Trinity Ag said:

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MTTANK said:

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If you search old tesla listings on cars and bids, you can see that about half or more of them have a new battery. It is a problem, but I would think the newer stuff they are selling now has been improved upon. The good news is they have a good warranty, so just don't own one out of warranty.

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This is complete nonsense.

I just looked at the first 30-40 prior sales and a grand total of 1 had a new high voltage battery installed -- and it was a 2013 replaced under warranty.

A lot of the older cars (6-8 years) have had new 12v batteries -- but that is just the accessory battery, like on your ICE car. That might create some confusion.

There ARE bad batteries out there. There are also F150 3.5 with cam phaser issues.

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We have a thread about buying a Tesla and keeping it for the long term, 250k miles, etc. if you are looking at new plaid auctions in your sample size, I can't help you. Any Tesla that is older will likely have the battery replaced, or be dinged severely price wise and in the comments if not. To say a Tesla battery ten years old with over 120k is not a concern is NONSENSE

Trinity Ag said:

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MTTANK said:

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Trinity Ag said:

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MTTANK said:

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If you search old tesla listings on cars and bids, you can see that about half or more of them have a new battery. It is a problem, but I would think the newer stuff they are selling now has been improved upon. The good news is they have a good warranty, so just don't own one out of warranty.

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This is complete nonsense.

I just looked at the first 30-40 prior sales and a grand total of 1 had a new high voltage battery installed -- and it was a 2013 replaced under warranty.

A lot of the older cars (6-8 years) have had new 12v batteries -- but that is just the accessory battery, like on your ICE car. That might create some confusion.

There ARE bad batteries out there. There are also F150 3.5 with cam phaser issues.

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We have a thread about buying a Tesla and keeping it for the long term, 250k miles, etc. if you are looking at new plaid auctions in your sample size, I can't help you. Any Tesla that is older will likely have the battery replaced, or be dinged severely price wise and in the comments if not. To say a Tesla battery ten years old with over 120k is not a concern is NONSENSE

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You are the one who said "about half of more" on cars and bids needed new batteries -- and you are questioning MY sample?

I was looking primarily at cars older than 2018 -- and there still are almost none.

You pulled that claim out of the air -- and it is flat wrong.

I have said all along that the extreme high mileage performance of Tesla batteries 100k-200k is unknowable, because there isn't a big enough sample of cars that have driven that far. People told horror stories about Hybrids, and generally their batteries have proved much more durable than expected.

Regardless, there should be minimal concern about buying a "used" Model Y, which is going to have a minimum of 6 years warranty on the battery.

If you want to be "that guy" who must drive their car to 250k for philosophical reasons, then set aside some of the gas money savings every month for the 15-20 years it will take to get a Tesla to 250k, and you will have plenty to replace the battery pack and have money left over.

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Claim I pulled was from when I was shopping for a Used S, on mainly cars and bids. My personal Experience brother. A particular S I was looking at had the original battery and was out of warranty. When I looked at the cost of replacement I was shocked. Seemed relevant for somebody shopping for a Y to own long term. I would not want to own one out of warranty. No need to tongue lash a fellow Ag or accuse them of pulling stuff out of thin air and spouting nonsense.

JobSecurity said:

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Have you looked at leasing a new one? With a few thousand down you can get a long range around 400 a month

People poop on leases but EVs are one area I think they make a ton of sense. They depreciate like a rock, nobody wants a used EV, battery degradation after 5 years, they're expensive to fix out of warranty, etc

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The cheapest thing I am seeing is $573 for rear wheel, no money down and still owe $4800 at signing. Are you saying to put $3-4k down on top of what is due at signing?

MTTANK said:

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Trinity Ag said:

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MTTANK said:

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Trinity Ag said:

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MTTANK said:

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If you search old tesla listings on cars and bids, you can see that about half or more of them have a new battery. It is a problem, but I would think the newer stuff they are selling now has been improved upon. The good news is they have a good warranty, so just don't own one out of warranty.

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This is complete nonsense.

I just looked at the first 30-40 prior sales and a grand total of 1 had a new high voltage battery installed -- and it was a 2013 replaced under warranty.

A lot of the older cars (6-8 years) have had new 12v batteries -- but that is just the accessory battery, like on your ICE car. That might create some confusion.

There ARE bad batteries out there. There are also F150 3.5 with cam phaser issues.

