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In reference to Hill, Murray and Allen, glad to see them go. None of them are SEC caliber QB's. Look at what they have accomplished since leaving.

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First off, the irony with your "SEC Caliber QB's" comment is that while at almost every other position the SEC is better, that's not really true at the QB position. There have been a lot of top 10 SEC teams that have won in spite of their QB's rather than because of them.

Second, as far as "what they accomplished since they left"??? Kenny Hill threw for over 3,000 yards at TCU as a junior while Allen and Murray had to sit out last year. I would have rather have had Hill than Knight as a one and done this last year, and who knows what Allen and Murray's careers will look like in the end. They're unknowns at this point, but there sure are a lot of programs who liked them.

Finally, let's say for argument's sake that none of those 3 QB's do have the potential to become elite QB's. If that's the case, than Sumlin is an absolutely terrible evaluator.

ebag02 said:

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Sumlin coached the last 9 games of 2002.

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4 and 5.

I am extremely disappointed in Sumlin. He has mismanaged an opportunity that A&M will be hard pressed to ever get again with Johnny and being the media darling for at least one season. He managed to parlay that into a complete disaster .That said I am not confident that those making coaching hires for our program know how to hire a great coach. It's rolling dice regardless. They got a pretty good coach in Sumlin and with the right qb, he can win some games for us.

Offense went from 16 ppg to 33 ppg after he took over, so he was an improvement. He wasn't the head coach, so 4-5 is meaningless. Actually, bringing up his 2002 stint as OC is meaningless in terms of evaluating him now.

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These are not facts, they are opinions. hope this helps

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the numbers are facts

okay heddy...

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For the 13 years before Sumlin arrived we averaged 6.5 wins per season as members of the Big 12 and had the worst loss in Aggie history. Since his arrival we've averaged almost 9 wins per season.

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13 years is a pretty arbitrary number to start with. Plus every coach during those 13 years was shown the door. Sumlin shouldn't be compared against other coaches who failed for a passing grade.

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He's done a great job converting a crappy Big 12 program into a competitive SEC program.

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Uh, his very best year here was when we were a Big XII program popping our cherry as an SEC program. We're becoming less competitive in the SEC the farther we get away from our Big XII era.

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Its going to take a while for us to be LSU or Alabama....Aggie fans who think we should already be those two programs have mental problems.

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Most elite coaches who win national titles have a much sharper, upward trajectory than the "we just need to give him time" people say.

Saban won a national title at LSU in year 3 (before LSU was LSU) and then his first Alabama title in year 3.

Meyer won his national title at Florida in year 2 and Ohio State national title in year 3.

Bob Stoops won the national title at OU in year and has rarely finished below 10 wins since.

Swinney won the Orange bowl in year 4 and hasn't had a single digit win season since year 3.

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The other reality is had we been assigned to the East - we'd likely have been in at least three if not four SEC Championship games.

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Uh...what years are you talking about?

2012 - I think we had a team that would have gone toe to toe with #3 season's end, but we sputtered early in the season as Johnny got his feet wet on the college level. We would have been behind that really, really good UGA team in 2012.

2013 - We had a chance to bet that Missouri team that went to the SEC Championship game, but we lost and they had a better conference record anyway.

2014 - Lost to the Missouri team that went to the conference championship again that year and had a worse record than them.

2015 & 2016 - The way the wheels fall off both seasons in dramatic fashion, I think it's pretty unlikely we would have had a better record than the top 20 Florida team either of those years.

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Those are truth bombs...and the only argument that counts.

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I have to admit. While there was nothing else worth meaning in your post, at lest every time I came to this ******y statement I got a laugh.

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13 years is a pretty arbitrary number to start with. Plus every coach during those 13 years was shown the door. Sumlin shouldn't be compared against other coaches who failed for a passing grade.

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for 10 years - which I suppose is less arbitrary, the average wins were 6.2 wins per season, incongruous our worse loss ever. And, please name one Texas A&M Football Coach in the history of the program before Sumlin that wasn't "shown the door"

thanks -

First off, name calling is a pretty pathetic move to start with, but if you're going to call someone "Dumbass", at least type something that makes sense. I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "incongruous", and I think you meant "worst" rather than "worse".

Bear Bryant is the only coach that wasn't shown the door. We weren't a program that could keep a coach like him at that point in time.

Jackie Sherrill is the other big "what if" had we not gotten into trouble with the NCAA.

