On the ITC website it looks like they may be owned by Mitsui & Co USA. If negligence is proven, there may be deep pockets the lawyers can pick for many years. Just like the BP oil spill. Many businesses will suffer financially because of this, small and large.Seabreeze said:
That place will be under different ownership in a yrs time after they settle, fire the management and declare Bankruptcy. Then the incompetence can continue like many of the chemical and refineries do on a daily basis around America. Being in inspections and engineering for 24+ years working and based at places its staggering the amount of deferrals of equipment inspections, PM's and repairs that are made in order to just get by. Just Rolling the dice is all they do. ITC just got caught with their pants down. This should be a wake up call like BP in 2005. But the dice tell the future.
ITC Deer Park
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Last: 1 yr ago by suburban cowboy
That is why you need to read the forms that are set in front of you. This is a pretty standard thing.
Here's my issue with all this - including all groups. It's challenging to have any level of trust in anyone.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Deer-Park-company-battling-fire-accused-of-13702979.php?utm_campaign=chron&utm_source=article&utm_medium=https%3A%2F%2Fm.chron.com%2Fnews%2Fhouston-texas%2Fhouston%2Farticle%2FHouston-Ship-Channel-still-closed-as-9-toxins-13711762.php
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Deer-Park-company-battling-fire-accused-of-13702979.php?utm_campaign=chron&utm_source=article&utm_medium=https%3A%2F%2Fm.chron.com%2Fnews%2Fhouston-texas%2Fhouston%2Farticle%2FHouston-Ship-Channel-still-closed-as-9-toxins-13711762.php
The solution to pollution is dilutionSnowboardAg said:
Here's my issue with all this - including all groups. It's challenging to have any level of trust in anyone.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Deer-Park-company-battling-fire-accused-of-13702979.php?utm_campaign=chron&utm_source=article&utm_medium=https%3A%2F%2Fm.chron.com%2Fnews%2Fhouston-texas%2Fhouston%2Farticle%2FHouston-Ship-Channel-still-closed-as-9-toxins-13711762.php
The Aggie number specified has already been linked with another TexAgs account.
USCG report just released.
Everything North of Laporte (Fred Hartman Bridge) in the HSC is closed down.
Unsafe levels of Benzene and other chemicals.
Containment boom in place in old river, carpenters bayou, etc.
Most tow companies have decrewed vessels and barges until safer levels are obtained.
Contamination of equipment and clean up will be an issue in coming days.
The scuttlebutt around the industry is Tues. normal operations and recrew.
I bet the Holiday Inn in Channelview looks like a damn frat house.. lol
Everything North of Laporte (Fred Hartman Bridge) in the HSC is closed down.
Unsafe levels of Benzene and other chemicals.
Containment boom in place in old river, carpenters bayou, etc.
Most tow companies have decrewed vessels and barges until safer levels are obtained.
Contamination of equipment and clean up will be an issue in coming days.
The scuttlebutt around the industry is Tues. normal operations and recrew.
I bet the Holiday Inn in Channelview looks like a damn frat house.. lol
padreislandagfan said:
I bet the Holiday Inn in Channelview looks like a damn frat house.. lol
Is this the Kirby House?
Lol i can only imagine wtf that looks like right now.
It is the place most all towboaters stay when they come to town. It's central location to Ops. is the draw, not quality of the stay.bigjag19 said:padreislandagfan said:
I bet the Holiday Inn in Channelview looks like a damn frat house.. lol
Is this the Kirby House?
padreislandagfan said:It is the place most all towboaters stay when they come to town. It's central location to Ops. is the draw, not quality of the stay.bigjag19 said:padreislandagfan said:
I bet the Holiday Inn in Channelview looks like a damn frat house.. lol
Is this the Kirby House?
I was making an animal house joke.
Updtae on incident status from ITC as of this evening.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/itcresponse/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/24195553/ITC-Media-Release-Statement-22.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/itcresponse/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/24195553/ITC-Media-Release-Statement-22.pdf
Why do we give a **** what the mayor or county judge or she-jack has to say about any of this **** in the first place?
Iv'e been to ITC probably a dozen times over the years. ITC is a big outfit. They got people there that have been doing this **** a real long time. That said, the people at ITC are some of the best engineers and incident management people in the world. If not them ... who is?
If I was this pre-teen county judge, Id just turn the mic over to Ray-Ray from ITC who's been an engineer and safety management guy there for 40 years. Let him do his thing.
The situation just gets muddled and people are ill informed when the politicians get up in the mix.
But WAIT SMR! How do we trust what ITC says?