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We have a thread about buying a Tesla and keeping it for the long term, 250k miles, etc. if you are looking at new plaid auctions in your sample size, I can't help you. Any Tesla that is older will likely have the battery replaced, or be dinged severely price wise and in the comments if not. To say a Tesla battery ten years old with over 120k is not a concern is NONSENSE

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You are the one who said "about half of more" on cars and bids needed new batteries -- and you are questioning MY sample?

I was looking primarily at cars older than 2018 -- and there still are almost none.

You pulled that claim out of the air -- and it is flat wrong.

I have said all along that the extreme high mileage performance of Tesla batteries 100k-200k is unknowable, because there isn't a big enough sample of cars that have driven that far. People told horror stories about Hybrids, and generally their batteries have proved much more durable than expected.

Regardless, there should be minimal concern about buying a "used" Model Y, which is going to have a minimum of 6 years warranty on the battery.

If you want to be "that guy" who must drive their car to 250k for philosophical reasons, then set aside some of the gas money savings every month for the 15-20 years it will take to get a Tesla to 250k, and you will have plenty to replace the battery pack and have money left over.

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Claim I pulled was from when I was shopping for a Used S, on mainly cars and bids. My personal Experience brother. A particular S I was looking at had the original battery and was out of warranty. When I looked at the cost of replacement I was shocked. Seemed relevant for somebody shopping for a Y to own long term. I would not want to own one out of warranty. No need to tongue lash a fellow Ag or accuse them of pulling stuff out of thin air and spouting nonsense.

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OK.

The data (such that it is) says that:

Quote:

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Nissan Leaf and the Tesla Model S have the highest percentage of battery replacements with the Leaf at 4.92% and the Model S at 3.75% as they are among the oldest EVs.

The 2011 and 2012 Nissan Leaf saw 8.3% and 3.5%, respectively, rates of replacement. The 2013, 2014, and 2015 Model S saw 8.5%, 7.3%, and 3.5%, respectively, rates of replacement.

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Even the highest Model S year -- 2013 is 8.5%, which is a far cry from 50%. You would expect newer models to do better as the tech matures.

Electric Cars That Need Their Batteries Replaced Most Often (businessinsider.com)

That is one source. But still.

I get being scared off by the potential cost of an EV battery replacement in a 10-year old Tesla Model S. It is an old 100K sports sedan. The pitfalls of buying a top line Mercedes or BMW are not dissimilar.

Interesting info. I was doing some research last night and saw Elon stated the battery life should be between 300-500k miles! Obviously he can be biased and it's not scientific data, but was impressed nonetheless. Also read some of the newer models have a battery composition that should make them cheaper to replace. I would imagine with time maybe a more affordable aftermarket battery replacement will be available.

cav14 said:

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I have had my Tesla Model 3 Performance since 2018. Here are some stats on it so far:

• 115,000 miles
• 89% Battery Capacity Left
• Charging Cost - $5485

~ 70% at Home - $1983
~ 25% at Superchargers - $3503
~ 5% at hotels, other homes, AirBnBs, etc. - $0

• Maintenance Cost - $2626
~ 2 Sets of Tires - $2432

~ 12V Battery Replacement - $150

~ 2 Air Filters - $40

~ 1 Windshield Wiper Fluid - $4

~ 0 Brake Pad Replacement (yes, still on the original pads) - $0

~ and of course no oil/oil filter, no transmission fluid, no antifreeze coolant, no spark plugs, no fuel filter, no timing belts, etc. - $0

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7-cents per mile is pretty low operating cost!

Do Tesla's have higher insurance costs? IIRC they do so that has to factor into the overall costs.

I did some quick math on my wife's Honda CRV and 115,000 miles would be about $15,000 in gas, oil, tires, battery, brakes, etc.. But the insurance is pretty low on the CRV.

MTTANK said:

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Interesting info. I was doing some research last night and saw Elon stated the battery life should be between 300-500k miles! Obviously he can be biased and it's not scientific data, but was impressed nonetheless. Also read some of the newer models have a battery composition that should make them cheaper to replace. I would imagine with time maybe a more affordable aftermarket battery replacement will be available.

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I saw that too -- it will be interesting to see if it is true. Most cars wear out well before that -- even if the "engine" still runs.

I have mixed feelings about Elon. On one hand, he truly is a visionary who has transformed two markets: EVs and commercial space flight.

