I think people significantly overestimate the impact of vouchers.

If the argument is "private schools will just increase their tuition to match the voucher" than that means no additional kids go to private school right? If they can't afford it today, they can't afford it tomorrow

However, even if a school didn't raise their tuition, it's not like the voucher covers the tuition. A quick google search says the voucher would be roughly $6-7k. If we assume a low tuition of $15k or even $20k, that's still a serious hurdle for many to overcome. And little is "free" at private schools, meaning paying for lunch, childcare, sports, etc. makes it more expensive.

Presumably the alternative is still a free option at public schools.

So would there likely be some marginal change at existing private schools? Sure, but is it going to be this huge swarm that overwhelms everywhere? I don't think so.

average parish school is $10-12K, so a $7-8K voucher would definitely make that decision a lot easier for parents.

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but as mentioned - would a place like Our Lady want to borrow money to expand buildings and facilities, hire more staff?

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they have the space, they would absolutely love to hire more staff and get better teachers.

Diggity said:

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average parish school is $10-12K, so a $7-8K voucher would definitely make that decision a lot easier for parents.

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for the really poor schools, its significantly less as archdiocese tries to pick up the cost for as many as they can.

for example, at OLG, its about $2500 if you are below poverty line

Diggity said:

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average parish school is $10-12K, so a $7-8K voucher would definitely make that decision a lot easier for parents.

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As things stand today. And there's plenty of parochial schools in that range up until high school as well.

Based on planning I was a part of and conversations with other school boards of similar pricing, tuition would go up a couple grand and go directly to improved programs and curriculum that isn't in the budget today.

yeah, I'm talking full tuition rate. I doubt the diocese would subsidize folks using vouchers.

They would probably still offer to give assistance for the gap between the voucher and full tuition though.

What most people don't realize is the diocese and many parochial churches that formed the schools are currently subsidizing part of tuition already. They may charge $12K, but the cost of the education is more because the kids and families want to be there and agree to follow the norms and morals set forth.

If half of HISD now wants in, that get a little more difficult and most likely the tuition will raise remove that subsidy so it can be shifted to scholarships.

AgLiving06 said:

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I think people significantly overestimate the impact of vouchers.

If the argument is "private schools will just increase their tuition to match the voucher" than that means no additional kids go to private school right? If they can't afford it today, they can't afford it tomorrow

However, even if a school didn't raise their tuition, it's not like the voucher covers the tuition. A quick google search says the voucher would be roughly $6-7k. If we assume a low tuition of $15k or even $20k, that's still a serious hurdle for many to overcome. And little is "free" at private schools, meaning paying for lunch, childcare, sports, etc. makes it more expensive.

Presumably the alternative is still a free option at public schools.

So would there likely be some marginal change at existing private schools? Sure, but is it going to be this huge swarm that overwhelms everywhere? I don't think so.

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I'm pro-vouchers but I believe data shows that most people who used vouchers after they passed were mostly people who were already in private schools to before.

I don't recall talking about schools doubling.

But if a school is going to expand (and is run efficiently) it most likely would need to to be sustainable. As you mentioned 2 classes per grade is the norm.

3 classes per grade doesn't work nearly as well for lots of reasons. So the goal would need to be 4 classes per grade (double) or stand pat and increase tuition and programs.

Diggity said:

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average parish school is $10-12K, so a $7-8K voucher would definitely make that decision a lot easier for parents.

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We are more or less aligned. Maybe it's a couple thousand cheaper than my swag but it's still several thousand more expensive and unless the parish is a top private school the demand for it isn't going to materially change. It's going to be congregants or those who want a specific kind of religious education.

So it may sure up the parishes finances but I don't see this like doubling or tripling headcount.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I think people significantly overestimate the impact of vouchers.

If the argument is "private schools will just increase their tuition to match the voucher" than that means no additional kids go to private school right? If they can't afford it today, they can't afford it tomorrow

However, even if a school didn't raise their tuition, it's not like the voucher covers the tuition. A quick google search says the voucher would be roughly $6-7k. If we assume a low tuition of $15k or even $20k, that's still a serious hurdle for many to overcome. And little is "free" at private schools, meaning paying for lunch, childcare, sports, etc. makes it more expensive.

Presumably the alternative is still a free option at public schools.

So would there likely be some marginal change at existing private schools? Sure, but is it going to be this huge swarm that overwhelms everywhere? I don't think so.

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I'm pro-vouchers but I believe data shows that most people who used vouchers after they passed were mostly people who were already in private schools to before.

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This is what I think as well. It mostly will benefit those who are already in private but also paying public tuition

not saying you did, but to move the needle, most schools would need to (at least) double in size.

Just wondering how many PK-8 schools would even have serious interest in that (assuming they're at/near capacity today).

