hph6203 said:

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The driving force behind the price reductions is not the other auto manufacturers losing their credits, it's the market leader dropping prices. The market leader is also one of the few manufacturers who receives the credit on the majority of models they produce and receive the credit on their most popular model at every trim level. These cars are already priced at or below their competition, despite receiving the credit.

What does that tell you?

Hint: It requires an understanding beyond Business 101 Day 1 or Econ 101 Day 1.

Another hint: There are three kinds of car manufacturers, Toyota, Mercedes and Ferrari.

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I'm going to need another hint.

I'm not sure you can bin all car makers into 3 categories.

Where do you put Tesla? Because it isn't like ANY of those.

How do you characterize Audi-VW? They are closest to Toyota, but much broader -- including Audi, VW, Skoda, SEAT, Lamborghini, Bentley, Ducati, and Porsche (although it is somewhat debatable if Audi-VW owns Porsche or Porsche owns Audi-VW -- their holding company structure is nuts.

htxag09 said:

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A couple points.

First, I don't overall disagree with your numbers. I don't necessarily agree that the Tesla is as nice as an x5. But just agree to disagree there. Only points on your numbers are you're ignoring, on average, teslas require tires more often. Now, you may have been aggressively driving the x5, so could be a wash. But I appreciate you not adding in the "fact" that every component of an ice will need replaced (transmission, suspension, etc.)

Second, if it's such a no brainer then the market should easily show that. So get rid of the damn tax credits. I'd wager 90%+ of the "hate" or angst towards EVs is because of the subsidies and the regulations to mandate.

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Why would Teslas require tires more often?

Power and weight, it's not just a ratio.

rme said:

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Power and weight, it's not just a ratio.

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X5 weighs more than a MY, so only if the driver uses all that extra power.

Hertz is flooding the market with them

drumboy said:

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rme said:

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Power and weight, it's not just a ratio.

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X5 weighs more than a MY, so only if the driver uses all that extra power.

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78k miles on my 3, that 0-60 rush hasn't gotten old

Audi/Porsche split the market that Mercedes operates in. VW competes against Toyota.

You can achieve profitability by maximizing profit per vehicle or you can do it by maximizing your addressable market at lower profits, increasing volumes and by virtue of increasing volumes, drive down costs. The $7,500 credit allows manufacturers to compete at lower price points and drive growth and cost reductions faster, otherwise they'd focus on producing lower volume higher profit vehicles like Tesla did earlier in their history.

Instead, despite credits, Tesla is producing more vehicles at lower prices than they ever have. Functionally every single vehicle Tesla produces today is available at a price below the price it was introduced at, whether that vehicle was introduced in 2012 (Model S), 2015 (Model X), 2017 (Model 3) or 2020 (Model Y). That's despite 20-30% inflation in the broader market and 20-50% inflation in the auto market (dependent upon base year).

Tesla cut their average cost per vehicle by nearly 10% last year, and those cost reductions are going to continue. They're driving towards building a <$30,000 (rumor is $25,000) sticker vehicle in the second half of the year with aims to double or more the sales of the Model Y with that vehicle. That pricing is achieved by increasing component production for EVs reducing unit costs.


Assuming that a credit is going to inherently increase prices is an overly simplistic assumption. The credits are nowhere near as bad as CAFE regulations, because in order for credits to be distributed the vehicle has to benefit N.A. workers and the consumer has to choose to purchase the vehicle.

07ag said:

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drumboy said:

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rme said:

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Power and weight, it's not just a ratio.

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X5 weighs more than a MY, so only if the driver uses all that extra power.

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78k miles on my 3, that 0-60 rush hasn't gotten old

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2k miles on my MYP and I agree.

1agswitchin4lanes said:

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Hertz is flooding the market with them

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What is their reasoning?

Been discussed in this thread.

