Just a random note

Teslas seem to get totaled for very small amounts of damage. It's like they are impossible to repair or something.

Complete Idiot said:

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Madman said:

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Just a random note

Teslas seem to get totaled for very small amounts of damage. It's like they are impossible to repair or something.

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"seem to"

"it's like"


F16, ladies and gentlemen

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He's not wrong.

Quote:

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Insurers are increasingly writing off or "totaling" a Tesla even after light damage because of their complexity and repair cost, according to market-watchers at Kelley Blue Book.

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https://www.businessinsider.com/why-tesla-cars-get-totaled-insurance-repair-costs-2023-6?op=1

Tesla's are very safe for passengers in accidents, but are totaled at a high rate -- and have among the highest accident rates in the industry.

Some of that is suspected to be over-relying on the autopilot, and not being prepared when it "disengages". Tesla had to issue a recall because of this.

As discussed earlier in the thread (about Hertz selling its Teslas) new drivers being unfamiliar with their speed and "one pedal" driving are another contributor.

The hertz deal also had a lot to do with minor stuff being more expensive then other cars.

Also, I wonder how much of it is durability and quality. I'd wager most people who own Tesla's on here treat them well. Nobody treats rental cars well, regardless of it being a Tesla or a Camry.

cupofjoe04 said:

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Did you also factor in maintenance costs? Sorry, I missed it if you did.

But- 16K miles should also include at least 3 oil changes, full synthetic could run between $70-100 each. If you want to get super accurate, you would have to include the wear and tear to replaceable parts too (filters, fluids, brakes, etc.).

I don't think the true cost is as simple as comparing gasoline expenses to electricity expenses- as the Tesla has drastically less maintenance costs as well.

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Also need to add something for your time invented. That is one area that gets overlooked imo. All the trips to a gas pump (esp sams or costco where you have to wait half the time for a pump to open up), oil changes, maintenance, etc. That time savings and not having to plan when to do all of that is honestly more important that the $ savings.

Insurance companies still don't know how to handle battery and even minor damage. There are not enough body shops and anything close to battery damage gets totaled. No 3rd party parts so Tesla charge whatever they want. I think this eventually will get fixed when there are more repair shops.


But when someone rear ended me, my model Y was like a rock. Barely moved. I'll take the safety over increased insurance coverage. .

AnyOtherName said:

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JobSecurity said:

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Have you looked at leasing a new one? With a few thousand down you can get a long range around 400 a month

People poop on leases but EVs are one area I think they make a ton of sense. They depreciate like a rock, nobody wants a used EV, battery degradation after 5 years, they're expensive to fix out of warranty, etc

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The cheapest thing I am seeing is $573 for rear wheel, no money down and still owe $4800 at signing. Are you saying to put $3-4k down on top of what is due at signing?

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Going to bump my question here.

Anyone who has leased, are the numbers that are calculated on their site what to expect when you go in? My is needing a new car by the end of the month and this looks like a pretty good option.

Medaggie said:

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Until someone actually owns a Tesla and uses it daily, they don't realize how much better of a lifestyle it is.

I am a high mileage driver, 15k since I bought it late August so projected to be 30k/yr. 1% supercharger for about 30 min total. I have avoided many hours pouring gas, oil changes, regular maintenance and a brake jobs at around 40k. Between my 75kmiles Tesla that was rear ended and this current one for a total of 90k miles, I have taken the care to get maintenance one time for a front ball bearing. Two other times mobile came to my house.
There are zero recommended maintenance intervals bc electric motors are simple without all the belts/parts/sparks they break down.


Anyone who says charging takes too much time are either the 5% who drives alot or don't have a home charger.

For my family and I would guess 90% of home owners, it's close to a perfect solution as you can ask for. The ones on this board who it doesn't work for is the vocal minority.

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Excellent post! My Tesla is so much more enjoyable to own and drive than anything I have had in the past, and i have had trucks, 4runners, bmw, lexus, Hybrids, etc.

