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All of these tv contracts are guaranteed money, the university, bowls, and ncaa are not going to lose a dime based on who plays and who doesn't so they have no incentive to insure players for one game

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There is more than just the immediate payout. A bowl win can mean a program finishes top 5 instead of top 10, top 10 instead of top 20, top 25 instead of unranked. It can also create momentum for recruiting HS Juniors.

Hypothetically, if Will Grier were willing to play the bowl for a $10k draft insurance policy, WV would be stupid not to pay the money. WV went from a 7 pt favorite to 2 points without Grier.

Again, hypothetically, if Trayveon said he would not play in the Gator Bowl unless insurance, we would be idiots not to buy him a 1-game policy.

We spent $50k on a season's worth of insurance for Cedric Ogbhuei 3 years ago. The 10k is a very rough guess.


EDIT to make very clear that I was speaking in hypotheticals. I have no inside information.

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And if you can reach that goal in a shorter amount of time, even better. It sucks for the fans but most everyone would encourage their kids to do the same if the opportunity presented itself.

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Exactly. See Nick Bosa. He could have come back in time for the end of the season, especially for the bowl game, but he wasn't going to improve his marketability any more by doing so. He's still the projected #1 pick. Why would he risk injury for an exhibition? Skipping it won't impact his draft stock. Blowing out his knee would. And to do so simply because fans, who have no real skin in the game, want to see him play makes it even more absurd.

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

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All of these tv contracts are guaranteed money, the university, bowls, and ncaa are not going to lose a dime based on who plays and who doesn't so they have no incentive to insure players for one game

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There is more than just the immediate payout. A bowl win can mean a program finishes top 5 instead of top 10, top 10 instead of top 20, top 25 instead of unranked. It can also create momentum for recruiting HS Juniors.

If I am WV and Will Grier would to play the bowl for a $10k draft insurance policy, they would be stupid not to pay the money. WV went from a 7 pt favorite to 2 points without Grier. Same with us and Trayveon.

We spent $50k on a season's worth of insurance for Cedric Ogbhuei 3 years ago. The 10k is a very rough guess.

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I'm not advocating that university's shouldn't be allowed to pay for an athlete's insurance policy, if they think it is worth the money then by all means go right ahead.

And maybe I missed it, but Trayveon is sitting out the Gator Bowl? I don't have a problem if he is, I just didn't hear that announcement I guess.

Not for any reason. Only reasons enumerated in the contract. If "for any reason" is part of the contract the players are already in a hugely lopsided deal and probably should read/negotiate before signing.

The purpose of an athletic scholarship is to reward athletic talent with an education. Originally to help talented individuals who desired to further their education, but would not otherwise have the means to attend college (we'll forget that part in this day & age).

Now, when talented individuals who have no desire to get an education (on their own dime or scholarship) earn athletic scholarships it harms society by robbing the opportunity at an education for someone who wants to be useful to the world. Once that person sheds their scholarship and displays no desire to be educated it ought to be repaid to be available for another potentially deserving individual.

If you want more details:
Things like injury or loss of talent would not require repayment, assuming the individual completes their education. The terms of remaining on scholarship would be up to the individual to settle with the university before signing.

If the goal is to just be a farm league, why require a faux education. Tying up resources that would otherwise be available to students that would care to use them.

I'm not saying all student athletes aren't students. I'm saying there needs to be a push to get "student" athletes that are not students out of the way.

What's more important? The next Heisman winner, who can't spell or conjugate, from Highland Park or the cure for cancer from a middle child in Dime Box?

A $450 million dollar stadium upgrade and a $75 million dollar coach and you still think this is about educating a handful of down and out kids? What color is the sky in your world?

Basically this comes down to your opinion of why people should go to college. Some go for the joy of learning, some go to make themselves more valuable in the workplace, some go to escape home, and some attend college to drink their face off. And finally some go to earn the chance to play in the NFL. You might not like it but quit trying to force your perception of legitimate reasons to attend college on others.

Not my opinion. It's the purpose of universities.

I wasn't aware that I had mentioned the purpose of a university. Oh wait, I didn't.

I mentioned that reason people chose to attend college. Which varies greatly. As someone mentioned earlier quit shifting the goalposts when you talk yourself into a corner.

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And maybe I missed it, but Trayveon is sitting out the Gator Bowl? I don't have a problem if he is, I just didn't hear that announcement I guess.

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I should have chosen my words better. I meant hypothetically. IF TW were to demand insurance to play, we would be stupid not to pay $10k for his services in the Gator Bowl.

Staff- I will edit my original post. Did not intend to start a rumor.