Higher maintenance costs, partly because people getting them go zoom zoom partly because everything is more expensive to repair, costs of the cars have been dropping, thus dropping the premium they can charge for rentals, and less demand for the rentals, I'd assume mainly because of range anxiety (right or wrong).

maroon barchetta said:

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1agswitchin4lanes said:

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Hertz is flooding the market with them

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What is their reasoning?

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https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/hertz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/

And you don't have to deal with the antiquated BS dealer model.

maroon barchetta said:

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1agswitchin4lanes said:

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Hertz is flooding the market with them

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What is their reasoning?

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They were going to sell these vehicles around this time regardless of whether they worked for their business or not. They're all about 60-70,000 miles which is fairly standard dumping time for a fleet vehicle.

They're not replacing all of them because of the repair costs and price reductions. Tesla prices started rocketing up around the time they started purchasing vehicles (end of year 2021) and they didn't get fleet discounts, the prices then cratered as the market caught up to the backlog of demand. There was a global auto shortage throughout 2022. If you're keeping a car 2 years those price reductions suck, they suck less for a person keeping a car 7 years.

Repair costs are higher because they're growing new sales and have to balance repair parts and parts going to new vehicles. There's also no established third party repair market yet.

Also not the smartest business decision on their part to be the company that helped consumers learn a new way to drive (one pedal driving), on a by comparison performance vehicle, so their accident rates were higher.

I'll also point out that the primary cost savings of an EV is something that a rental car company doesn't even realize as a difference. They're charging customers for gas and customers for charging, they don't care about cost per mile. And for the customer an EV is generally a less convenient car to rent, because they're not realizing the opportunity to charge at home. Meaning the rental company can't charge a premium to realize the lesser cost to charge, and public charging isn't that significantly cheaper than gas.

maroon barchetta said:

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1agswitchin4lanes said:

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Hertz is flooding the market with them

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What is their reasoning?

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I don't have anything against a Tesla, but I wouldn't want one as a rental. I'm not familiar with their one petal driving. I don't want to figure out where I need to go for charging (even though it has a nice navigation feature). Also, when I do rent a car, I'm usually driving a good distance, so range anxiety comes into play.

I Love Tesla but never as a rental. Going to a different city and not knowing the infrastructure would be too much extra trouble esp with no home charger. This is one of the reasons I would not get a Non Tesla. I need to be confident about supercharging is I need it and not show up to a charger disappointed.

maroon barchetta said:

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$2k brake jobs?

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I remember 7 yrs ago for my X5, I paid $1500 for a brake job. Not sure if this was just pads, rotors, or whatever was needed.

I would be shocked if a brake job from a BMW dealership is less than $1500.

Superdave1993 said:

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cav14 said:

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I have had my Tesla Model 3 Performance since 2018. Here are some stats on it so far:

• 115,000 miles
• 89% Battery Capacity Left
• Charging Cost - $5485

~ 70% at Home - $1983
~ 25% at Superchargers - $3503
~ 5% at hotels, other homes, AirBnBs, etc. - $0

• Maintenance Cost - $2626
~ 2 Sets of Tires - $2432

~ 12V Battery Replacement - $150

~ 2 Air Filters - $40

~ 1 Windshield Wiper Fluid - $4

~ 0 Brake Pad Replacement (yes, still on the original pads) - $0

~ and of course no oil/oil filter, no transmission fluid, no antifreeze coolant, no spark plugs, no fuel filter, no timing belts, etc. - $0

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How have you gone through only one bottle of windshield washer fluid?

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Because I don't use my windshield wiper fluid that much in general for any of the vehicles that I've owned. I wash my car regularly and in-between I'll manually clean my windshields with RainX when I'm at home and/or use a squeegee at a gas station.

Medaggie said:

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I Love Tesla but never as a rental. Going to a different city and not knowing the infrastructure would be too much extra trouble esp with no home charger. This is one of the reasons I would not get a Non Tesla. I need to be confident about supercharging is I need it and not show up to a charger disappointed.

