****Western Conference Finals - Spurs vs. Thunder****

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Ulrich
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11:34a, 5/28/14
quote:
Funny, I don't recall hearing about how poorly the refs were in games 1 or 2. Weird how this is just now coming up

Fouls and free throws were pretty even in games one and two even though the Spurs thumped the Thunder. Why would anyone complain? Officiating changes from game to game even in the playoffs.
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GatorAg03
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11:35a, 5/28/14
In game 1 there was plenty of complaining. Despite the spurs having over double the points in the paint than the Thunder, the Thunder still shot 30% more free throws. The only game I don't have a major problem with was game 2.

This series has been the worst officiated series in years.
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Token
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11:36a, 5/28/14
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This series has been the worst officiated series in years.

lol no
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GatorAg03
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11:44a, 5/28/14
I have been watching basketball for decades and this is the worst I have seen since the Mavs vs Heat.

If you really think Ibaka was worth a 40 point swing without the refs assistance then I can't help you.

Which series would you say was worse and why?
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mAgnoliAg
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11:44a, 5/28/14
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This series has been the worst officiated series in years.

Wow. If y'all truly think this, then y'all have been getting all the calls for years, and you shouldn't be *****ing now. The clippers got hosed last series against OKC way more than y'all are (aren't). Rockets got hosed way more against Portland, etc.
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GatorAg03
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11:46a, 5/28/14
I watched both those series and completely disagree. There may have been an isolated worse call or two down the stretch, but not a widespread change in the way the game is called or allowed to play like there has been this series.
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Sher Thing
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11:46a, 5/28/14
I don't think it's the worst officiated series in years. I actually think the 2012 series was worse (bigger sample size though).

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Guitarsoup
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11:47a, 5/28/14
Rockets got hosed way more against Portland, etc.
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Houston Summit
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11:48a, 5/28/14
These are worse than the games that Tim Donaghy fixed? Ok
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Ulrich
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11:50a, 5/28/14
I didn't watch Portland/Houston, but looking at the series stats Houston shot 10 more free throws and was called for 7 fewer fouls. In the closeout game, the foul calls were even and Houston shot 9 more free throws. OKC/LAC had several historically bad calls for sure, but I don't remember hearing about anything like that from the HOU/POR series.
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Guitarsoup
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11:53a, 5/28/14
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These are worse than the games that Tim Donaghy fixed? Ok


The FBI searched his entire career and couldn't find any evidence that he fixed a game. Donaghey did accuse other refs of rising games, though.
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Pahdz
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11:53a, 5/28/14
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So we can't complain because CP3 was able to molest durant? You just proved our point. Your best player wasn't getting calls because of a bigger star player and it was frustrating to you.

The same thing is happening to the Spurs but on a larger scale.

The difference is unlike Durant, Ibaka and Westbrook, the trio of Manu, Parker and Duncan have actually won a few titles and should get the benefit of the doubt. Westbrook is the most overrated player in the league without the officials help.


CP3 a bigger star than Durant? Hardly.

That was more a point of how unfairly big guys are officiated in the league, not specifically Durant. It's what JVG cried about (legitimately) with Yao in the past.

Manu gets calls, some of them by exaggeration (hey everyone does, I thought this was even a joke within the Spurs fanbase). I don't watch enough Spurs basketball but the way you guys make it sound is all year long you guys are consistently jobbed.

And if you think Westbrook is only good because of the officials, I have nothing else for you.
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Guitarsoup
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11:54a, 5/28/14
And for what it is worth, Cuban hired a retired FBI agent to look into the 2006 NBA Finals and the FBI agent said that if Cuban sued the NBA, he would probably win. But at what cost?
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GatorAg03
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11:56a, 5/28/14
In 4 games our starting point guard who lives in the paint has shot five free throws. The last two games he hasn't even shot one free throw. For a finals MVP that lives in the paint, that is absurd.

Manu, who is our other slasher. Has shot 7 free throws in four games. He has two games where he didn't even shoot one free throw.

Tim, who is a top 10 player of all time, has shot 13 free throws in four games. His high in a game was four.