In case you're new to Aggie Football, we haven't won a national title since 1939 and haven't won a conference championship in nearly 20 years. Some of us would like to be the type of program that contends for national titles and is always in the mix for conference titles year in and year out. We've put our money where our mouth is with a 450 million dollar stadium renovation.

Before you say "oh, how could you possibly expect to contend for national titles when we're poor old a&m"...again, the coaches I already listed were able to turn the corner in getting to a point where double digit win seasons were the norm by year 4. Also, Sumlin was dealt a pretty damn good hand between Johnny Football, Mike Evans, and the crazy Oline talent we had compared to most of the other past coaches.

Trust me you've earned the adjective

And I have made important points - ones you've just confirmed. We have a colorful history but not the history of an elite program - our recent history before Sumlin's arrival was just horrible - we are competitive in the most difficult division in the best conference in America - a far cry from the decade of mediocrity in the big 12...

And while you do a great job of explaining the great hand Sumlin was given when he arrived let me add that none of those players you mentioned played defense. We led the universe in offense with those players and the first freshman to win the heisman was an Aggie because of it...but we have suffered at interior linebacker and have been undersized defensively upfront and at CB - it takes time to retool a big 12 defense into an SEC defense. We have an amazing crop of new linebackers companies coming in and given the chance they could be the game changers....Sumlin has done well. We sucked before and literally couldn't keeps leads against bad teams and lost at home to a horrible tu team while we had all those stars you mentioned on the roster...******** defines someone who refuses to see what's obvious

This entire post is just poorly worded rambling bs filled with half truths. Please tell me that your opening statement is an attempt at a joke at least.

Sumlin isn't the offensive guru everyone has been duped into believing he is. 2002 was literally the only season in his life where he had sole play calling duties. I think only about 5% of Aggie fans realize that and probably close to 0% of outsiders do. We've been duped.

List 5 teams with a lower ROI than A&M. Consider facilities investment and coaches pay into that equation.

Any team you list had better not played in or much less won a national championship in the last 20 years and not played for much less won a conference title in the past 10 years.

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we are competitive in the most difficult division in the best conference in America - a far cry from the decade of mediocrity in the big 12...

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Never finishing above 3rd place in our own division out of 7 is competitive?

Quit comparing us to our big 12 days, we didn't have a top of the line stadium, top 5 practice facility, top 10 coaching salary & assistants payroll being paid out. We weren't good back then, but that doesn't mean we have to settle with our expectations now.

rodrigogzz said:

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fredfredunderscorefred said:

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What exactly does sumlin do?

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That made my day!

I would love to know one thing that Sumlin does well. Please don't say recruiting. The evidence does not support that.

The bangers never disappoint. All whining and no solutions. Who you gonna replace him with?

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Quit comparing us to our big 12 days

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what other comparison allows us to evaluate Sumlin?

Sabin?
Ole Miss? (Probation, didn't go to a bowl last season)
Arkansas (they have yet to beat us)
Miss St (No)
Auburn (we've beat them every time we've played them at their place)
LSU? - let's just say they have had a bit of a head start on our program. I believe we will catch them and catch them soon.

But if the standard for SEC coaches is you beat Sabin and LSU consistently or you're fired - then all programs are headed for chaos.

Bone6 said:

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First off, name calling is a pretty pathetic move to start with, but if you're going to call someone "Dumbass", at least type something that makes sense.

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I think, based on punctuation, that he was signing his name.

"Thanks - Dumbass" is a signature.

"thanks, Dumbass" is thanking a dumbass

OK, I'll throw my two cents in.

I was willing to give Sumlin the 2016 season, assuming we could go at least 10-2 before the bowl game. We should have fired him after the LSU game.

I am still mystified as to how we lost to the Mississippi schools. The Miss. St. game was a complete joke. We were completely unprepared to play and got steam-rolled by a team that we should have easily beaten.

Ole Miss went 5-7 and we were one of their wins. They were better than Miss. St., but blowing that lead at home is inexcusable. The Rebs started a frosh QB at Kyle Field and we folded like yesterday's flowers.

We beat Auburn, a team that later proved to be very good, at their place. And then we crap the bed against the MS schools. Unreal. We should have beaten LSU at least two of the last three years, but there again, with it all right there for the taking, we crap the bed.

Sure, we had injuries...just like every other team. Bottom line is 2016 was primed to be the year we could win 10-11 games before the bowl.

I don't know what it is about November, about team chemistry, about losing 5* QBs (Kryler is on Kryler and his dad; Allen is 100% on Sumlin), about bad play-calling in clutch situations, about not capitalizing on one of the best situations in all of CFB, but my conclusion is that Sumlin is NOT the guy.