TexasRebel said:

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Not for any reason. Only reasons enumerated in the contract. If "for any reason" is part of the contract the players are already in a hugely lopsided deal and probably should read/negotiate before signing.

The purpose of an athletic scholarship is to reward athletic talent with an education. Originally to help talented individuals who desired to further their education, but would not otherwise have the means to attend college (we'll forget that part in this day & age).

Now, when talented individuals who have no desire to get an education (on their own dime or scholarship) earn athletic scholarships it harms society by robbing the opportunity at an education for someone who wants to be useful to the world. Once that person sheds their scholarship and displays no desire to be educated it ought to be repaid to be available for another potentially deserving individual.

If you want more details:
Things like injury or loss of talent would not require repayment, assuming the individual completes their education. The terms of remaining on scholarship would be up to the individual to settle with the university before signing.

If the goal is to just be a farm league, why require a faux education. Tying up resources that would otherwise be available to students that would care to use them.

I'm not saying all student athletes aren't students. I'm saying there needs to be a push to get "student" athletes that are not students out of the way.

What's more important? The next Heisman winner, who can't spell or conjugate, from Highland Park or the cure for cancer from a middle child in Dime Box?

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If this is your view, then take it up with the NFL. They are the ones forcing kids to go to college. If they allowed kids straight out of high school to declare for the draft, or had a minor league program, your suggestion may hold water. But right now, they are literally forced to go to college if they want any shot at making their dreams come true.

If my son was going to be a high draft pick and playing in a meaningless bowl game (i.e. anything other than the playoffs), I would fully support his business decision to skip the bowl game and prepare for the draft.

Millions of dollars and a NFL career... or a meaningless bowl game. Seems like an easy pick.

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

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And maybe I missed it, but Trayveon is sitting out the Gator Bowl? I don't have a problem if he is, I just didn't hear that announcement I guess.

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I should have chosen my words better. I meant hypothetically. IF TW were to demand insurance to play, we would be stupid not to pay $10k for his services in the Gator Bowl.

Staff- I will edit my original post. Did not intend to start a rumor.

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Ok I see what you mean.

Well the question is not would the university be stupid not to pay the insurance policy, but will they do it? Are there any examples of a university paying for a one game insurance policy? I just don't think these non playoff bowl games are looked at the same way by the fans as it is by the university...otherwise sure give all seniors and draft eligible underclassmen an insurance policy for the bowl (it's not like we can't afford it right?)

No, you stated that academics being the reason to attended college was merely my opinion and disagreed with it. To which I pointed out that you're disagreeing with fact. Also, again, an inappropriately used "moving the goalposts" claim.

TexasRebel said:

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No, you stated that academics being the reason to attended college was merely my opinion and disagreed with it. To which I pointed out that you're disagreeing with fact. Also, again, an inappropriately used "moving the goalposts" claim.

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If it weren't for football there are plenty of players who wouldn't have been accepted to their current university, much less decided to attend one purely for academic purposes...so how can you say it is a fact that academics is the only reason to attend a university?

They accepted an athletic scholarship to allow them to attend a university they wouldn't otherwise have had the means to attend.

They are going to the university to get an education and paying for it with talent.

That is an appropriate use of an athletic scholarship.

TexasRebel said:

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They accepted an athletic scholarship to allow them to attend a university they wouldn't otherwise have had the means to attend.

They are going to the university to get an education and paying for it with talent.

That is an appropriate use of an athletic scholarship.

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Agreed, and if they decide to leave school early for personal or professional reasons then that scholarship is then taken away and given to someone else attending the school...but what grounds does a university have to say they must payback the amount of the scholarship that they have rightfully already earned with their talent?

It's like my earlier post about how an NFL player can choose to hold out on a contract and not get paid for the games they are missing, but the team can't make them then payback game checks that they had previously earned on that same contract.

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Are there any examples of a university paying for a one game insurance policy? I just don't think these non playoff bowl games are looked at the same way by the fans as it is by the university.

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It is just a matter of time.

Bowl games are not "meaningless."

Winning bowl games is good for business. They effect final AP ranking, which effects off-season hype, which impacts recruiting the junior class.

The only question is the extent. Spending $10k to ensure the team's star plays in the bowl game seems like a no-brainer. Don't ask me the cut-off point is, I just know it is somewhere north of $10k for major programs.

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

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Are there any examples of a university paying for a one game insurance policy? I just don't think these non playoff bowl games are looked at the same way by the fans as it is by the university.

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It is just a matter of time.

Bowl games are not "meaningless."

