Quote:

---

He is what the guys in the castle of the Wildmen and Moors Tapestry from 1400s Germany looked like but in a statue....

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/106003

---

From your link:

Quote:

---

DESCRIPTIONSeries of scenes (left to right), wild men attacking Moors in castle, wild men fighting with lion, dragon, and unicorn, and wild men carrying food to wild woman with two children seated at foot of rocks; stylized trees, plants, rocks;

---

You aren't doing yourself any favors

Thanks for the insight, however that is STILL the Habsburg Crest and the double headed eagle symbol of the Holy Roman Empire....He is still European and not African.

According to Boyd Dawkins - He is from the non-aryan race of people from Europe who took over the continent from the neanderthals and "penetrated into every part of the Continent"....."from the Pillars of Hercules and as far NE as Germany and Denmark"

That means that these people have been in Europe and Germany for THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of years...

pgs 315 and 341
Early Man in Britain and His Place in the Tertiary Period - Boyd Dawkins 1880

I wonder if I'm descended from unicorns?!??

This is the Pappenheim Family Crest from 1300s Germany.
This is what the folks in the the Wildmen and Moors Tapestry in Germany looked like but on noble heraldry 100 yrs prior...These people are German and not African.
They are the non-aryan dominions of people who had been in Germany for a several thousand years...

https://tinypic.host/image/D1ZeC2

https://www.heraldry-wiki.com/wiki/Pappenheim

https://pappenheim.de/en/tourism/living-history/town-history/the-middle-ages.html

This is Phillip the 1st Duke of Hesse in Germany 1535....
https://tinypic.host/image/D1Zd7d

This is what the guys in the Wildmen and Moors Tapestry from 1400s Germany looked like...Except on a coin 100 yrs later...

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/106003

Unless the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, the Dresden Green Vault Museum and every other museum in the world that has displayed this Tapestry are complete morons - this is a GERMAN ARTIFACT from the 1400s....

And all of the Europeans above look more like me than Dirk fkn Nowitzki...Any questions?

Jack Friday said:

---

And all of the Europeans above look more like me than Dirk fkn Nowitzki...Any questions?

---

Sure. Can I check "Moor" on an application box for a job/scholarship or not? Or do I need to go back to unicorn?

I'll just keep on checking hayseed.

Jack Friday said:

---

And all of the Europeans above look more like me than Dirk fkn Nowitzki...Any questions?

---

And almost all Europeans looked more like Dirk fkn Nowitzki than you apparently do.
There is no question that there have been Moors, especially in the Islamic invaded areas,
but Moors were rare in the Western aristocracy.
Now Europe is seeing another Islamic invasion, this one paid for by massive amounts of oil money.

I don't think that you've read Boyd Dawkins quote thoroughly enough...These people WERE the Europeans across the continent who took it over from the neanderthals which means they had been there for at least 40,000 yrs...

According to Boyd Dawkins - He is from the non-aryan race of people from Europe who took over the continent from the neanderthals:

and "penetrated into every part of the Continent"....."from the Pillars of Hercules and as far NE as Germany and Denmark"
Dawkins called the neanderthals "cavemen" in his book...

pgs 315 and 341
Early Man in Britain and His Place in the Tertiary Period - Boyd Dawkins 1880

The Holy Roman Empire, Hapsburgs, Pappenheim, Philip Duke of Hesse, Frederick the Wise et al - WERE the aristocracy in that part of Europe for a 1000 yrs or more. They were Christian Europeans...

Moor of Freising from Pope Benedict's Crest....
https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/elezione/documents/stemma-benedict-xvi.html

The Holy Roman Empire held dominion in Central Europe around the same time as the Muslim Moors did in Spain. They were contemporaries on the continent for several centuries...

Jack Friday said:

---

I don't think that you've read Boyd Dawkins quote thoroughly enough...These people WERE the Europeans across the continent who took it over from the neanderthals which means they had been there for at least 40,000 yrs...

According to Boyd Dawkins - He is from the non-aryan race of people from Europe who took over the continent from the neanderthals:

and "penetrated into every part of the Continent"....."from the Pillars of Hercules and as far NE as Germany and Denmark"
Dawkins called the neanderthals "cavemen" in his book...

pgs 315 and 341
Early Man in Britain and His Place in the Tertiary Period - Boyd Dawkins 1880

The Holy Roman Empire, Hapsburgs, Pappenheim, Philip Duke of Hesse, Frederick the Wise et al - WERE the aristocracy in that part of Europe for a 1000 yrs or more. They were Christian Europeans...