CajunAggie said:

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OK, I'll throw my two cents in.

I was willing to give Sumlin the 2016 season, assuming we could go at least 10-2 before the bowl game. We should have fired him after the LSU game.

I am still mystified as to how we lost to the Mississippi schools. The Miss. St. game was a complete joke. We were completely unprepared to play and got steam-rolled by a team that we should have easily beaten.

Ole Miss went 5-7 and we were one of their wins. They were better than Miss. St., but blowing that lead at home is inexcusable. The Rebs started a frosh QB at Kyle Field and we folded like yesterday's flowers.

We beat Auburn, a team that later proved to be very good, at their place. And then we crap the bed against the MS schools. Unreal. We should have beaten LSU at least two of the last three years, but there again, with it all right there for the taking, we crap the bed.

Sure, we had injuries...just like every other team. Bottom line is 2016 was primed to be the year we could win 10-11 games before the bowl.

I don't know what it is about November, about team chemistry, about losing 5* QBs (Kryler is on Kryler and his dad; Allen is 100% on Sumlin), about bad play-calling in clutch situations, about not capitalizing on one of the best situations in all of CFB, but my conclusion is that Sumlin is NOT the guy.

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Every other team lost their best player and theiron starting QB?

I'd argue that students and recent former students are the problem not Sumlin. The 12th Man is a joke, Kyle Field is no longer the home field advantage it once was. Hell the student section was was thin during the LSU game. Kyle is just another SEC stadium - the only thing different is the war hymn and from time to time a coordinated yell.

Kyle Field was louder and more disruptive at the 1985 tu game with 75,000 than it has been since going to larger than 100K ...and since new army won't blame themselves, and their entitled asses somehow deserve 10 wins, it must be the coach.

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I would love to know one thing that Sumlin does well. Please don't say recruiting. The evidence does not support that.

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Really? Lets toss you a fact to digest.

One of the football recruiting websites calculated this gem last year. For coaches hired after 2010 here are the top 30 coaches based on average recruiting class ranks for their first 3 recruiting cycles. Of course, some are no longer with their team, like Lane Kiffin. And yes, last year was a bit rough (#18) with the QB debacle, but rebounding to #10 this year was a damn good achievement considering the way our season ended.


[ol]

4.0 (292.4) - Urban Meyer, Ohio State

5.3 (282.2) - Jimbo Fisher, Florida State

5.3 (282.1) - Will Muschamp*, Florida

7.7 (275.2) - Gus Malzahn, Auburn

8.3 (272.2) - Kevin Sumlin, Texas A&M

8.3 (271.2) - Lane Kiffin*, USC

8.3 (270.8) - Butch Jones, Tennessee

10.0 (266.2) - Brady Hoke*, Michigan

10.7 (266.1) - Brian Kelly, Notre Dame

12.0 (256.9) - Al Golden*, Miami

12.3 (261.5) - Jim Mora, UCLA

13.3 (253.7) - Hugh Freeze, Ole Miss

21.7 (229.7) - Mark Helfrich, Oregon

23.7 (232.2) - David Shaw, Stanford

25.7 (214.4) - Mike London, Virginia

26.0 (218.5) - Bret Bielema, Arkansas

27.3 (215.2) - Todd Graham, Arizona State

29.0 (210.6) - Larry Fedora, UNC

31.7 (207.7) - Mark Stoops, Kentucky

35.0 (200.0) - Dana Holgorsen, West Virginia

36.7 (197.9) - Charlie Strong*, Louisville

38.3 (195.7) - Dave Doeren, N.C. State

39.0 (195.0) - Rich Rodriguez, Arizona

39.7 (194.5) - Randy Edsall*, Maryland

39.7 (193.4) - Sonny Dykes, California

40.3 (191.1) - Kliff Kingsbury, Texas Tech

49.0 (180.1) - Kevin Wilson, Indiana

50.0 (178.3) - Mike Leach, Washington State

53.0 (173.8) - Kyle Flood, Rutgers

56.3 (170.8) - Tim Beckman*, Illinois

[/ol]

heddy Lamarr said:

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I'd argue that students and recent former students are the problem not Sumlin. The 12th Man is a joke, Kyle Field is no longer the home field advantage it once was. Hell the student section was was thin during the LSU game. Kyle is just another SEC stadium - the only thing different is the war hymn and from time to time a coordinated yell.

Kyle Field was louder and more disruptive at the 1985 tu game with 75,000 than it has been since going to larger than 100K ...and since new army won't blame themselves, and their entitled asses somehow deserve 10 wins, it must be the coach.