This is probably the highest mileage EV in the world, a 2014 Model S. 1.9 million kilometers, 3 battery replacements one of which was a refurbished battery that I don't believe actually failed but was a temporary replacement while he waited for a new one. Given the rate of battery price reductions and the documented durability of them I wouldn't be overly concerned about battery replacement costs. Personally I wouldn't buy a used EV while the market figures out pricing and the deals on new Model Y are too good (provided you qualify for the Tax credit). Used Model Y's are being priced for people that don't qualify for the credit.

Learn battery types, charge NCM batteries to 80% and limit the frequency of super charging and the battery will pay for itself by the time it craps out.

1.9 verschlafen🙈 pic.twitter.com/2J72Rmiu0G

— Hansjörg von Gemmingen - Hornberg (@gem8mingen) November 14, 2023

Medaggie said:

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Until someone actually owns a Tesla and uses it daily, they don't realize how much better of a lifestyle it is.

I am a high mileage driver, 15k since I bought it late August so projected to be 30k/yr. 1% supercharger for about 30 min total. I have avoided many hours pouring gas, oil changes, regular maintenance and a brake jobs at around 40k. Between my 75kmiles Tesla that was rear ended and this current one for a total of 90k miles, I have taken the care to get maintenance one time for a front ball bearing. Two other times mobile came to my house.
There are zero recommended maintenance intervals bc electric motors are simple without all the belts/parts/sparks they break down.


Anyone who says charging takes too much time are either the 5% who drives alot or don't have a home charger.

For my family and I would guess 90% of home owners, it's close to a perfect solution as you can ask for. The ones on this board who it doesn't work for is the vocal minority.

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Agree completely. I have had my Y LR since June - approaching 10k miles. No noticeable loss of range. All home charging except for one Houston to Dallas round trip before New Years.

I calculate fuel savings of around $1000 per 10k miles - maintenance cost savings probably the same, so $2k savings per 10k miles. So even if you had to replace the battery at 120k miles, you would have saved $20-24k at that point, so could replace if needed. However, as previously mentioned, battery life is expected to be more than 250k, so likely not a problem at 120k anyway.

I love not needing to buy gas every week - the extra 30 minutes time spent charging on the Dallas trip is offset by hours of time buying gas over the year.

htxag09 said:

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I'd love to see your math of $1k / 10k miles of savings in maintenance costs….

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I am comparing it to the cost of my wife's Mercedes, which is > $600 for oil changes. Fair point - most cars may not be that much. Let's go with $1500 per 10k miles, so $18k at 120k miles

15 cents per mile is a big number, so is 10.

htxag09 said:

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I mean I'm almost 2 years and at around 16k miles into my car and only maintenance costs I have had are a $100 oil change (about to do my second), windshield wipers, and wiper fluid (which aren't exclusive to ICE vehicles).

Tesla math continues to blow my mind.

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What do you think maintenance costs for a typical ICE vehicle over 120k miles is (excluding tires, windshield fluid and AC)? I think it is over $8k, probably closer to $10-12k for an average high end car.

After having my credit card duped by a scanner at a fuel pump, the idea of charging at home sounds awesome.

htxag09 said:

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I just find it humorous that in these threads the following maintenance costs are by default an absolute for ICE over 100k miles: new transmission, multiple brake jobs, rebuild of every component of the suspension, new fuel pump, power steering, timing belts and chains, entire cooling system, etc.

Yet, by default, EVs won't have battery issues at 100k+ miles, ignore higher repair costs, ignore evidence of going through tires slightly faster, etc.

Again, not saying they aren't cheaper to maintain, they are. I just think it's drastically overblown. Similar to Tesla telling the other poster they saved $2700 in fuel over 15k miles.

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My 05 f150 got 15 mpg,, at $3/gallon, that's $3k in gas (how much is gas nowadays?)