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That's true....I got a Model 3 from Enterprise in Vegas last year and they could've done a better job with some basic info, starting with how to unlock the car (hold keycard near B pillar).

Once in I got used to one pedal driving by the team I was out of the garage as I have ridden in a few Teslas and talked to owners. Even shifting into D/R takes some know-how, which they don't provide. They really should just share the Tesla Tutorials Youtube page that Tesla sends to new owners.

Once in it, finding a SuperCharger, which was free w/ the rental, is an easy two click operation on the screen. I had a RWD and was shocked at how much battery was used going to Valley of Fire and back the first day but range anxiety is strong when first driving an EV I'm sure.

agracer said:

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cav14 said:

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I have had my Tesla Model 3 Performance since 2018. Here are some stats on it so far:

• 115,000 miles
• 89% Battery Capacity Left
• Charging Cost - $5485

~ 70% at Home - $1983
~ 25% at Superchargers - $3503
~ 5% at hotels, other homes, AirBnBs, etc. - $0

• Maintenance Cost - $2626
~ 2 Sets of Tires - $2432

~ 12V Battery Replacement - $150

~ 2 Air Filters - $40

~ 1 Windshield Wiper Fluid - $4

~ 0 Brake Pad Replacement (yes, still on the original pads) - $0

~ and of course no oil/oil filter, no transmission fluid, no antifreeze coolant, no spark plugs, no fuel filter, no timing belts, etc. - $0

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7-cents per mile is pretty low operating cost!

Do Tesla's have higher insurance costs? IIRC they do so that has to factor into the overall costs.

I did some quick math on my wife's Honda CRV and 115,000 miles would be about $15,000 in gas, oil, tires, battery, brakes, etc.. But the insurance is pretty low on the CRV.

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My Model 3 Performance was $65,000 when I bought it. A Honda CRV starts round $30,000. So it shouldn't be surprising that the Model 3 performance would have higher insurance costs than a much cheaper Honda. But comparing the Model 3 Performance to other vehicles within its class like the BMW M3 or the Audi RS5, the insurance costs are roughly the same.

If you're looking for an EV right now that is more comparable in price and insurance costs, then look at the Chevy Bolt EUV. It's the most cost effective EV especially if all you need it for is to get around town. Just don't take it on any road trips soon since it doesn't have access to Tesla's much better Supercharger network right now and it's DC fast charging is limited to just 50 kW. Tesla says they will come out with their $25,000 EV sometime in 2025, but who knows.

Here's another comparison....the MYP has 500ft lb or torque and a 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, which is faster than BMW X5 M Competition.

You can get a MYP for less than $50K while the X5 M is over $90K. I bet the Beem has a nicer interior.

TexAg2001 said:

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Service is also horrible. We've had to take it in 4 times for relatively minor warranty issues and the soonest available appointments have typically been 2-3 weeks out.

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We have the same issue with Volvo and Ram in the Austin area.

Did you get a Model X? I remember someone posting about a very long wait for an X.

My MYP buying process in December was much different. Ordered on a Tuesday and immediately went through the forms, uploaded 3rd party insurance, paid the down payment and lined up financing through Tesla.

Two days later, I got notification that I could schedule pickup and I picked the first slot, which was on the next Thursday at the Cypress location (formerly Gander Mtn).

Pickup was nearly seamless but was delayed about 15 minutes so I almost missed the cheesy synchronized 'Light Show' w/ 4 Model Xs with the dancing doors. My phone turned into the key once I accepted delivery but I did have to ask someone how to pair bluetooth as that's separate from the key bluetooth I guess.

The car had the temp tags taped on the back glass and the taxes were included in the OTD financed price. The plates & registration sticker took about 5-6 weeks to arrive. I did have a friend that bought a MYP in 2022 and he mentioned that he has to go to the court house to pay taxes and get the registration.