These three all star players combined in four games have shot 25 free throws. Last night alone Durant and Westbrook shot 23 free throws.

The Spurs are getting zero calls and it isn't just because of Ibaka. It was happening before that as well. This series is the worst officiated one I have seen in a long time.

[This message has been edited by GatorAg03 (edited 5/28/2014 10:59a).]
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Guitarsoup
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11:57a, 5/28/14
I will also say the 2012 WCF was officiated worse than this series so far.
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Sher Thing
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11:58a, 5/28/14
quote:
And for what it is worth, Cuban hired a retired FBI agent to look into the 2006 NBA Finals and the FBI agent said that if Cuban sued the NBA, he would probably win. But at what cost?


He said this was not true fwiw
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mAgnoliAg
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12:00p, 5/28/14
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I didn't watch Portland/Houston, but looking at the series stats Houston shot 10 more free throws and was called for 7 fewer fouls. In the closeout game, the foul calls were even and Houston shot 9 more free throws. OKC/LAC had several historically bad calls for sure, but I don't remember hearing about anything like that from the HOU/POR series.

And Houston shot 6 more per game during the season. There was a couple games that were just really bad. Our series was not historically bad, but I did think how the refs refereed Dwight was really bad. Harden didn't get his normal calls until we were down big in the series. I just thought them being able to hammer Dwight and us not being able to hammer LMA was big in the series.
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GatorAg03
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12:02p, 5/28/14
The 2012 series was bad, but again it always seems worse when the games are close.

This series is so bad because the way the refs are calling it is leading to it not even be close. It's easy to dismiss it as bad play as opposed to refs causing it, yet the way they are calling the game has led to much of that bad play.
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Pahdz
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12:03p, 5/28/14
Gator...not taking anything away from Parker or Manu, but one thing that Durant & Westbrook have over pretty much anyone else playing in this series is insane speed to the basket. When you're trying to defend that kind of quickness when you don't have it yourself, the odds of fouling are higher.

Soup is right, 2012 was way worse, I can admit that and we won that series. Watching Harden on the other side now I can see how livid you guys were.
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Ulrich
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12:03p, 5/28/14
Duncan is the only Spur with a consistent claim to mistreatment by the officials. People have been wrapping him up and praying for a no call for 15 years, and a lot of times it works.

The Spurs don't get a ton of fouls called for them, but that is because most of those shots in the paint are open looks from good passing rather than iso head-down charges into the lane. They don't get called for a ton of fouls, but that is because they play good position defense, maintain verticality, and don't reach. The problem rises when they play good position defense, maintain verticality, and get called for a foul as they get run over, or when someone like Westbrook can hack and shove until he knocks the ball out. The Spurs don't have big strong guards because the rules of the game favor speed more than size on the perimeter. It's when the officiating switches over to reward head down crashes to the basket that the Spurs have problems and Westbrook thrives.
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Pahdz
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12:04p, 5/28/14
quote:
Harden didn't get his normal calls


Oh so they officiated correctly then, and didn't fall for the arms flailing in the air trick?
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mAgnoliAg
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12:06p, 5/28/14
quote:
quote:
Harden didn't get his normal calls


Oh so they officiated correctly then, and didn't fall for the arms flailing in the air trick?

He always gets hit when this happens. He just makes the refs job calling it easier.
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Ulrich
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12:10p, 5/28/14
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And Houston shot 6 more per game during the season. There was a couple games that were just really bad. Our series was not historically bad, but I did think how the refs refereed Dwight was really bad. Harden didn't get his normal calls until we were down big in the series. I just thought them being able to hammer Dwight and us not being able to hammer LMA was big in the series.

Big guys do get mauled, but Howard leads everything with his elbows and shoulder, which I think makes it even harder for the refs to call anything in his favor.

The Rockets shot more free throws (+1, +3, +8, +9) in all but two games, when Portland was +5 and +6. The foul calls were within one in all but two games, when Houston was called for 4 and 3 fewer fouls than Portland. There is no high level stat that shows Portland with an officiating advantage, nothing like OKC's +24 free throw advantage in the first 45 minutes of game three.
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Ulrich
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12:12p, 5/28/14
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He always gets hit when this happens.