My 3 does 4 miles per kwh,, I pay 13 cents per kwh at home, $487.50 for 15k miles

$2500 in savings over 15k miles for me

Add in 3 oil changes and I'm at 2700 savings

Trinity Ag said:

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07ag said:

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htxag09 said:

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I just find it humorous that in these threads the following maintenance costs are by default an absolute for ICE over 100k miles: new transmission, multiple brake jobs, rebuild of every component of the suspension, new fuel pump, power steering, timing belts and chains, entire cooling system, etc.

Yet, by default, EVs won't have battery issues at 100k+ miles, ignore higher repair costs, ignore evidence of going through tires slightly faster, etc.

Again, not saying they aren't cheaper to maintain, they are. I just think it's drastically overblown. Similar to Tesla telling the other poster they saved $2700 in fuel over 15k miles.

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My 05 f150 got 15 mpg,, at $3/gallon, that's $3k in gas (how much is gas nowadays?)

My 3 does 4 miles per kwh,, I pay 13 cents per kwh at home, $487.50 for 15k miles

$2500 in savings over 15k miles for me

Add in 3 oil changes and I'm at 2700 savings

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This is true.

But a Tesla vs a F150 is not really apples to apples.

A better comparison is probably something like a BMW 3 series oe Audi A4, which is going to make ~22-25mpg

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Fair,, I'm sure I'm in the minority trading a 13 year old pickup for a Tesla

My example is more real world. I like SUVs. Went from X5 to MY which is a good comparison on price, size, storage, performance.

Right now at 15,600 miles. Will use 15k
MY 4500KW at City Austin rate is about $670. 20% free charge at work. Essentially zero supercharging. Cheaper for me but I'll use $700.

X5 avg about 20mpg premium avg about $3.50 is $2600. One oil change is $100 minimum.

So I have saved $2k for what I believe is a reasonable similar car.

At 100k, that is $13k fuel saving. $1k oil change. 2 brake jobs @$2k each is 4k.

So at minimum, I wil have saved 18k. This is not to mention all the maintenance intervals, timing belt, tune ups, etc. plus hours at the gas station/repair shops

I would be lucky if my x5 cost $20k more in maintenece assuming nothing bad went wrong. You may say well, my Model at would have maintenance too but at 100k, there is no maintenance. I have driven 90k in the MY and only issue was a $250 ball bearing.

Anyone who says there is not significant savings compared to a similar performance SUV is ignorant of the facts.

EVs are just simpler machines with less parts. Price parity is there with a similar performance SUV. Not for the 25k crowd but it is for the 50k crowd.

If Tesla comes out with a sub 30k model, then it's game over for ICE for 90% of drivers. You can chose between .
A camary or a Tesla with better specs for similar price but save $1500/yr driving a Tesla.

It's really a no brainer esp if there is still a $7500 tax credit putting the model below $25k or parity with a Toyota Corolla. So u can pick between a Corolla or a Tesla model 2 that likely will outperform a BMW 3 series.

A couple points.

First, I don't overall disagree with your numbers. I don't necessarily agree that the Tesla is as nice as an x5. But just agree to disagree there. Only points on your numbers are you're ignoring, on average, teslas require tires more often. Now, you may have been aggressively driving the x5, so could be a wash. But I appreciate you not adding in the "fact" that every component of an ice will need replaced (transmission, suspension, etc.)

Second, if it's such a no brainer then the market should easily show that. So get rid of the damn tax credits. I'd wager 90%+ of the "hate" or angst towards EVs is because of the subsidies and the regulations to mandate.

I don't disagree about the tax credit. I think this should never happen but I also believe we should never bail out the oems but it happened. GM got some cheap loans recently in the billions but no o e mentions this. This was essentially a free handout so we can debate what is a bigger handout but regardless ICE oems gets a lot of beneficial assistance.