It is a Model Y Long Range. Ordered in October 2021 and arrived in July 2022. This is when vehicles were taking a long time due to chip shortages and other supply chain issues so it cannot be totally blamed on Tesla. The frustration was that they kept bumping it a few weeks instead of just telling us what the new date was. It felt like they did it that way to keep us from cancelling the order.

The one good thing is that the vehicle price was locked in at time of order. The retail price of the vehicle at time of delivery was $12k more than what we paid for it.

JamesE4 said:

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htxag09 said:

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I'd love to see your math of $1k / 10k miles of savings in maintenance costs….

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I am comparing it to the cost of my wife's Mercedes, which is > $600 for oil changes. Fair point - most cars may not be that much. Let's go with $1500 per 10k miles, so $18k at 120k miles

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no offense, but you're a fool to pay $600 for an oil change. Most people pay ~$50 for an oil change.

You're $500 math is bad too. No on is paying $500/10,000 miles in maintenance costs. Even with a $2,000 timing belt change at 100,000 miles, that's still only $200 per 10,000. Ad in TWO oil changes and you're at $300, MAX for 90% of drivers.

agracer said:

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JamesE4 said:

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htxag09 said:

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I'd love to see your math of $1k / 10k miles of savings in maintenance costs….

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I am comparing it to the cost of my wife's Mercedes, which is > $600 for oil changes. Fair point - most cars may not be that much. Let's go with $1500 per 10k miles, so $18k at 120k miles

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no offense, but you're a fool to pay $600 for an oil change. Most people pay ~$50 for an oil change.

You're $500 math is bad too. No on is paying $500/10,000 miles in maintenance costs. Even with a $2,000 timing belt change at 100,000 miles, that's still only $200 per 10,000. Ad in TWO oil changes and you're at $300, MAX for 90% of drivers.

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I do oil changes at home and just with supplies (Mobil 1 FS & Toyota filters) I'm over $50 per oil change. Where can you get one for $50?

Can you please tell me where I can get an oil change for $50?

I have been to jiffy lube with a coupon and its close to $100. I have a mechanic friend who will do the oil change for $20 labor if I bring in the oil. Looking on amazon for the cheapest its $5/quart so for the min of 5 quart is $25.

So minimum with a friend discount its $50 after you add tax before even getting an oil filter.

TexAg2001 said:

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Teslag said:

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One thing I do wish others would copy is Teslas buying process. It was so refreshing to not have to deal with a sales person or a finance guy. And all auto finance guys should burn in hell.

Pick your car. Pay for car in the app. Accept delivery with the app. App turns into a key. Drive off.

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I agree that finance guys should burn in hell and generally can't stand salespeople, but I totally disagree with the Tesla model of car delivery being smooth. Some parts were nice, but much of it was not. I'm sure each location is different, but here is how the experience was at Houston Westchase location:

• Our main question was about temporary tags. We were informed that we had to go to the tax office ourself to pay the taxes and get temp tags. We were taken by surprise since dealerships always handled that for us on previous vehicle purchases. Sure, a review of the purchase agreement would show that you don't pay them for taxes, but that is unusual in TX, it wasn't explained to us in advance, and we didn't think to even ask. This was Friday afternoon before the July 4th weekend, so the soonest we could go to the tax office was Tuesday morning. They made us sign a document basically saying "we recognize we are operating a vehicle that is not properly registered and could be in trouble if we get pulled over for not having tags." Also, the $3,500 tax payment is not something we had planned for and should have been explained prior to purchase.

Service is also horrible. We've had to take it in 4 times for relatively minor warranty issues and the soonest available appointments have typically been 2-3 weeks out.

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Huh? HTF can that be a surprise? Have you never purchased...well ANYTHING in your life, let alone a car?

drumboy said:

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agracer said:

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JamesE4 said:

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htxag09 said:

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I'd love to see your math of $1k / 10k miles of savings in maintenance costs….

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I am comparing it to the cost of my wife's Mercedes, which is > $600 for oil changes. Fair point - most cars may not be that much. Let's go with $1500 per 10k miles, so $18k at 120k miles

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no offense, but you're a fool to pay $600 for an oil change. Most people pay ~$50 for an oil change.