Winning bowl games is good for business. They effect final AP ranking, which effects off-season hype, which impacts recruiting the junior class.

The only question is the extent. Spending $10k to ensure the team's star plays in the bowl game seems like a no-brainer. Don't ask me the cut-off point is, I just know it is somewhere north of $10k for major programs.

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Like I said, if they decide that you are correct and start doing that for individual games and players then I wouldn't be against it...I just don't see them doing that

Losing to Wake Forest last year sure didn't seem to hurt our momentum...

True, but not a common situation. Jimbo had more credibility coming in than anybody since Urban landed at Ohio State.

Will Grier at WV is the perfect example.

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

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True, but not a common situation. Jimbo had more credibility coming in than anybody since Urban landed at Ohio State.

Will Grier at WV is the perfect example.

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Will Grier gets to start focusing on the combine a month early, his backup and potential starter next year gets a month of first team reps and a live scrimmage in the bowl game, and West Virginia has already shown what it can show to recruits during the regular season...if you think a backup quarterback losing to Syracuse in the Camping World Bowl means they are going to lose recruits then I don't know what to tell you.

Dana Holgorsen is in full support of Grier moving onto his professional career and getting drafted as high as possible, which is also good for recruiting both to have high draft picks from your school and to show players that you care about their professional goals and not trying to use them for a glorified scrimmage game.

To those of you that think it's fine for a guy to not play in a "meaningless" bowl game (defined by many here as not being in the playoff), what about once their team is no longer possibly in consideration for the playoff? I'm talking about healthy players (not the Nick Bosa situation). Should they go ahead and stop playing the now "meaningless" remainder of the regular season too?

NY Ag said:

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To those of you that think it's fine for a guy to not play in a "meaningless" bowl game (defined by many here as not being in the playoff), what about once their team is no longer possibly in consideration for the playoff? I'm talking about healthy players (not the Nick Bosa situation). Should they go ahead and stop playing the now "meaningless" remainder of the regular season too?

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Well I think the NFL looks at skipping a bowl game to start preparing for the NFL combine a month early a lot differently than if you quit on your team half way through your last season which could negatively hurt your draft stock...but then again I'm sure there are players who have done that before

There's a reason you don't see coaches coming out and speaking out against their players skipping the bowl game for the NFL...Dana Hologorsen is a great example of that with his senior QB skipping the Camping World Bowl this year and he is in full support of him.

I'm a big believer in doing what you think is best for you, and not bashing on 20-22 year old college kids who have an opportunity to make life changing money.

NY Ag said:

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To those of you that think it's fine for a guy to not play in a "meaningless" bowl game (defined by many here as not being in the playoff), what about once their team is no longer possibly in consideration for the playoff? I'm talking about healthy players (not the Nick Bosa situation). Should they go ahead and stop playing the now "meaningless" remainder of the regular season too?

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I see it the same as if an NFL player is dealing with nagging injuries or injuries that require a surgery but he could still play. If the team is fighting for the playoffs, I think he should play if it isn't damaging his future, but if the team is 2-9, then I would have no problem with the player sitting, especially if it means extra time to rehab from surgery and prepare for the next season. I would think the GMs and coaches of NFL franchises don't want to seea player not finishing out a season to protect themself because they will probably be the ones holding out every season after the year they sign their contract.


And yes, the bowl games the difference between being a bowl champion and bowl runner up is pretty meaningless for an athlete that is playing at the next level.

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There's a reason you don't see coaches coming out and speaking out against their players skipping the bowl game for the NFL...

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What real choice does Dana have? If Dana criticizes Grier for abandoning the team, Dana sounds like a whinny female dog. The media would excoriate the "hypocrisy" of a coach who makes millions off player's backs criticizing them trying to get theirs. Other coaches would use it to negative recruit Dana's recruits "we support our athletes in their pro careers" or some such talking point.

Sometimes you have to smile on the outside. If given a choice, Dana would choose to have Grier start.

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Should they go ahead and stop playing the now "meaningless" remainder of the regular season too?

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This is a good bigger question: Where does it stop?

I suspect that the NFL does not release draft recommendations until the end of the regular season for this exact reason. I cannot prove that.

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

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There's a reason you don't see coaches coming out and speaking out against their players skipping the bowl game for the NFL...

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What real choice does Dana have? If Dana criticizes Grier for abandoning the team, Dana sounds like a whinny female dog. The media would excoriate the "hypocrisy" of a coach who makes millions off player's backs criticizing them trying to get theirs. Other coaches would use it to negative recruit Dana's recruits "we support our athletes in their pro careers" or some such talking point.

