What if Ney had organized a combined arms assault with some rallied infantry instead of throwing unsupported cavalry against the British squares? One column behind the grand cavalry charges would have shattered the about to break line. The Guard would have still been intact to fend off the Prussians.

Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

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Quote:

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In regards to the Luftwaffe finishing off the RAF thus allowing the Germans to invade England? The Royal Navy would not allow it. You would be able to walk across the English channel on the hulls of sunken German and Royal Navy ships right now.

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Fair enough. So what if the German Navy manages to take control of the French Navy rather than most of those ships being scuttled or sailed to friendly/neutral ports?

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They would be on the bottom too. RN had the largest Navy in the World with more active surface units available than the French and German navies combined: 191 to 125.

15 to 9 in Battleships
7 to 1 in Aircraft carriers
15 to 9 in Cruisers
41 to 6 in Light Cruisers
113 to 97 in Destroyers

Going a little further on the what-if-the-Confederates-won theme, when would slavery have finally ended in North America?

Stasco said:

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Going a little further on the what-if-the-Confederates-won theme, when would slavery have finally ended in North America?

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Interesting question. De jure or de facto?

Related...

I'm binge watching Season 2 of Man in the High Castle on Amazon Prime right now...

The premise is "what if the Axis Powers won WWII."

Corporal Punishment said:

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Related...

I'm binge watching Season 2 of Man in the High Castle on Amazon Prime right now...

The premise is "what if the Axis Powers won WWII."

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Im up to episode 2 and am having a hard time following the characters. Confused as to why the girl just claimed asylum in the German embassy in ( I think) San Fran.

Eliminatus said:

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Definitely a long chain of very powerful what ifs. I am not sure I can see every single one of them but I am on board with the '91 invasion as being the most pivotal point in our ME interactions to date. That fork in the road of invade/ do not invade is huge in terms of ME stability currently.

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For sure, a lot of my follow-on actions are up for debate but... I guess if we really wanted to go back to the even bigger what-if, that would be:

• What if the Americans never discover oil in Saudi Arabia in 1933? Then there might be no oil discoveries in Kuwait, or Iraq, Iran, etc.
• What if President Roosevelt never meets King Abdul-Aziz in 1945? Then there wouldn't be as much cooperation between the USA and Saudi Arabia.

A lot of what ifs for sure but it's fun to think about without A, B never happens which leads to C and then D, E, F, etc.

What if Hitler lets the Panzers move from waiting for the Allied invasion at Pas de Calais and they are in pmace to successfully repulse the Normandy invasion?

Stasco said:

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Going a little further on the what-if-the-Confederates-won theme, when would slavery have finally ended in North America?

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Oh, I like this one. Never even considered it. I have absolutely no idea either.

option short side said:

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Instead of attacking Russia in 1941, the Germans commit a force capable of conquering North Africa and the Middle East. Germany would have secured the Medditeranean and oil reserves.

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They would have had to take Malta first.

XUSCR said:

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What if Hitler lets the Panzers move from waiting for the Allied invasion at Pas de Calais and they are in pmace to successfully repulse the Normandy invasion?

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The pretty much were obliterated by Allied naval guns and CAS anyway.

What's the Malta deal? I've never read much on it, but why would that have been so hard, and why was it so important?

What if Germany's allies in WWII weren't incompetent? (Looking at you Italy). Didn't have to divert troops to bail them out of the Balkans or N.Africa? The Italian fleet (which looked good on Paper) was able to gain control of the Mediterranean? And the Germans went into Russia with good quality a Romanian and Hungarian troops? On that note, they treated the Ukrainians well and welcomed them into the Wehrmacht?

What if Meade counterattacks on July 3?

What if Fannin is able to reinforce the Alamo garrison?

(Speaking of the Alamo does anyone give and credence to the number of Alamo defenders being around 250 instead of the usual 180-189)

Rabid Cougar said:

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option short side said:

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Instead of attacking Russia in 1941, the Germans commit a force capable of conquering North Africa and the Middle East. Germany would have secured the Medditeranean and oil reserves.

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They would have had to take Malta first.

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Eventually absolutely. However, when Hitler committed an entire Luftwaffe wing to the Mediterranean they were able to neutralize Malta and thus adequately supply the Afrika Corps. Hitler was forced to transfer most of that wing to Southern Russia. Those few months when the entire wing was committed to the Med theater is evidence that Historians regularly use to cite that the Germans took the wrong island when they invaded Crete.