Diggity said:

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not saying you did, but to move the needle, most schools would need to (at least) double in size.

Just wondering how many PK-8 schools would even have serious interest in that (assuming they're at/near capacity today).

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My experience is schools are either growing and expanding or shrinking. No such thing as status quo.

Private schools are a lot like D1 sports. You're either keeping up with the Jones' in facilities or no longer interesting. Prestige and bragging rights play into parent's decisions even at the cheaper schools.

Some can keep improving facilities while holding the same number of students if they have a big enough endowment. Most can't without raising prices significantly because they're adding cost and maintenance and staff to do so.

AgLA06 said:

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I don't recall talking about schools doubling.

But if a school is going to expand (and is run efficiently) it most likely would need to to be sustainable. As you mentioned 2 classes per grade is the norm.

3 classes per grade doesn't work for lots of reasons. So the goal would need to be 4 classes per grade (double) or stand pat and increase tuition and programs.

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I'm curious about this as I've never heard it before. What is the difference between 2 and 3 that causes issues?

To be honest more than I want to type out. From inefficiencies in none core staff and facilities to inability to continue to mix kids as they move up grades to teacher curriculum planning and daily period scheduling.

It just isn't efficient or easy based on how schools are set up, built, and managed.

AgLA06 said:

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Diggity said:

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not saying you did, but to move the needle, most schools would need to (at least) double in size.

Just wondering how many PK-8 schools would even have serious interest in that (assuming they're at/near capacity today).

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My experience is schools are either growing and expanding or shrinking. No such thing as status quo.

Private schools are a lot like D1 sports. You're either keeping up with the Jones' in facilities or no longer interesting. Prestige and bragging rights play into parent's decisions even at the cheaper schools.

Some can keep improving facilities while holding the same number of students if they have a big enough endowment. Most can't without raising prices significantly because they're adding cost and maintenance and staff to do so.

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This may be applicable to the private schools in the academic arms race (thinking St. Johns, Kinkaid, Strake), but I'm not sure how much this applies to the more parochial schools.

I see different drivers once you get outside the "top tier" private schools...and after seeing the disasters at the ivy's this year, I'm not sure the feeder private schools are any better...

AgLA06 said:

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chico said:

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TexAgs1992 said:

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schmellba99 said:

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herb96 said:

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wessimo said:

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GTFO.gif

Unbelievable. This POS needs to go. How could they put someone with such an obvious conflict of interest in this job?

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Abbot is hell bent on killing the public school system.

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To be fair, the public school system needs to be killed and rebuilt at this point.

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SCHOOL. CHOICE. EOT

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it exists within HISD, you can apply to any school district-wide. Many kids don't go to their zoned schools. You don't always get accepted since there are max enrollments, but you'll find some schools have kids from all over.

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Which is highly inefficient and costing HISD much more to run a district. All the while ensuring only a handful of schools have the best teachers, students, and opportunity to succeed.

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No, it doesn't.

Because HISD is not responsible for providing a means for kids out of district to get to the school they want to go to - that's one of the caveats of going to a school outside of your zoned area - you as the parent/student are responsible for getting the kid to the school.

The kid going to School B instead of School A has absolutely zero effect on HISD, other than one school is preferred over another, and that is, in your world, bad because it hurts the feelings of the school that the parents don't want their child attending.

Does anybody know whether private schools would be forced to accept vouchers or could they decline them? I have never seen this data point before.

I would suspect that many (most?) private school swill decline them if they can because there will absolutely be strings attached to acceptance of those state dollars and students. Most private schools operate effectively specifically because they are not overwhelmed by state mandates and oversight.

Conversely I can envision grifters starting private or charter schools with the specific intent of accepting vouchers but providing very little in the way of improved education for those students, and these could be even worse than HISD.

Tyrannosaurus Ross said:

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Does anybody know whether private schools would be forced to accept vouchers or could they decline them? I have never seen this data point before.

I would suspect that many (most?) private school swill decline them if they can because there will absolutely be strings attached to acceptance of those state dollars and students. Most private schools operate effectively specifically because they are not overwhelmed by state mandates and oversight.

Conversely I can envision grifters starting private or charter schools with the specific intent of accepting vouchers but providing very little in the way of improved education for those students, and these could be even worse than HISD.

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This came up at my kids school.

If the voucher is "from the state" most parochial schools wouldn't accept them.

However, the Arizona model (if I remember right) has the voucher being given to the student/family and there aren't strings attached to it by the state.

If this is the model, it's good for private schools.

AgLiving06 said:

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AgLA06 said:

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Diggity said:

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not saying you did, but to move the needle, most schools would need to (at least) double in size.

Just wondering how many PK-8 schools would even have serious interest in that (assuming they're at/near capacity today).