Sometimes you have to smile on the outside. If given a choice, Dana would choose to have Grier start.

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Ok that still makes my point, you basically have just agreed with me that complaining about players skipping bowl games makes you sounds like a "whinny female dog" which was my point all along...what right does anyone have to bash 20-22 year olds making a decision based on life changing money and outcomes?

I think this has been an interesting discussion on several fronts.

The notion that today's football player, for most schools, is a "student athlete" is pretty far off base. Many are not academically inclined. Without significant athletic dept. accommodation they could not gain admittance, pass and remain in school (I don't mean tutors,much bigger intervention). IMO what we have is a minor league program masquerading as college student driven extra curricular activity. The kids are being taken advantage of here - the extent to which is debatable.

Regarding the OP to sit out or not. That's a tough call. I can see it both ways. Without sounding sanctimonious, I do think there are more important things than money - commitment, duty, integrity, supporting your friends, being among them. I know, easy to say when you are not the one confronted..... Not sure I buy your selfish if you expect them to play or it's just a meaningless game arguments.

So it asks the questions, are any of the games important for that matter? And to who and why? Why do we have athletic programs? I think in the beginning it was to enhance the college experience for all students. Not just some as a way to pay for their school, as has been suggested. I think we have come far afield from the initial intent, and to not recognize that and pretend otherwise is just masquerading.

ghowe makes some good points

While I personally do not agree with sitting out the rest of the season, or bowl games, or both...I do understand that college football has become a multi-million dollar business and it's not up to me to tell a young man with a chance to make a crap ton of money in just a few months that he must play in an exhibition game.

Other than the college football playoff games, bowls have become mostly irrelevant and players with a chance to make a lot of money soon have nothing to gain from participating.

ghowe said:

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I think this has been an interesting discussion on several fronts.

The notion that today's football player, for most schools, is a "student athlete" is pretty far off base. Many are not academically inclined. Without significant athletic dept. accommodation they could not gain admittance, pass and remain in school (I don't mean tutors,much bigger intervention). IMO what we have is a minor league program masquerading as college student driven extra curricular activity. The kids are being taken advantage of here - the extent to which is debatable.

Regarding the OP to sit out or not. That's a tough call. I can see it both ways. Without sounding sanctimonious, I do think there are more important things than money - commitment, duty, integrity, supporting your friends, being among them. I know, easy to say when you are not the one confronted..... Not sure I buy your selfish if you expect them to play or it's just a meaningless game arguments.

So it asks the questions, are any of the games important for that matter? And to who and why? Why do we have athletic programs? I think in the beginning it was to enhance the college experience for all students. Not just some as a way to pay for their school, as has been suggested. I think we have come far afield from the initial intent, and to not recognize that and pretend otherwise is just masquerading.

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It's pretty simple...if your son (Will Grier in this example) had a first round grade and opportunity to make millions of dollars right out of college...would you be able to look him in the eye and tell him that the Camping World Bowl against Syracuse is worth risking an injury that could stop him from making his dreams come true? And if so, how would you feel if he had a major injury and never got an opportunity in the NFL?

For me, I am not sure it's a simple question. I hear what you are saying and I think I acknowledge that in my post. For most of us it's all hypothetical and therefore admittedly a much easier decision, right... either way. But I do have children and answer your question this way. Honoring a commitment made to others is import and keeping your word and being someone people count on is a fundamental part of a successful life. I would hope I have given my child the values and tools to make the correct decision for himself, whatever that may be. I'll say it again, there are more important things than money. Is this one of them? Every person must decide that for themselves. I greatly admire the choices Myles makes and would be very proud if that were my son.

And to your point regarding the Camping World Bowl.... is that more or less important than a 7 &
4 game with UAB?

ghowe said:

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For me, I am not sure it's a simple question. I hear what you are saying and I think I acknowledge that in my post. For most of us it's all hypothetical and therefore admittedly a much easier decision, right... either way. But I do have children and answer your question this way. Honoring a commitment made to others is import and keeping your word and being someone people count on is a fundamental part of a successful life. I would hope I have given my child the values and tools to make the correct decision for himself, whatever that may be. I'll say it again, there are more important things than money. Is this one of them? Every person must decide that for themselves. I greatly admire the choices Myles makes and would be very proud if that were my son.

And to your point regarding the Camping World Bowl.... is that more or less important than a 7 &
4 game with UAB?

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We are probably saying the same thing because of course it is up to each individual to decide for themselves what is important to them when it comes to their future. It's not like I am saying they "shouldn't" play in the bowl game, I'm just saying if they decide not to then why bash the kid (I'm not saying you are bashing them but there are plenty of people who are), he is obviously just making a decision that he feels is best for him and his family.