Well them folks want to get this **** sorted out too. Their house is probably closer to ITC than yours is. Their kids are going to Channelview or Pasadena HS or wherever.
Yeah SMR, but all ITC cares about is saving money!
Like theres a boardroom full of Mr. Burns clones sitting in a high-rise somewhere trying to figure out some way to penny-pinch.
Not really. Been in this business a long time and dealt with more major incidents than I can remember.
Sure the top guys would rather the company not get bankrupted, but as another poster pointed out, they got to be well insured for this type of deal and the next level of excess will kick in. People gonna get claims paid and the **** is gonna get cleaned up and sorted out in due course.
The reality is that people at ITC and the firefighters, CG, TEC are all doing what they are supposed to be doing to get the problem solved.
The drama surrounding all of this is pretty much the same as the 'orange man bad' mentality, with a twist of benzine for flavor.
Iv'e been to ITC probably a dozen times over the years. ITC is a big outfit. They got people there that have been doing this **** a real long time. That said, the people at ITC are some of the best engineers and incident management people in the world. If not them ... who is?
If I was this pre-teen county judge, Id just turn the mic over to Ray-Ray from ITC who's been an engineer and safety management guy there for 40 years. Let him do his thing.
The situation just gets muddled and people are ill informed when the politicians get up in the mix.
But WAIT SMR! How do we trust what ITC says?
Well them folks want to get this **** sorted out too. Their house is probably closer to ITC than yours is. Their kids are going to Channelview or Pasadena HS or wherever.
Yeah SMR, but all ITC cares about is saving money!
Like theres a boardroom full of Mr. Burns clones sitting in a high-rise somewhere trying to figure out some way to penny-pinch.
Not really. Been in this business a long time and dealt with more major incidents than I can remember.
Sure the top guys would rather the company not get bankrupted, but as another poster pointed out, they got to be well insured for this type of deal and the next level of excess will kick in. People gonna get claims paid and the **** is gonna get cleaned up and sorted out in due course.
The reality is that people at ITC and the firefighters, CG, TEC are all doing what they are supposed to be doing to get the problem solved.
The drama surrounding all of this is pretty much the same as the 'orange man bad' mentality, with a twist of benzine for flavor.
Take some time to calm down and do less bath salts
Probably.
Tell Lina I said hey, when you see her.
Tell Lina I said hey, when you see her.
He is 100% right on the mayor and county-judge issue.
Those mouth pieces need to stay out of this and keep their traps shut.
Those mouth pieces need to stay out of this and keep their traps shut.
the new judge is a moron, but to be fair probably nobody would care if it were emmett speaking
I've always looked for those who's job it is to fix the thing to speak, not the elected/appointed idiot who has no idea.OnlyForNow said:
He is 100% right on the mayor and county-judge issue.
Those mouth pieces need to stay out of this and keep their traps shut.
My point previously was as long as the first responders are getting what they need, who cares if the mayor or county judge is there to look at it or speak. The only thing they need to do is communicate via other means what the expert says.
~egon
Well, some people take what they say as gospel and it can really sour the well when people who don't have any busy speaking on those items gets up and starts beating that drum.
But I agree with you.
But I agree with you.
I know a lot of you posting on here are in the industry, so you may have a better handle on what's going on than the average person, but I think the public in general is pretty much past trusting straight up the information provided by companies who have millions of dollars riding on a situation. I agree that our elected officials don't know crap, but that's why you see people, even on this thread, asking for some sort of third-party information.Dr. Doctor said:I've always looked for those who's job it is to fix the thing to speak, not the elected/appointed idiot who has no idea.OnlyForNow said:
He is 100% right on the mayor and county-judge issue.
Those mouth pieces need to stay out of this and keep their traps shut.
My point previously was as long as the first responders are getting what they need, who cares if the mayor or county judge is there to look at it or speak. The only thing they need to do is communicate via other means what the expert says.
~egon
Bear in mind that the company with millions of dollars at stake is staffed by individuals that DO have a personal liability stake in complying with environmental regulations. TCEQ/EPA have the authority to investigate and prosecute individuals, not just the company.
This link details major criminal prosecutions of the EPA from 2017. Notice that individuals are called out here as well as companies.
https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/2017-major-criminal-cases
So while there are millions of dollars at stake (and this event has likely already cost ITC millions with still more to come), most reasonable people aren't willing to risk going to jail to not do the best they can to follow the rules and make things right. Nobody is perfect and things happen that can't be controlled, but Willful violation is bad territory to find yourself in.
