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76,284 Views | 513 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by suburban cowboy
schmellba99
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txags92 said:

nonameag99 said:

not sure if you are ********** (**********=pro union) or non union


Absolutely anti-union. I had to work with those mother f ers in Michigan for almost 2 years, and you couldn't pay me to hire a union crew. My comments about contractors relative to DuPont wasn't to insinuate that contractors are somehow bad to have on the plant. It is just that for DuPont, contractors were a way to 1) reduced "fixed costs" by transitioning work to a contractor who is considered a "flexible cost", even though the contractor is there doing the same job for the same number of hours as the employee was and the plant can't be safely operated without them; and 2) a way for them to put the risky jobs outside of the "employee" pool to lower the chance that they won't get their safety incentive bonus.
That is pretty universal across the entire industry, has been since really the advent of OSHA and the implementation of federal safety statues and standards.

It mostly started due to labor and pension costs if you want to be honest about it. Why pay a company man $20 an hour plus insurance plus burden plus pension - which comes out to $40 an hour, when you can pay a contractor a negotiated rate of $25 or $30 an hour? The other "benefit" is that contractors are expendable - they have a poor safety performance, they get booted from the plant. Insurance rates are adjusted to reflect the Owner pushing safety and having good EMR's on internal personnel and contract personnel.

I grew up in the LJ/Freeport area - Dow was the king employer there for years. I can remember when almost everybody was a Dow employee - electricians, welders, operators, engineers, etc. - all took home Dow paychecks and the perks that went with it. Back in the 80's when the economy really started flattening out and going the wrong direction, the accountants pushed a lot of the lower level roles onto contractors and took them off the Dow payroll, it's been that way since then. Most plants now even farm out a lot of their technical or engineering and don't have nearly the number of in-house unit or block management. More and more it is being pushed to contracting because it saves cost - and helps on the safety front like you said.
Ferris Wheel Allstar
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Boo Weekley said:

Well it looks much worse this morning coming in from the west side, but maybe that is due to wind changes? Any updates?

Is "ah, f*** it, let's just let em burn and see what happens, don't want to cause a scare anyoone or spend too much money" really a legit disaster response strategy in this industry?
Chemical tank fire intensifies overnight after drop in water pressure

Quote:

DEER PARK, Texas There are now eight tanks burning, two of them empty, as we head into Day 3 of the fire at Intercontinental Terminals Company in the Deer Park and La Porte area.

On Monday, the company said they anticipated the fire being out in two days, although it's not clear if that will still be the case after an overnight setback.
tlh3842
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So true. I haven't spent a ton of time in Houston area facilities, but have been in several Beaumont/Poet Arthur ones. After a little amount of time, it's crazy how few of the people actually run the day to day physical activities are company men. Damn near every person you see outside of the main office or control rooms are contractors. Pretty crazy but I get it from the money perspective.
CDUB98
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txags92 said:

My experience is that they almost all talk the talk very well...but there are a lot for whom the talk gets real quiet when it comes time to pay for walking the walk.
tlh3842
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On the bus so can't get a picture, but beautiful cloud of smoke cutting across I10 on the way into downtowns from the west side.
The Milkman
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tlh3842 said:

On the bus so can't get a picture, but beautiful cloud of smoke cutting across I10 on the way into downtowns from the west side.
Dr. Doctor
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I've worked for them 2 times and this is true.

Working at Nylon plant, before (mid-90's), everyone was DuPont. After that, level 1,1B, 2 and 2B were contract (guys/gals who pulled tubes of nylon string off the machines and packed them up; people who cleaned the place and people who warehoused Nylon) and only machine operators were company people.

At another polymer plant, the contractor/workers were 50/50. Maintenance was were it mostly happened; operators were company men, but maintenance and some long lead projects were contract. Granted, they all worked at the plant for 40+ years, but they had been 7+ different company employees (Fluor, Jacobs, B&R, Merridian, etc.)

Luckily though, the sign for injuries at the last site was 2500+ days for contractors and (until someone slipped off a ledge and twisted their ankle) 1500+ for DuPont employees.

~egon
CDUB98
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Funny thing about when contractors get kicked out.

Typically, only the management changes. All the day-to-day workers remain the same. They just change the sticker on their hard hat and continue the previous unsafe practices.
CDUB98
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Quote:

Granted, they all worked at the plant for 40+ years, but they had been 7+ different company employees (Fluor, Jacobs, B&R, Merridian, etc.)


HA!

You posted it while I was typing. You win the innerwebs today.
El Duke
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schmellba99
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CDUB98 said:

Funny thing about when contractors get kicked out.

Typically, only the management changes. All the day-to-day workers remain the same. They just change the sticker on their hard hat and continue the previous unsafe practices.
On maintenance, that is pretty true - at least 75% remain at the site and just get a different company paycheck. On capital projects or special projects, not so much. Well, at least my experience - which admittedly I left the petrochem industry 15 years ago.
Seabreeze
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Things are completely out of control at this moment. I'm just across the bay at my facility and have a perfect view. We have the fire channels tuned in on the radios. Fire is spreading to the adjacent tank farm it looks and sounds like.
spadilly
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S
Waltonloads08
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Seabreeze said:

Things are completely out of control at this moment. I'm just across the bay at my facility and have a perfect view. We have the fire channels tuned in on the radios. Fire is spreading to the adjacent tank farm it looks and sounds like.