You're $500 math is bad too. No on is paying $500/10,000 miles in maintenance costs. Even with a $2,000 timing belt change at 100,000 miles, that's still only $200 per 10,000. Ad in TWO oil changes and you're at $300, MAX for 90% of drivers.

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I do oil changes at home and just with supplies (Mobil 1 FS & Toyota filters) I'm over $50 per oil change. Where can you get one for $50?

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Firestone near me charges $39.99 for regular and $69.99 for synthetic. Just wait for a coupon which they email all the time. I'm still getting a coupon from the BMW dealer for $59.99 synthetic oil/filter changes for my old 435 which I would occasionally use b/c it took 7qt of oil and I could barely but the oil and filters for that much. Each time they had $1,000 in recommended maintenance it needed (and if it really did, I'd do it myself). So I just was using and abusing their loss leader programs.

Wal-Mart has M1 for $30 for 5qts and $5 for a filter. My old Lexus took 6.5qts so had to buy $70 of oil/filters for 2 changes.

https://www.walmart.com/browse/auto-tires/mobil-1-oil/91083_1104294_1072084_3088493_4644927

https://www.walmart.com/ip/FRAM-Extra-Guard-Oil-Filter-PH4967-10K-mile-Filter-Lexus-Nissan-Scion-Suzuki-Toyota-Fits-select-2018-2023-TOYOTA-RAV4-CAMRY/16817232?athbdg=L1600&from=/search

Granted, a merc will be more because of the quantity and synthetic oils, but not $550 more.

TTL is usually shown as a line item on total purchase price of the vehicle. Most people either pay for it with their down payment or it gets rolled into their financing. I've never had to go down to the tax office and pay taxes directly for anything other than property tax.

In this case, our entire down payment was applied to the cost of the vehicle and we had to pay an additional $3,500 to the tax office. Had we been aware that we needed to do that, we likely would have made our down payment $3,500 less than it was and used that money for the taxes.

Again, we should have noticed that TT&L was missing from the itemized total, so I'll lay the blame partially on us, but it also should have been explained better by Tesla because I would consider it unusual. I've purchased 9 vehicles from dealerships and never had to pay taxes directly to the tax office before this.

Medaggie said:

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Can you please tell me where I can get an oil change for $50?

I have been to jiffy lube with a coupon and its close to $100. I have a mechanic friend who will do the oil change for $20 labor if I bring in the oil. Looking on amazon for the cheapest its $5/quart so for the min of 5 quart is $25.

So minimum with a friend discount its $50 after you add tax before even getting an oil filter.

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https://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/sem/oil-change/?cmp=sem_google_1733327249_73386248612_firestone%20oil%20change_int=&_vsrefdom=sem&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuMLV7dCmhAMVczbUAR3TTQQxEAAYASAAEgIuQ_D_BwE#

$29.99 for standard oil change or $15 off synthetic. They don't publish the synthetic price online.

I've had very good luck Firestone when I've used them for some routine stuff, tires and a radiator swap on my old minivan. They even warrantied a part for me that they didn't need to in another city (kid had car at college).

I bought 2 MY in Austin and my experience is completely different.

I will admit the first time was very confusing because I expected the same maze of paperwork as typical dealerships. Plus had no idea how to register my own car or where to go.

2nd time, it was like going to HEB. 15 minutes, out the door.

Service has been flawless too but I will admit that there has not been any immediate needs so I typically wait 1-2 wks for an open slot but its done on the app. Mobile service which have been half my visits are a great blessing. Software recalls are over the air.

My wife's Honda odyssey needed a software update awhile back and took 1 month for an appt taking them the whole day. She has a minor recall for some seatbelt issue and was told I would need to leave the car over night.

OEM service is a pain compared to my Tesla.

I agree, the TTL is very confusing but I already was aware with some online search.