And to your other point, I think it's pretty clear that the regular season and an exhibition game are very different which is why you see so many sit out the bowl and very few sit out regular season games to avoid unnecessary injury. I said it before on this thread...the NFL doesn't care about a kid skipping their bowl game, but if they decide to skip out on the regular season they are going to start questioning his commitment and potentially hurt their draft stock.

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what right does anyone have to bash 20-22 year olds making a decision based on life changing money and outcomes

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The first amendment for starters.

But, coaches do not complain, b/c it will not change anything this year.

And FWIW, I support players skipping for equitable reasons. At the same time though, not following through on a commitment is a little skeevy. I let it go b/c the exploitation of football players by the NCAA is far skeevier.


And the solution going forward is for the NFLCAR to release first-round grades before bowl season, but to release 2nd round draft grades after the bowls.

HoustonAg2106 said:

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ghowe said:

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For me, I am not sure it's a simple question. I hear what you are saying and I think I acknowledge that in my post. For most of us it's all hypothetical and therefore admittedly a much easier decision, right... either way. But I do have children and answer your question this way. Honoring a commitment made to others is import and keeping your word and being someone people count on is a fundamental part of a successful life. I would hope I have given my child the values and tools to make the correct decision for himself, whatever that may be. I'll say it again, there are more important things than money. Is this one of them? Every person must decide that for themselves. I greatly admire the choices Myles makes and would be very proud if that were my son.

And to your point regarding the Camping World Bowl.... is that more or less important than a 7 &
4 game with UAB?

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We are probably saying the same thing because of course it is up to each individual to decide for themselves what is important to them when it comes to their future. It's not like I am saying they "shouldn't" play in the bowl game, I'm just saying if they decide not to then why bash the kid (I'm not saying you are bashing them but there are plenty of people who are), he is obviously just making a decision that he feels is best for him and his family.

And to your other point, I think it's pretty clear that the regular season and an exhibition game are very different which is why you see so many sit out the bowl and very few sit out regular season games to avoid unnecessary injury. I said it before on this thread...the NFL doesn't care about a kid skipping their bowl game, but if they decide to skip out on the regular season they are going to start questioning his commitment and potentially hurt their draft stock.

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How are they different? Depending on how you look at it are they all exhibition games? You make a strong point that these games are played for the purposes of feeding the NFL. Are the players in fact sim-pro or student athletes?

This is a faceted topic with a lot of gray. Which is why I find it interesting.

Has a QB ever skipped the draft before?

ghowe said:

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HoustonAg2106 said:

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ghowe said:

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For me, I am not sure it's a simple question. I hear what you are saying and I think I acknowledge that in my post. For most of us it's all hypothetical and therefore admittedly a much easier decision, right... either way. But I do have children and answer your question this way. Honoring a commitment made to others is import and keeping your word and being someone people count on is a fundamental part of a successful life. I would hope I have given my child the values and tools to make the correct decision for himself, whatever that may be. I'll say it again, there are more important things than money. Is this one of them? Every person must decide that for themselves. I greatly admire the choices Myles makes and would be very proud if that were my son.

And to your point regarding the Camping World Bowl.... is that more or less important than a 7 &
4 game with UAB?

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We are probably saying the same thing because of course it is up to each individual to decide for themselves what is important to them when it comes to their future. It's not like I am saying they "shouldn't" play in the bowl game, I'm just saying if they decide not to then why bash the kid (I'm not saying you are bashing them but there are plenty of people who are), he is obviously just making a decision that he feels is best for him and his family.

And to your other point, I think it's pretty clear that the regular season and an exhibition game are very different which is why you see so many sit out the bowl and very few sit out regular season games to avoid unnecessary injury. I said it before on this thread...the NFL doesn't care about a kid skipping their bowl game, but if they decide to skip out on the regular season they are going to start questioning his commitment and potentially hurt their draft stock.

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How are they different? Depending on how you look at it are they all exhibition games? You make a strong point that these games are played for the purposes of feeding the NFL. Are the players in fact sim-pro or student athletes?

This is a faceted topic with a lot of gray. Which is why I find it interesting.

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My point was that the perception of skipping your bowl game to prepare for the NFL draft is far different than the perception of skipping the regular season. It has become widely acceptable to skip your bowl game without hurting your draft stock, skipping the regular season could hurt your draft stock (unless you are injured like the Bosa example)...both are decisions made to maximize the amount of money you make when you go pro.

I didn't misunderstand your point.