Are they actually saying on the radio that a tank in another battery has caught fire?
suburban cowboy
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If it gets to those spheres the entire facility and surrounding area potentially goes, no?
CDUB98
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schmellba99 said:

CDUB98 said:

Funny thing about when contractors get kicked out.

Typically, only the management changes. All the day-to-day workers remain the same. They just change the sticker on their hard hat and continue the previous unsafe practices.
On maintenance, that is pretty true - at least 75% remain at the site and just get a different company paycheck. On capital projects or special projects, not so much. Well, at least my experience - which admittedly I left the petrochem industry 15 years ago.


Agree. That's what my post was generally aiming at; the embedded contractors. Not the one-off capital contractors.

The small ($50k-$1MM) capital project guys are sometimes embedded and they'll typically stay too. Though, even these small ones are starting to farm out.
CDUB98
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suburban cowboy said:

If it gets to those spheres the entire facility and surrounding area potentially goes, no?


I have a feeling the spheres are well protected with relief valves based on fire case and also with water systems surrounding that can be turned on ahead of time.
CDUB98
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Seabreeze said:

Things are completely out of control at this moment. I'm just across the bay at my facility and have a perfect view. We have the fire channels tuned in on the radios. Fire is spreading to the adjacent tank farm it looks and sounds like.


HO-LEE SHE-YOT!!
RVAg02
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we've been able to see it clearly from our office in Greenway since Sunday, but all of a sudden we can't.

Did it go out? Doesn't seem right given the reports.
TommyGun
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RVAg02 said:

we've been able to see it clearly from our office in Greenway since Sunday, but all of a sudden we can't.

Did it go out? Doesn't seem right given the reports.


I'm looking at it outside of my office just a few miles away. I think winds are shifting a bit and the plume is starting to move in a more northerly direction.
RVAg02
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TommyGun said:

RVAg02 said:

we've been able to see it clearly from our office in Greenway since Sunday, but all of a sudden we can't.

Did it go out? Doesn't seem right given the reports.


I'm looking at it outside of my office just a few miles away. I think winds are shifting a bit and the plume is starting to move in a more northerly direction.
Yup. That's so weird. We've been able to see it clear as day until about 15 min ago.
Ducks4brkfast
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CDUB98 said:

Seabreeze said:

Things are completely out of control at this moment. I'm just across the bay at my facility and have a perfect view. We have the fire channels tuned in on the radios. Fire is spreading to the adjacent tank farm it looks and sounds like.


HO-LEE SHE-YOT!!
Calm down, Darlene.

And no, you cannot work from home.
schmellba99
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CDUB98 said:

suburban cowboy said:

If it gets to those spheres the entire facility and surrounding area potentially goes, no?


I have a feeling the spheres are well protected with relief valves based on fire case and also with water systems surrounding that can be turned on ahead of time.
They are. Spheres have all kinds of fire protection system as they are typically refined fuel and need those systems. Or at least that is what we were told when I was working in Valero Texas City and we had a fire and a decomp and the water jets on the spheres turned on.
DRE06
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I'm can't believe that as soon as that fire started they didn't start immediately moving the product in the surrounding tanks either to other terminals or at least to tanks located in manifolds far away from the fire.
CFTXAG10
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RVAg02 said:

we've been able to see it clearly from our office in Greenway since Sunday, but all of a sudden we can't.

Did it go out? Doesn't seem right given the reports.
Its lost its color a bit too, my office is about 15 miles away and its not a thick black plume anymore
suburban cowboy
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CDUB98 said:

suburban cowboy said:

If it gets to those spheres the entire facility and surrounding area potentially goes, no?


I have a feeling the spheres are well protected with relief valves based on fire case and also with water systems surrounding that can be turned on ahead of time.



Agreed. Hopefully they don't lose total control because if they do those layers of protection may be compromised.
CFTXAG10
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CDUB98
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DRE06 said:

I'm can't believe that as soon as that fire started they didn't start immediately moving the product in the surrounding tanks either to other terminals or at least to tanks located in manifolds far away from the fire.


1) You've got to have empty space to put it. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. There's also reaction and cross contamination issues to think about, though cross contamination is way down the list as product can be replaced.

2) The safety of people is important. You don't want to send them out to a burning tank farm next to a potential bomb to line up valves.
Boo Weekley
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In an absolute worst case scenario, how big of a blast radius are we talking? Asking for a Patty.
suburban cowboy
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I was just informed the fire is approaching a benzene tank.

It's beginning to look like this could get A LOT worse.
DRE06
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There's always a place to put it, either onsite in other tanks or offsite. There's tons of other terminals on the ship channel that stores these components. Can always load it on barges too. These are only 80mb tanks.
CDUB98
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suburban cowboy said:

I was just informed the fire is approaching a benzene tank.

It's beginning to look like this could get A LOT worse.


CDUB98
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DRE06 said:

There's always a place to put it, either onsite in other tanks or offsite. There's tons of other terminals on the ship channel that stores these components. Can always load it on barges too. These are only 80mb tanks.


Well, how about you just run down there and stand next to those fires and turn the valves then.
Coog97
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Had a nice view from atop the east belt ship channel bridge around 8:15 this morning... could easily see, amidst the thick smoke, pretty darn intense looking flames reaching what had to be several stories high.
jetch17
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