Moor of Freising from Pope Benedict's Crest....
https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/elezione/documents/stemma-benedict-xvi.html

---

Okay, now I understand what you are trying to prove.
Not sure if I care enough to research it, but I appreciate
that you have given an answer to what it is that you are after.

These artifacts are from 1540 in Southern Germany.

This is what you might find inside the castle of the Wildmen and Moors Tapestry or at Schloss Guttenburg.

https://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00001649/images/index.html?seite=25&fip=193.174.98.30

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/106003

Glad to oblige...

I'm sorry, Jack, but I still don't understand what you're trying to say.

No one disputes (or at least very few dispute) that a massive "out-of-Africa" event happened sometime in the distant past. But we know virtually nothing of those peoples.

Are you saying that the aristocracy of Europe were of black African descent and appearance for thousands of years until only relatively recently?

Are you saying that the majority of native Americans were of black African descent and appearance?

Again, I apologize for being slow and not getting your point. Can you make your point clearly in a sentence or two? What would you like to convince us of?

Rongagin71 said:

---

Jack Friday said:

---

I don't think that you've read Boyd Dawkins quote thoroughly enough...These people WERE the Europeans across the continent who took it over from the neanderthals which means they had been there for at least 40,000 yrs...

According to Boyd Dawkins - He is from the non-aryan race of people from Europe who took over the continent from the neanderthals:

and "penetrated into every part of the Continent"....."from the Pillars of Hercules and as far NE as Germany and Denmark"
Dawkins called the neanderthals "cavemen" in his book...

pgs 315 and 341
Early Man in Britain and His Place in the Tertiary Period - Boyd Dawkins 1880

The Holy Roman Empire, Hapsburgs, Pappenheim, Philip Duke of Hesse, Frederick the Wise et al - WERE the aristocracy in that part of Europe for a 1000 yrs or more. They were Christian Europeans...

Moor of Freising from Pope Benedict's Crest....
https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/elezione/documents/stemma-benedict-xvi.html

---

Okay, now I understand what you are trying to prove.
Not sure if I care enough to research it, but I appreciate
that you have given an answer to what it is that you are after.

---

Yes, I get it now. It's like when Rufus the 13th apostle got left out of the Bible. Because he was black.

When you've breathed the air, drank the water eaten from the land in Europe for 40 thousand years, you're no longer African....

No matter what genetic or phenotypical similarities these people may have or had with anybody from Africa - they are uniquely European by nationality, customs, traditions and artifacts. Their DNA was even modified slightly by those environmental factors at the time.

I'll try to demonstrate the same but, more concisely about the American artifacts...

DNA is modified by environment?

Your science is as good as your history

https://www.rigb.org/explore-science/explore/blog/how-does-environment-affect-your-dna#:~:text=Chemical%20pollutants%20can%20increase%20the,are%20switched%20on%20or%20off.

Common knowledge

Common knowledge

https://www.encyclopedie-environnement.org/en/health/epigenetics-how-the-environment-influences-our-genes/

CanyonAg77 said:

---

DNA is modified by environment?

Your science is as good as your history

---

Nah, I think he has a point there.

Most scientists believe that all Europeans were probably initially dark-skinned and lost that pigmentation through genetic mutations.

Also, environmental epigenetics was disdained by most 20th century scientists, but it's making a roaring comeback. I'm kinda interested in it because some high-end bird dog breeders always believed in it (i.e., that if they hunted their *****es the puppies would be better hunting dogs). It also fits nicely into some YEC scientific theories.

Here's a scientific article that I found randomly through a quick Google search that supports the idea that environment can alter genetics:

Environmental Epigenetics and a Unified Theory of the Molecular Aspects of Evolution: A Neo-Lamarckian Concept that Facilitates Neo-Darwinian Evolution - PMC (nih.gov)

Jack Friday said:

---

When you've breathed the air, drank the water eaten from the land in Europe for 40 thousand years, you're no longer African....

No matter what genetic or phenotypical similarities these people may have or had with anybody from Africa - they are uniquely European by nationality, customs, traditions and artifacts. Their DNA was even modified slightly by those environmental factors at the time.

I'll try to demonstrate the same but, more concisely about the American artifacts...

---

OK, that makes some sense.

Doing a bit of quick google research, it also appears that black African individuals also appeared occasionally in Europe throughout its history and some were even of the nobility. Those facts appear to have been swept under the rug startingin the late 17th and early 18th centuries when racism exploded concurrently with the explosion of the African slave trade.

He's not saying a few. He's saying all.

Is he?

Quote:

---

When you've breathed the air, drank the water eaten from the land in Europe for 40 thousand years, you're no longer African....

No matter what genetic or phenotypical similarities these people may have or had with anybody from Africa - they are uniquely European by nationality, customs, traditions and artifacts. Their DNA was even modified slightly by those environmental factors at the time.