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My experience is schools are either growing and expanding or shrinking. No such thing as status quo.

Private schools are a lot like D1 sports. You're either keeping up with the Jones' in facilities or no longer interesting. Prestige and bragging rights play into parent's decisions even at the cheaper schools.

Some can keep improving facilities while holding the same number of students if they have a big enough endowment. Most can't without raising prices significantly because they're adding cost and maintenance and staff to do so.

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This may be applicable to the private schools in the academic arms race (thinking St. Johns, Kinkaid, Strake), but I'm not sure how much this applies to the more parochial schools.

I see different drivers once you get outside the "top tier" private schools...and after seeing the disasters at the ivy's this year, I'm not sure the feeder private schools are any better...

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As I said, I'm speaking to below teir 1 and independent schools. That's my experience leading a parochial school and was echoed by our competition and partner schools in town.

Tier 1 is a whole different level.

AgLA06 said:

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To be honest more than I want to type out. From inefficiencies in none core staff and facilities to inability to continue to mix kids as they move up grades to teacher curriculum planning and daily period scheduling.

It just isn't efficient or easy based on how schools are set up, built, and managed.

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Is there any evidence for this you can point me towards? This is not how our current school is set up so I'd like to be a little better informed on the matter. For the record we love our kids school.

AgLiving06 said:

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Tyrannosaurus Ross said:

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Does anybody know whether private schools would be forced to accept vouchers or could they decline them? I have never seen this data point before.

I would suspect that many (most?) private school swill decline them if they can because there will absolutely be strings attached to acceptance of those state dollars and students. Most private schools operate effectively specifically because they are not overwhelmed by state mandates and oversight.

Conversely I can envision grifters starting private or charter schools with the specific intent of accepting vouchers but providing very little in the way of improved education for those students, and these could be even worse than HISD.

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This came up at my kids school.

If the voucher is "from the state" most parochial schools wouldn't accept them.

However, the Arizona model (if I remember right) has the voucher being given to the student/family and there aren't strings attached to it by the state.

If this is the model, it's good for private schools.

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This is very valid. No parochial school wants to give leverage to the state.

We'll see how many stand firm if their competition takes advantage of it. Hard to watch them gain an advantage and grow for risk that could happen.

Sea Speed said:

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AgLA06 said:

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To be honest more than I want to type out. From inefficiencies in none core staff and facilities to inability to continue to mix kids as they move up grades to teacher curriculum planning and daily period scheduling.

It just isn't efficient or easy based on how schools are set up, built, and managed.

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Is there any evidence for this you can point me towards? This is not how our current school is set up so I'd like to be a little better informed on the matter. For the record we love our kids school.

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I'm not saying you can't make it work. I'm just saying it complicated and adds expense and frustration compared to even number of classes. I know a couple of schools that tried to push to three classes without a plan to go to four and all of them have gone back to 2.

It's cliche, but like other professions there is a lot to managing a well run school than just kids and teachers. I had no idea about most of it until I served on a school board for 4 years.

94chem said:

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Humble ISD just fired their Super. Got tired of dealing with her live-in-boyfriend-turned-husband and the millions they were spending on paying his legal bills for sexual harassment as HISD athletic director. The two of them were pulling in $800K/year for sitting on the dais at graduations and modeling moral turpitude. I'm sure their golden parachutes will arrive in my mailbox at tax time.

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What are all the ins & outs here.

I thought F*gan (stupid TA filters) had done a pretty good job. Especially navigating the BS surrounding covid.

AgLiving06 said:

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This is what I don't understand.

I can appreciate using the NES model at the underperforming schools...but it's not clear to me what's going on at the top performing schools. Arguably they should be left alone just because resources shouldn't need to be focused on the high performing schools right now.

So if he's screwing with those, I'd hope he's really justifying why we are spending any time on those?

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The NES model may have a place in underperforming schools and could potentially benefit the students. Time will tell. However, the quality certified teachers would be much better off going somewhere else due to a variety of reasons. Some include:

• Teachers don't actually teach anything. They are basically given lessons created by HISD to read word for word and are required to get through a minimum number of slides/lessons per day regardless of whether the students are actually grasping the knowledge or not.
• Micromanagement. Teachers aren't allowed to think for themselves and are constantly being observed. I hear it they are observed for like 1 subject / week, so for Elementary teachers that teach multiple subjects, they are being observed and evaluated pretty much every day. They receive poor ratings if they try to reinforce a concept by saying something that isn't exactly dictated in the lesson plan they've been given.
• Pay is based on subject taught and has no modification factor for experience. This equals to a pay increase for young inexperienced teachers, but decrease in pay for experienced teachers. This leads to a campus full of young staff with no one to mentor them, but that doesn't really matter due to the previous points.

