bc he's always injured). And besides jokic, dominant big men aren't really winning titles these days. We already had lively and gafford, so our big men were already above average for what we needed. On the other hand, I can't think of any teams who have won titles with only one playmaker (which is what we have now). Kyrie is the only playmaker and can somewhat get shut down in the playoffs.

I guess we will see if you are right. But I don't expect us to get back to win the finals in the next 2-3 years. And if we don't, given our past record with Luka and the trajectory of the team when healthy, the trade is a colossal failure and it shortened out window from 10-15 years to 2-3 years.

Can we agree that if we don't win the finals in the next 3 years it's a failure?

And we aren't even getting into the chance that Kyrie leaves in the offseason. If that happens, our window is .5 years (and AD is hurt in that window). And we will be in franchise hell after AD and Kyrie get old or leave.

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The goal is not to get to the WCF or the Finals...the goal is to win the whole thing.
I'm not sure if you watched the Finals last year....but the Mavs got smoked by the Celtics.
Most of the games were not close at all.

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Your takes are laughable. I just need to quit responding I guess.

Yes, we got killed by the Celtics, who literally had one of the top OFFENSES of all time in the nba.

Our problem was not defense. It was that we had absolutely no one other than Luka who could create their shot and score or create looks for others. Now we don't even have Luka. We won't even get to the finals now, but if we did it would be even uglier without Luka. Kyrie could do absolutely nothing against Boston's defense (and that was with Luka getting a ton of attention).

And our defense against a team like Boston will likely be even worse now if AD is playing the 4. He needs to play the 5, but that makes him redundant with lively and gafford. If AD is playing the 4, then the teams like Boston and okc will spread the mavs out and take advantage of the fact that they have two 5s on the court. Plus, that means PJ will play the 3, when he should be playing the 4.

AD is one of the best rim protectors in the league. That is negated when he is guarding guys that will remain at the 3 point line. I'm honestly not even sure that our defense got better for this reason. And we will likely never know bc AD won't stay healthy for us to find out.

mavsfan4ever said:

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Kellso said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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We have gone to the finals and the wcf without this dominant big man you are talking about (who we now likely won't have at all this year bc he's always injured). And besides jokic, dominant big men aren't really winning titles these days. We already had lively and gafford, so our big men were already above average for what we needed. On the other hand, I can't think of any teams who have won titles with only one playmaker (which is what we have now). Kyrie is the only playmaker and can somewhat get shut down in the playoffs.

I guess we will see if you are right. But I don't expect us to get back to win the finals in the next 2-3 years. And if we don't, given our past record with Luka and the trajectory of the team when healthy, the trade is a colossal failure and it shortened out window from 10-15 years to 2-3 years.

Can we agree that if we don't win the finals in the next 3 years it's a failure?

And we aren't even getting into the chance that Kyrie leaves in the offseason. If that happens, our window is .5 years (and AD is hurt in that window). And we will be in franchise hell after AD and Kyrie get old or leave.

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The goal is not to get to the WCF or the Finals...the goal is to win the whole thing.
I'm not sure if you watched the Finals last year....but the Mavs got smoked by the Celtics.
Most of the games were not close at all.

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Your takes are laughable. I just need to quit responding I guess.

Yes, we got killed by the Celtics, who literally had one of the top OFFENSES of all time in the nba.

Our problem was not defense. It was that we had absolutely no one other than Luka who could create their shot and score or create looks for others. Now we don't even have Luka. We won't even get to the finals now, but if we did it would be even uglier without Luka. Kyrie could do absolutely nothing against Boston's defense (and that was with Luka getting a ton of attention).

And our defense against a team like Boston will likely be even worse now if AD is playing the 4. He needs to play the 5, but that makes him redundant with lively and gafford. If AD is playing the 4, then the teams like Boston and okc will spread the mavs out and take advantage of the fact that they have two 5s on the court. Plus, that means PJ will play the 3, when he should be playing the 4.

AD is one of the best rim protectors in the league. That is negated when he is guarding guys that will remain at the 3 point line. I'm honestly not even sure that our defense got better for this reason. And we will likely never know bc AD won't stay healthy for us to find out.

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You should quit responding. You are a classic Luka Fan, and not really a fan of the Mavericks.

You have been brainwashed by the local media and national media into believing that Luka could do no wrong, and that all the success of the Mavs was solely do to the guy that plays no defense and dominates the ball in his hand more than any other player in the NBA.

Its obvious you don't want the Mavericks to succeed. Only someone that knows little about basketball would refer to Anthony Davis as "peanuts".

The Mavs wouldn't have traded Luka if they were winning 55-60 games a year. This years team should have one of the top 2-3 records in the NBA, and they don't because Luka's fat ass couldn't start this season in shape.

I'm not sure how long you've been a Mavs fans but the same thing happened 20 years ago.
The Mavs let a future 2x MVP walk in free agency, and got roasted in the media for letting Nash go to Phoenix.
Nash took his game to another level and elevated Phoenix into one of the really good teams in the NBA. Steve Nash won the MVP in both 2006 and 2007.

The other side of the coin is that (to this day) the Mavericks three year stretch once they let Nash walk (58-24, 60-22, 67-15) is still the best 3 year regular season stretch in franchise history.
The Mavs improved after Nash left because they improved their athleticism and defense. Nash was a fantastic offensive player, but he was also a blackhole on defense.

Luka is still going to be great in Los Angeles, but the Mavericks are much better suited to beat Boston or Cleveland than they were a year ago.