The Original AG 76 said:

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Stive said:

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What's the Malta deal? I've never read much on it, but why would that have been so hard, and why was it so important?

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The British defense of Fortress Malta is one the greatest , if not THE greatest, unsung stories of the war. Against impossible odds and relentless German air superiority that small island withstood relentless pounding and a blockade. Malta's small air force was able to prevent the Germans from developing a secure air corridor across the Med that would allow for unfettered supply lines to their North Africa forces.
Had Malta fallen it is likely that a well supplied and re-inforced Afrika Corp could have taken Egypt, the canal and the arabian oil fields.

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Very good summation. I think the Germans had two options: 1) commit the Luftwaffe to air supremacy in the Africa theater. When they did they were bale to neutralize Malta. However this strategy is not efficient and requires a sustained commitment of resources the Germans did not have. 2) They could have invaded, however after the heavy price of victory in Crete Hitler became squeamish about using paratroopers.

Had the Germans employed this strategy they would have been poised to strike at the Russian oilfields in the caucuses.

cbr said:

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What if the Germans conquered France in 1914 - it seems it was very close.

No ww2. No Soviet Union. I mean, it's a complete and total reset.

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What if Belgium had allowed Germany to sweep through on it's way to France or decided it wasn't worth fighting a battle they'd certainly lose. Or if Britain had decided it wasn't worth the risk of war with a massive land army like Germany's to defend the neutrality of a country that wouldn't be able to stop the Germans anyways?

Subduing France via the Schlieffen plan becomes a lot more realistic all of the sudden. Hell, they probably could've pulled it off anyways.

Stive said:

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What's the Malta deal? I've never read much on it, but why would that have been so hard, and why was it so important?

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As mentioned above. An unsinkable aircraft carrier that allowed the RAF to shoot the Luftwaffe resupply transports to pieces. Also a safe haven for RN ships and transports from Luftwaffe and Italian air force and navy on their way across the Med. to Alexandria.

AirplaneAg09 said:

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cbr said:

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What if the Germans conquered France in 1914 - it seems it was very close.

No ww2. No Soviet Union. I mean, it's a complete and total reset.

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What if Belgium had allowed Germany to sweep through on it's way to France or decided it wasn't worth fighting a battle they'd certainly lose. Or if Britain had decided it wasn't worth the risk of war with a massive land army like Germany's to defend the neutrality of a country that wouldn't be able to stop the Germans anyways?

Subduing France via the Schlieffen plan becomes a lot more realistic all of the sudden. Hell, they probably could've pulled it off anyways.

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yep. and possibly english and german rapproachment simmers down the possibilty of any world wars. the century of european suicide is instead a century of european expansion. the world might well be a much better place.

What if JFK hadn't been killed?

The entire Vietnam war may have been different. There's plenty of historians who think Kennedy might have been ready to get out after the election. However, he put himself in a tough spot with his actions in Vietnam up to that point and there's a good chance he may have felt like he was unable to pull out without saving face. He was from the ww2 generation, and the foreign policy thought of that time was to be tough with other countries, the opposite of what they'd all seen Chamberlain do at Munich. On a personal level, Kennedy had watched his fathers career destroyed because he was labeled a defeatist. The thinking to stand strong may have kept us in the war anyway, and maybe kennedy would have a very different historical legacy today had the chickens come home to roost in Vietnam for him instead of lbj.

On a similar note, if RFK hadn't been killed, there's a chance every presidential election since 68 would be different

dcbowers said:

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Surprised nobody has mentioned, "What if Giuseppe Zangara's attempted assassination of Franklin D. Roosevelt on February 15, 1933 had been successful?"

Phillip K. Dick has written one possibility (Man in the High Castle). Not sure how plausible that outcome is, but we would be living in a different world. Vastly different New Deal, Social Security, isolationalism, Lend Lease.

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That's a really good one. That was only the first year of his presidency too. So much would've changed

aggiejim70 said:

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Let's cut to the chase.......Suppose Charles Martel had been defeated by the invading Muslim army in the eighth
century. There was no other Christian army of any size in Europe. Muslims could have headed toward Rome and the rest they say would be history.

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Do you think the Moors would have attempted to settle and colonize Western Europe or behaved like the barbarian raiding parties in the late Roman Enpire?