Again, time will tell if the NES model works and perhaps this "teaching" style is better absorbed by the communities it's attempting to serve. Ultimately, underperformance at schools has less to do with the quality of the educators and is more to do with socioeconomics, demographics, and parental involvement.
Also, Miles is absolutely screwing with the high performing schools in some way. It was taken down after a few days, but a list of principals that were "put on notice" was leaked to the Chronicle earlier this year. Principals from very high performing schools, including CVHS, HSPVA, DeBakey and other GT or magnet schools were on that list. Why would they be on that list if they are so high performing? One might assume it's because they aren't "falling in line".

AgLA06 said:

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Sea Speed said:

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AgLA06 said:

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To be honest more than I want to type out. From inefficiencies in none core staff and facilities to inability to continue to mix kids as they move up grades to teacher curriculum planning and daily period scheduling.

It just isn't efficient or easy based on how schools are set up, built, and managed.

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Is there any evidence for this you can point me towards? This is not how our current school is set up so I'd like to be a little better informed on the matter. For the record we love our kids school.

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I'm not saying you can't make it work. I'm just saying it complicated and adds expense and frustration compared to even number of classes. I know a couple of schools that tried to push to three classes without a plan to go to four and all of them have gone back to 2.

It's cliche, but like other professions there is a lot to managing a well run school than just kids and teachers. I had no idea about most of it until I served on a school board for 4 years.

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I'm not doubting you I was just hoping there was some info or articles out there with info on it.

TexAg2001 said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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This is what I don't understand.

I can appreciate using the NES model at the underperforming schools...but it's not clear to me what's going on at the top performing schools. Arguably they should be left alone just because resources shouldn't need to be focused on the high performing schools right now.

So if he's screwing with those, I'd hope he's really justifying why we are spending any time on those?

---

The NES model may have a place in underperforming schools and could potentially benefit the students. Time will tell. However, the quality certified teachers would be much better off going somewhere else due to a variety of reasons. Some include:

• Teachers don't actually teach anything. They are basically given lessons created by HISD to read word for word and are required to get through a minimum number of slides/lessons per day regardless of whether the students are actually grasping the knowledge or not.
• Micromanagement. Teachers aren't allowed to think for themselves and are constantly being observed. I hear it they are observed for like 1 subject / week, so for Elementary teachers that teach multiple subjects, they are being observed and evaluated pretty much every day. They receive poor ratings if they try to reinforce a concept by saying something that isn't exactly dictated in the lesson plan they've been given.
• Pay is based on subject taught and has no modification factor for experience. This equals to a pay increase for young inexperienced teachers, but decrease in pay for experienced teachers. This leads to a campus full of young staff with no one to mentor them, but that doesn't really matter due to the previous points.

Again, time will tell if the NES model works and perhaps this "teaching" style is better absorbed by the communities it's attempting to serve. Ultimately, underperformance at schools has less to do with the quality of the educators and is more to do with socioeconomics, demographics, and parental involvement.
Also, Miles is absolutely screwing with the high performing schools in some way. It was taken down after a few days, but a list of principals that were "put on notice" was leaked to the Chronicle earlier this year. Principals from very high performing schools, including CVHS, HSPVA, DeBakey and other GT or magnet schools were on that list. Why would they be on that list if they are so high performing? One might assume it's because they aren't "falling in line".

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You are correct.

Unfortunately, when there are as many underperforming teachers as good, you can't afford to let them adlib curriculum planning and daily teaching without it negatively impacting the kids. And it definitely doesn't allow for improvement. It's easy to let the good teacher shine if you only have a couple bad apples. That isn't the situation HISD is in. It's literally known as the place to go for a larger check and less work and oversight if you can handle the culture.

Something as simple as teacher review and standards process before now would probably had avoided that. Teacher's unit fought it tooth and nail to avoid having teachers fired that pay into their system. The teachers union is only there to protect bad teachers at this point at the expense of the students.

TarponChaser said:

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94chem said:

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Humble ISD just fired their Super. Got tired of dealing with her live-in-boyfriend-turned-husband and the millions they were spending on paying his legal bills for sexual harassment as HISD athletic director. The two of them were pulling in $800K/year for sitting on the dais at graduations and modeling moral turpitude. I'm sure their golden parachutes will arrive in my mailbox at tax time.

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What are all the ins & outs here.

I thought F*gan (stupid TA filters) had done a pretty good job. Especially navigating the BS surrounding covid.

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That is true, but her husband is in a mess over creating a mess in the athletics department with chronic boorish behavior. Meanwhile, and my timeline may be off slightly, she has seen the writing on the wall, and has been dancing with other school districts so she can bail on Humble (and maybe husband #2) before it hits the fan. Apparently the trustees have had enough and told her it's easier to look for a new job when you're not burdened by your current one.