On the other, he talks out of his backside -- a lot. Sometimes he delivers, sometimes not. It is hard to tell if the 300-500k is data driven or wishful thinking. Probably a mixture of both.

You would expect that batteries would improve as the technology matures -- so failures on 2020-2024 cars should be significantly fewer than 2013-2015 cars. But the confounding factor is price point -- as EV makers (including Tesla) are under pressure to sell cheaper cars, where are they cutting costs?

Tech history (eg, Moore's law) says batteries should be getting cheaper, lighter, and better every year.

Late model used Teslas are a bargain, IMO. But it is nice to have the hedge of a warranty on tech that is changing at the pace of EVs.

Have you worked out the price per mile for charging?

16,986 miles
$487 spent on charging 88% at home 10% supercharger and 2% other.

Other costs 0.

I don't think insurance cost is necessarily higher.

The cost to insure my wife's 2022 Model Y is about $20 more per month than my 2017 GX, but about $50 less per month than a 2014 Highlander and roughly the same cost as a 2020 CX-5. My teenagers drive the Highlander and CX-5. Full coverage on all vehicles.

How does that compare to gas?

It my understanding there would be no math.

Saved approx $2787 vs driving my 2013 Lexus GS.

JAW3336 said:

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Saved approx $2787 vs driving my 2013 Lexus GS.

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You in California?

Quick google shows 2013 Lexus GS gets 29/34 mpg. 16,986 miles at 30 mpg is 566 gallons. Using EIA's data for all grades of retail gasoline, average price in Texas since 2021 is $3.13 ,since 2022 is $3.30, and since 2023 is $3.11.

Using $3.30 a gallon, that's $1870, less your $487 on charging, so just under $1,400 in savings.

Savings of $2,787 would be equivalent of paying $5.78 a gallon.....or you're saying the Lexus got close to half of stated range, 17 mpg.

JAW3336 said:

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I have had my Model Y Performance since may. I have driven it over 15k miles since then.

I charge at home every night to 80%. I have a 100 mile round trip commute. I get to my office with between 53 to 58% left on the battery, depending on the weather mostly. That is mostly highway driving so no regen braking, and 80 mph.

I get home with 28 to 34% left usually.

I love this car and love never having to stop for gas.

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underrated feature of ev's: being able to charge at home and never going to a gas station. just plug it in like a cell phone every night

Try using a GS 350 and not a hybrid.

Also use premium fuel and here are the state averages in that time. Also remember not all of this is highway miles.

So definitely closer, but still not sure I buy the $2,787 in savings.....

Average of the prices you gave is $3.76.

I'll say mostly non highway (even though you stated "mostly highway driving so no regen braking") so say 23 mpg average.

That brings total spend in fuel to close to your $2,787 number (just under), but savings would be that less your $480 to charge.

I'm not saying it's not more efficient or cheaper to operate, it is. I just think people drastically overstate what those savings are by overstating what fuel spend would be and understating what electricity spend is.

I mean Tesla itself does it when trying to look at the price of a car. Not sure what your 100% WAG of what my fuel savings would be has to do with the the purchase price of a car.....

And this is comparing to a 11 year old car, my F150 gets better than 23 mpg average.....

Did you also factor in maintenance costs? Sorry, I missed it if you did.

But- 16K miles should also include at least 3 oil changes, full synthetic could run between $70-100 each. If you want to get super accurate, you would have to include the wear and tear to replaceable parts too (filters, fluids, brakes, etc.).

I don't think the true cost is as simple as comparing gasoline expenses to electricity expenses- as the Tesla has drastically less maintenance costs as well.

cupofjoe04 said:

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Did you also factor in maintenance costs? Sorry, I missed it if you did.

But- 16K miles should also include at least 3 oil changes, full synthetic could run between $70-100 each. If you want to get super accurate, you would have to include the wear and tear to replaceable parts too (filters, fluids, brakes, etc.).

I don't think the true cost is as simple as comparing gasoline expenses to electricity expenses- as the Tesla has drastically less maintenance costs as well.

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The question was specifically fuel savings.

The maintenance costs have been discussed, and again overstated, well enough in this thread....

I was just using Tesla's numbers, not guessing.

Also big difference the performance of a GS 350/model Y Performance and your F150.

I never said you were guessing. If I did I apologize.