He usually initiates the contact, and sometimes he was never touched. Everyone sells calls now and then and some of Harden's fall into that category, but Harden is one of the two worst floppers in the game.
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Guitarsoup
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12:15p, 5/28/14
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Gator...not taking anything away from Parker or Manu, but one thing that Durant & Westbrook have over pretty much anyone else playing in this series is insane speed to the basket. When you're trying to defend that kind of quickness when you don't have it yourself, the odds of fouling are higher.


How do you think Parker gets to the hoop? Parker has always been one of the quickest players with one of the best first steps in the NBA. His entire game is predicated on being able to get past his defender and get into the lane at will.
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Pahdz
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12:16p, 5/28/14
I wish they'd just take the game back to the 80's where they'd let most everything go, and you had to go Lambeer or Rick Mahorn on someone to get called.
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Pahdz
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12:20p, 5/28/14
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How do you think Parker gets to the hoop? Parker has always been one of the quickest players with one of the best first steps in the NBA. His entire game is predicated on being able to get past his defender and get into the lane at will.


True. You usually are quick to have a boatload of stats to back up everything, is he not going to the lane that much this series? Has it changed since Ibaka came back? I think Ulrich does have a point in that when Manu/Parker are in the lane it's a result of great scheme and ball movement, and with Westbrook/KD it's more of a "our offense sucks so I've got to just attack the rim," so naturally there are probably going to be more guys around them.
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Guitarsoup
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12:20p, 5/28/14
quote:
quote:
quote:
Harden didn't get his normal calls


Oh so they officiated correctly then, and didn't fall for the arms flailing in the air trick?

He always gets hit when this happens. He just makes the refs job calling it easier.


GTFO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EOYSzVLQyc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdICKLlISuE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwhhbV1um1U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBLxh2uXpEE

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Frok
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12:22p, 5/28/14
Gee look, everyone is incredibly biased towards their own team. Shocker.

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DTP02
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12:25p, 5/28/14
Westbrook, on offense especially, makes it tough to officiate. He is a blur and he's always on the edge of out of control. IMO a lot (but certainly not anywhere close to all) of things he does could rightly be called offensive fouls or no calls, and the degree to which those are called "fairly" varies significantly by the official and the home court.
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mAgnoliAg
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12:25p, 5/28/14
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Gee look, everyone is incredibly biased towards their own team. Shocker.

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Guitarsoup
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12:26p, 5/28/14
quote:
You usually are quick to have a boatload of stats to back up everything, is he not going to the lane that much this series? Has it changed since Ibaka came back?


He is still getting into the lane at will. He just isn't getting bailed out at all like Durant/Westbrook and that is a huge difference in the series.

In game 4, Parker shot all but 3 shots from within 10 feet and shot 0 FTs. Pretty much the same thing in game three. All but 4 shots from the lane. 0 FTA.

Parker has 5FTA for the entire series.
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Houston Summit
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12:27p, 5/28/14
First one was really bad. Second was bad, but not as bad as the first. The one with Ariza wasn't a flop though. Trevor was grabbing him and pulling him the entire time through that screen.

And the last one doesnt count because that was when he was in OKC
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Ulrich
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12:28p, 5/28/14
quote:
True. You usually are quick to have a boatload of stats to back up everything, is he not going to the lane that much this series? Has it changed since Ibaka came back? I think Ulrich does have a point in that when Manu/Parker are in the lane it's a result of great scheme and ball movement, and with Westbrook/KD it's more of a "our offense sucks so I've got to just attack the rim," so naturally there are probably going to be more guys around them.

Parker has a tough time getting into the lane when Ibaka is there. It didn't help that every time he started to make a move he got loose with his dribble and Westbrook slapped it out from behind.

It's a bit unfortunate, but the officiating in today's NBA rewards (or at least compensates) teams for not having an offense. Short of your suggestion to go back to the no blood, no foul days, I'm not sure what to do about it.
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Guitarsoup
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12:29p, 5/28/14
quote:
Trevor was grabbing him and pulling him the entire time through that screen.


Grabbing him made him fly three feet away from Ariza? Harden had his right arm locked around Ariza.
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