Is ITC perfect? Probably far from it. Do they have areas to improve? Everyone does, and I'm sure we will find out about ITC's now that the CSB is involved. Are they flat out lying to save their own skins? Maybe, but they will get crucified if they are and get caught which goes back to my original point; so I lean towards probably not (especially since the EPA is part of the incident response unified command structure).
This link details major criminal prosecutions of the EPA from 2017. Notice that individuals are called out here as well as companies.
https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/2017-major-criminal-cases
So while there are millions of dollars at stake (and this event has likely already cost ITC millions with still more to come), most reasonable people aren't willing to risk going to jail to not do the best they can to follow the rules and make things right. Nobody is perfect and things happen that can't be controlled, but Willful violation is bad territory to find yourself in.
Is ITC perfect? Probably far from it. Do they have areas to improve? Everyone does, and I'm sure we will find out about ITC's now that the CSB is involved. Are they flat out lying to save their own skins? Maybe, but they will get crucified if they are and get caught which goes back to my original point; so I lean towards probably not (especially since the EPA is part of the incident response unified command structure).
You make a solid point.
Higher ups can be; and are being held personally liable nowadays.
Everybody loves to do a good job, but most folks aint gonna risk going to jail trying to cover for their employers ass.
Hell, youd have low level employees in the know reporting them for whistleblower money. That happens too, more than you think.
Higher ups can be; and are being held personally liable nowadays.
Everybody loves to do a good job, but most folks aint gonna risk going to jail trying to cover for their employers ass.
Hell, youd have low level employees in the know reporting them for whistleblower money. That happens too, more than you think.
And whats sad is that most of the upper managemrnt dont know how bad the facilities they buy are. I do work in plants and terminals. How many are still using infrestructure built pre-WW2? Plenty.
The regulatory environment hasnt been conducive to constructing new and/or upgraded units and tank farms that comply with modern codes and requirements.
What's worse is so few of these facilities have qualified personnel on site to know that sad state of their assets.
For those that work for any of the O&G plants or refineries, how many have an experienced civil/structural on site?
I remember doing a walkthrough an existing unit out in Sweeny. There were piperacks I wouldn't walk under. The site guys have no clue and management just waits for an incident or "act of God" like a hurricane to do its damage before upgrading. They'll continue to run the assets as-is with maybe minor updates that do little to nothing to address the larger inevitable issues. They just wait for them to happen and then respond.
Likewise, we were in the process of scoping out an electricl infrestructure upgrade at a facility when it was purchased by another company. The new company put all projects on hold as it tried to figure out just how poor of a facility it was. Tells me that no one qualified even laid eyes on the asset before they purchased it. Probably could have had new grads walk the plant and realize there were issues everywhere.
To me the question is, is this the most appropiate course of action to take? And it may be. Building new and/or upgrading to meet current regulations is costly. The longer they delay that capital expense, the better the return on investment in the short term.
The regulatory environment hasnt been conducive to constructing new and/or upgraded units and tank farms that comply with modern codes and requirements.
What's worse is so few of these facilities have qualified personnel on site to know that sad state of their assets.
For those that work for any of the O&G plants or refineries, how many have an experienced civil/structural on site?
I remember doing a walkthrough an existing unit out in Sweeny. There were piperacks I wouldn't walk under. The site guys have no clue and management just waits for an incident or "act of God" like a hurricane to do its damage before upgrading. They'll continue to run the assets as-is with maybe minor updates that do little to nothing to address the larger inevitable issues. They just wait for them to happen and then respond.
Likewise, we were in the process of scoping out an electricl infrestructure upgrade at a facility when it was purchased by another company. The new company put all projects on hold as it tried to figure out just how poor of a facility it was. Tells me that no one qualified even laid eyes on the asset before they purchased it. Probably could have had new grads walk the plant and realize there were issues everywhere.
To me the question is, is this the most appropiate course of action to take? And it may be. Building new and/or upgrading to meet current regulations is costly. The longer they delay that capital expense, the better the return on investment in the short term.
LOL No Comment, but I just got reminded that Chevron bought PRSI when I got a bid to do a project there today
The modernization and clean up of that crap hole by big oil should awesome to watch
The modernization and clean up of that crap hole by big oil should awesome to watch
The Aggie number specified has already been linked with another TexAgs account.
Part of the problem is that the environmental regulations discourage major upgrades to facilities by allowing facilities to stay grandfathered under older standards as long as they don't make any large changes to their systems and processes. A lot of times doing the kinds of upgrades that would greatly enhance safety comes with a huge price tag by triggering much stricter environmental control technology requirements as well.