---

The clarity of his writing definitely could stand improvement!

There was lots of violence and inter-marriage happening back then. From what I understand, the 30 Years War had a lot to do with the changing of the guard and record-keeping after 1648 in Central Europe...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

This is the Chafariz d'El-Rey...
It's a famous painting that's in a private collection and not in a museum.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chafariz_d%27El-Rey

It's a street scene from Lisbon, Portugal around 1570-80. The guy on horseback is some kind of Christian authority figure....The Muslim Moors had been gone from the Iberian Peninsula for almost a century. The Thirty Years War happened 40-50 yrs later.

The demographics would be a little different but - an urban street scene like this would not be uncommon in the Holy Roman Empire, W. Europe or S. Europe before the Thirty Years War...

Between 40,000 yrs ago and 1570-80, not everyone in Christian Europe had lost their pigmentation...

Quote:

---

Between 40,000 yrs ago and 1570-80, not everyone in Christian Europe had lost their pigmentation...

---

Why do you think the figure in that painting is evidence in support of that statement? Could not that figure or his recent ancestors been recent immigrants?

For example, Victor Hugo's father was the son of a French nobleman and a black Caribbean slave. His father ended up as a general in Napoleon's army. His hypothetical presence in any contemporaneous paintings is only evidence that someone of African descent was present at that place at that time.

There's a lot more pigmentation on that painting than him...

Jack Friday said:

---

There's a lot more pigmentation on that painting than him...

---

True. I noticed that also. But it's not evidence of people with dark pigmentation being in Europe for a long time. They may have been, but a painting simply is not evidence of that.

I googled this image a bit out of curiosity. It appears that at the time this painting was made, Portugal had expanded its sea trading dramatically and was in the midst of an economic boom. One region that Portugal traded heavily with was Africa. It is very likely that the people with dark pigmentation shown in the painting arrived in Portugal recently as part of that trading activity.

To flip it around, if I showed you a painting from the same period of a scene in a port market in Africa that showed a few people without pigmentation, would that be evidence that low pigmentation people had been in Africa for tens of thousands of years? Of course not; it would correctly be seen as evidence of the recent arrival of Europeans in Africa.

These guys beg to differ and they were some of the highest authorities on the subject 100+ years ago..

Boyd Dawkins, Thomas Shore, GF Scott Elliott, John Beddoe, David Macritchie, Alexander Winchell and SP Scott

Find my Boyd Dawkins quote and read it carefully...

I did read your partial Dawkins quote and don't see how it is on point on this issue at all. Can you summarize his and others' arguments are on the point we're discussing and the support that they provide for their arguments?

Although it's possible, I'm very skeptical. You'd think that the gene that allowed for pigmentation would have been drowned out after 40,000 years of intermarriage.

And the presence of black people is easily explained by trade and movement of peoples. Ancient peoples traveled a heck of a lot more than we give them credit.

Whatever, it's not that important (although it appears to be important to you for some reason). I have no problems whatsoever for most if not all of the earth having been populated by peoples moving out of Africa in the distant past. If some latent genes survived, OK.

Is there some reason that this issue seems to be of particular importance to you?

There are more fascinating American artifactual anomalies located in Germany on the very first video in this post - that got me looking into these people...

The subject is incredibly interesting to me considering most people's assumptions about the history of Europe and it's people.

According to Boyd Dawkins - A NON-ARYAN race of people took over the European continent from the neanderthals and:

"penetrated into every part of the Continent"....."from the Pillars of Hercules and as far NE as Germany and Denmark"

pgs 315 and 341
Early Man in Britain and His Place in the Tertiary Period - Boyd Dawkins 1880
Dawkins calls the neanderthals "cavemen" in his book.

That means that a non-aryan people have been in Europe for at least 40,000 yrs...all the way up to the Holy Roman Empire, the Chafariz d'El-Rey and beyond and maintained their pigmentation genetics - in some form or fashion **Not all of these people had the same experience....The 30 Years War appears to be a major transition event where the demographics of C. Europe change dramatically...

******************************************
Here's the visual human profile of the people Dawkins speaks of thru skeleton reproduction in GF Scott Elliotts Book:

https://tinypic.host/image/DdCT8M
https://tinypic.host/image/DdCeXk
https://tinypic.host/image/DdCeXk

PREHISTORIC MAN AND HIS STORY
A SKETCH OF THE HISTORY OF MANKIND FROM THE EARLIEST TIMES
BY PROF. G. F. SCOTT ELLIOT - 1915

And you're absolutely correct...Ancient people from both hemispheres have successfully navigated the oceans freely and established international dominions long before Columbus...