I can just tell u my experience and I would say I'm an avg driver. Not too aggressive but not slow either. Typically drive 5-10mph above the speed limit.

X5 tire replacement happened about every 35-40k miles which is about the same as my MY with similar $200/tire. So really no difference to MY.


I will agree that the x5 has a nicer interior finish but the MY has a much nicer tech package. Pick whatever you prefer but for me the tech is more important. Looks get old eventually at least for me. Give me better tech any day.

$2k brake jobs?

htxag09 said:

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I'd wager 90%+ of the "hate" or angst towards EVs is because of the subsidies and the regulations to mandate.

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This is something I absolutely agree with.

But it leads to latching onto lots of hopeful "gotchas" like can't drive in the rain, they burn for 4 days, battery unusable in 100K miles, rare earth metals mining is worse than anything in human history, unrepairable, etc.

In reality there are a good number of pros and cons. Really a long list of pros and cons not only for the consumer, but for the manufacturers, the dealerships and service/maintenance end of the business, long term environmental impacts and sustainability, etc.

But cars have only been mass produced for 100 years of human history so it's going to keep evolving.

You can't blame Tesla for the environmentalist financial nonsense.

Tesla also clears ~$1.7 Billion selling emissions credits to manufacturers who can't meet fleet mileage standards -- this isn't just in the US, but Europe as well.

Then 100% of the people must hate the subsidies in the O&G industry too, correct?

nm

A subsidy is subsidy no matter how you slice it. EV tax credits allow people to try EVs and reduce their losses if they discover it does not fit them. It covered my sales tax and negative equity when trading in a Model 3 for a used Miata when I decided to stick with daily driving my F150. Similar to O&G using subsidies to reduce losses in drilling/exploration, ethanol production, declining well outputs, etc.

Being "angry" at one subsidy and not others is a little dumb.

tk for tu juan said:

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A subsidy is subsidy no matter how you slice it. EV tax credits allow people to try EVs and reduce their losses if they discover it does not fit them. It covered my sales tax and negative equity when trading in a Model 3 for a used Miata when I decided to stick with daily driving my F150. Similar to O&G using subsidies to reduce losses in drilling/exploration, ethanol production, declining well outputs, etc.

Being "angry" at one subsidy and not others is a little dumb.

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Wanted to bow out of this argument because it won't go anywhere. But this is silly. Are you really trying to say every single "subsidy" out there is exactly the same and if you agree with one of them you, be default, have to agree with every other one?

As for the tax credit covering your losses…all the tax credit did was allow the manufacturer to increase the price. Highly likely you would have paid roughly the same, maybe a little more, without that tax credit. Definitely a big reason the depreciation is greater on them.

Not as dumb as you thinking the tax credit lead to higher prices when the average price of an EV has fallen significantly over the last year. Tax credit went into effect on January 1, 2023. Average new EV price December 2022 was 61,500. December 2023 the average price was 50,798. Down more than $10,000. That does not include the incentive.

The majority of EV models do not receive access to the tax credit as of Jan 1, 2024, because the tax credit is designed to drive domestic production of EVs and the components and very few vehicle manufacturers meet the domestic component production requirement.

The emission standards are far worse than the tax credit ever was or ever will be, because the tax credit forces manufacturers to build a vehicle that people are willing to buy, whereas the emissions standards for manufacturers to build vehicles whether the consumer wants to buy them or not.

And those models that no longer receive the tax credit are anticipated to drop in price. What does that tell you?

The driving force behind the price reductions is not the other auto manufacturers losing their credits, it's the market leader dropping prices. The market leader is also one of the few manufacturers who receives the credit on the majority of models they produce and receive the credit on their most popular model at every trim level. These cars are already priced at or below their competition, despite receiving the credit.

What does that tell you?

Hint: It requires an understanding beyond Business 101 Day 1 or Econ 101 Day 1.

Another hint: There are three kinds of car manufacturers, Toyota, Mercedes and Ferrari.