IMO you are exactly right with this analysis.txags92 said:
Part of the problem is that the environmental regulations discourage major upgrades to facilities by allowing facilities to stay grandfathered under older standards as long as they don't make any large changes to their systems and processes. A lot of times doing the kinds of upgrades that would greatly enhance safety comes with a huge price tag by triggering much stricter environmental control technology requirements as well.
Overreaching and excessive government regulation makes upgrades in safety and design not economically viable.
Grandfathered systems stay in place for that reason.
***ashima is a prime example. Running a 1950s designed nuke plant simply because it was not politically expedient to build a modern facility ... in one of the most geologically volatile regions of the planet.
It is what it is. Businesses have no moral obligation to upgrade equipment until it becomes economically viable to do so. Folks want their dividends and for that stock price to go up. Loosing money does not make that happen.
In short, **** is the way it is, simply because that the way its got to be.
Quote:
Likewise, we were in the process of scoping out an electricl infrestructure upgrade at a facility when it was purchased by another company. The new company put all projects on hold as it tried to figure out just how poor of a facility it was. Tells me that no one qualified even laid eyes on the asset before they purchased it. Probably could have had new grads walk the plant and realize there were issues everywhere.
in a couple of instances i've seen, it was known exactly what we were buying beforehand although in one case it was next to impossible to inspect everything when you are talking about acquiring hundreds of thousands of acres. short of there being an undisclosed toxic dump at the site, basically everything can be rationalized as long as the economics work out. then the cycle of debate begins again with what is worth spending money to upgrade.
As was quickly mentioned, grandfathering is a feature that is all too often used in specifications and regulation to get it passed. It eliminates existing user complaints and for the government allows regulators to minimize the stated economic impact of the regulation.
Grandfathering alone is a good plan for products with a defined life span, but not for capital assets. The better option for those is a date of compliance requirement. That can be 10 years or so. I don't love government interference but I also have seen plenty of times where management asks "What is the minimum required to comply with code?" as opposed to "What is the right thing to do?". Not in writing necessarily.
Grandfathering alone is a good plan for products with a defined life span, but not for capital assets. The better option for those is a date of compliance requirement. That can be 10 years or so. I don't love government interference but I also have seen plenty of times where management asks "What is the minimum required to comply with code?" as opposed to "What is the right thing to do?". Not in writing necessarily.
Harris County discussing lawsuits against ITC.
On court now
On court now
aTm '99
Bet there were lot lizzards galoreStat Monitor Repairman said:
Lol i can only imagine wtf that looks like right now.
I think grandfathering has its place...to ease the immediate impact of a new requirement for instance. But the kind of open-ended grandfathering that has a lot of our petrochemical infrastructure stuck with 1960s and 70s era technology is bad for everybody involved. The reality is that without the environmental rules in place, the facilities would have already upgraded for safety and process efficiency reasons...but they are not upgrading because of the new environmental requirements that would kick in. However, staying with the old technology is worse for the environment too. So it isn't like we are saving the environment at the expense of safety or efficiency...and it isn't that we are prizing efficiency and safety over the environment...our current system is worse for both sides. We need to have a programmed end to the grandfathering periods that allow plants time to make the capital improvements over a reasonable timeframe, but doesn't incentivize them to stick with older, less safe, and less efficient equipment in perpetuity.
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AG
I still think it is hilarious that every hood rat in Deer Park is claiming they cant breath, their chest is tight, nose running, throat sore and have a headache because of this and not the pollen count being high.
Or the amount of meth consumed daily.
Quote:
We need to have a programmed end to the grandfathering periods that allow plants time to make the capital improvements over a reasonable timeframe, but doesn't incentivize them to stick with older, less safe, and less efficient equipment in perpetuity.
Agreed.
Also, though, the economics around upgrades needs to change.
Expense versus Capital in accounting is another reason why things don't get changed. The accounting rules make it beneficial to perform capital projects, but anything classified as maintenance is a straight loss to the balance sheet, IIRC. Change the accounting rules to allow depreciation or some type of tax offset, coupled with changed in environmental regulations, and improvements would likely be made before something disastrous happens.
And, companies allocate a specified amount of expense money to plants each year. This money is watched over like it is gold. Any money that can be saved helps boost bonuses for certain people because the operating margin at year's end is better. I've seen these battles since I started in Project Engineering.
pretty much the same framework that should be implemented for gov't entitlement programs.Quote:
We need to have a programmed end to the grandfathering periods that allow plants time to make the capital improvements over a reasonable timeframe, but doesn't incentivize them to stick with older, less safe, and less efficient equipment in perpetuity.
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