I figured you were using what Tesla stated, which is specifically why I questioned it. I did say Tesla is guessing (or purposely overstating). Just like when I go to their site and it tells me a car is $x* but the fine print shows that * is representative of a tax credit (that I don't get) and some WAG of fuel savings, which is irrelevant to the list price of a car. I can understand including the tax credit but including fuel savings is laughable.

My bad, I thought the 100% WAG part was for me. I don't read good.

Why don't you get the tax credit?

JAW3336 said:

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Why don't you get the tax credit?

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Income. Well, guess we could lease to get around that, but no plans to do so.

htxag09 said:

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JAW3336 said:

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Why don't you get the tax credit?

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Income. Well, guess we could lease to get around that, but no plans to do so.

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Ironically, the new Tesla Model 3 (and likely Y when it comes out) being ineligible for tax credits helps high income buyers -- because they have to reduce prices to compete as the market choices increase.

The 2024 Model 3 has more features, better interior, and is priced lower than the 2023.

Trinity Ag said:

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htxag09 said:

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JAW3336 said:

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Why don't you get the tax credit?

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Income. Well, guess we could lease to get around that, but no plans to do so.

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Ironically, the new Tesla Model 3 (and likely Y when it comes out) being ineligible for tax credits helps high income buyers -- because they have to reduce prices to compete as the market choices increase.

The 2024 Model 3 has more features, better interior, and is priced lower than the 2023.

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It's really not that ironic. It's pretty much basic economics/supply & demand, and one of the main reasons the credit is a sham. Get a $7500 credit, raise the price $7500.

So, as dumb as I think it is for taxpayers to subsidize $7500 for someone, who's very, very likely well off, buying a new car....it's even dumber, basically just more money going to Tesla.

I bought a 2020 about 4 months after debut.

75K miles. Battery degradation from 310 miles to 280 miles 100% charge with most occurring in the first 30K miles. Amazingly, very little degradation after 30K and the range loss curve flattened considerable.

I had to have some motor part replaced b/c of noise out of warranty that was about $250. Other than that I had zero maintenance other than wear and tear. 3 sets of tires, one 12 V battery, wiper blades. No other cost to maintain. Charged 99% at home, saved about 1/3 "fuel" cost compared to my BMW X5 which are comparable cars. I would say I saved 10K compared to my BMW.

Battery Warranty is 8 yrs, 150K miles. So even with the worse possible scenario and battery died at 150,001 miles, I would have saved 20K compared to the BMW assuming no additional costs other than wear/tear. But knowing my experience with BMWs, A big engine or some other transmission issue would have occurred soon after 100K. But even at the most optimal BMW scenario, and worse Tesla Model Y battery scenario, I would have saved 20K easily paying for a new battery.

At 75K someone totaled my car and immediately bought a 2023 Model Y LR

Currently at 15K and the improved battery/efficiency is marked. NO repairs/ wear&tear yet.

Current 100% charge is still over 310 miles and little loss compared to new. Efficiency improved at 250 watts/mile compared to 2020 at 270 watts/miles with exact driving patterns. I have very little concerns about battery degradation from improved battery tech and would not be surprised if the battery lasts 300K+ miles which is 3x longer than any BMW I have owned. The battery replacement issue is way overblown. The sticker price is high but not much more than a new BMW engine and people don't account for the huge savings.

On a full charge, I could go 280 miles real driving range. I drive about 100 miles/dy. The $$$ savings, convenience, driving/tech advantage over similar priced performance cars is a no brainer for me. In no scenario would I be net negative from a financial standpoint compared to a BMW X5, Yea, if you want a Versa then you would be saving alot of $$$ but Model Y buyers are not Versa buyers.

I would be hesitant to buy an older model high mileage Tesla b/c of old battery tech but I would have no concerns for recent 2023+ models

Since we're on the topic, I laid the MYP seats down for the first time to haul a 25 cu ft refrigerator.

OK, it was more like a 3 cu ft fridge but I was impressed with how much room the car has. Way more than my WRX wagon.

maroon barchetta said:

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By any chance does that box say to keep it vertical and not lay it on its side, like most refrigerator boxes say?

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I've always heard to just keep it unplugged for 24 hours after laying it down. It was only in the car for 15 minutes.

Went to Hawaii and rented a Ford explorer for family of 5. Bought bunch of Pinapples and barely could fit in Explorer. Concerned that I could not carry everything back in my Tesla but with all the hidden storage fit barely.

You would never think from looking at the outside, but the amount of storage is impressive.