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Were you at the Tennesse game? Do you even go to any home games?

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Bottom line is 2016 was primed to be the year we could win 10-11 games before the bowl.

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Not sure I can agree with this. TK just was not that good of a QB. Great leader and I really like the guy but his skill set was not that great and he played hurt a lot of the time.

However, I think the defense needs to take more of the blame for losing games. If we are putting up 28+ points per game, we should not be losing that many games.

Holy crap, I've heard it all now. Yes, lets definitely not blame Sumlin, or any of the other coaches/players/staff because we don't have a linebacker in place to stop a long run, a quarterback who probably had close to as many incompletions as completions on behind the line swing passes, players committing drive killing penalties in multiple instances, etc. Yes, instead let's blame the students and atmosphere of Kyle field.....

Nick saban called out Bama's attendance and yet they don't seem to have a problem winning. Yes, loud crowds do help a defense and energize a team's motivation at times, but if you'd rather blame the students and atmosphere than our coaches and players who are actually playing the game as the primary factor in losing so many games over these last few years, I don't really know what to say except I can't possibly disagree with you any more than 100%.

Why can't we all just share a common goal of striving to win championships..?

ghollow said:

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Bottom line is 2016 was primed to be the year we could win 10-11 games before the bowl.

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Not sure I can agree with this. TK just was not that good of a QB. Great leader and I really like the guy but his skill set was not that great and he played hurt a lot of the time.

However, I think the defense needs to take more of the blame for losing games. If we are putting up 28+ points per game, we should not be losing that many games.

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That is exactly right. Heck, I bet if Trevor doesn't get hurt early in the Miss St., we win that game DESPITE our defense literally laying down for them. Same thing against Ole Miss. Reason being is that our running game, and therefore time of possession was better with Trevor in the game, which kept the opposing offenses off the field. Against the Mississippi schools when Trevor was hurt, we just kept gift-wrapping them drive after drive after drive after drive by pulling more 3 & outs than Nolan Ryan himself, and then in conjunction with our defense repeatedly failing to get just 1 key stop.

Good chance next year will not be too good.

Not happy with Sumlin after the most recent season, but I've accepted that he will be coaching next season.

For this coming season I will quote the following:

TO VICTORY! LIFE OR DEATH!

I also like Kevin Sumlin......he's been the best intern at Texas A&M for the last 6 years and has great promise.

NyAggie said:

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If we go 7-5 but we don't collapse down the stretch then sumlin should get another year because the lack of a collapse will show that the new S&C coach is working

New DC, new PC, now new S&C coach

Need to give this thing 2 more years and if we are still no better than 8-5 then you blow it up

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First, let me start by saying I'm not calling you out. Your post has been said by quite a few over the past several years, but you said this position the best, easiest-to-understand way.

However, I totally disagree with it. Let's look at some issues.

1. When Sumlin took over, he had a great OC with some serious tools to work with. A great OL, Mike Evans and JFF, two of one of the best, if not THE best at those two positions.

2. He took that talent and won early. That boosted his first few classes

3. He has done absolutely nothing with that. Wins and recruiting have fallen off from that peak

4. Last year, we ranked 8th in the SEC in recruiting. This year, we finished 6th in the SEC in recruiting. Neither class was even top 10.

5. Our in-state competition is sucking major ass. They all suck, and are in **** conferences. Nobody wants to go to any of those places. However, we are so pathetic, most of these kids would rather go out of state than to play at A&M, the only Texas school that plays in the SEC

6. We have a new OC, a new OC and new coaches just about everywhere. What the hell do folks think will change our recruiting? A new S&C coach?

We have a chance to grab recruiting by the balls. Sippy is down, the other Texas schools suck ass. We hire a good coach and he can come in and start kicking ass. We keep Sumlin for two more years, and we will not be giving the next guy much at all. Have a third consecutive class rank outside the top 10 playing in the SEC West would suck, but with Sumlin, it appears that's exactly what we will have.

Who? Someone please answer the ****ing question. Who you gonna get?

Swill94 said:

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If I was the actually AD ( not behaving like an irrational fan that thinks a program can be built over night) I'd give him 2 more years with he's coaching staff. I am curious to see how our new S&C coach effects our teams toughness this year!

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AD's have nothing to do with hiring head football coaches in the SEC (or any major and most minor conferences).

HTH.

cevans_40 said:

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Who? Someone please answer the ****ing question. Who you gonna get?

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This is the WORST

W
O
R
S
T

reason to keep a coach.