I'm a man, I'm 40. Sorry, had to say it. lol. Actually I'm 42 but thats neither here or there.

It's been years since I bought a game with a disc. I can download a game from the Xbox app on my phone, to the Xbox at home. When I get home, the game is downloaded and ready to be played.

Anyone still buying disc games are the ones still hanging onto that flip phone that hasn't been turned on in 20 years.

Let go of the past. Embrace the future. Its not that scary.

...what?

If a game requires a server to run, then it doesn't matter if you have a disc or digital copy... the server is still required. You either have to host your own or use theirs.

I honestly try not to buy anything that isn't on steam at this point. So much easier to just run everything from that launcher.

Yeah, the game may be removed (company goes out of business or shuts down the servers), but by the time that happens I will either have gotten my money's worth out of the game or already decided I wasted my money on the purchase. Also, that is pretty rare regardless.

It is incredibly convenient when upgrading computers, going to a laptop, steam deck, etc. it's also convenient utilizing the steam app on my phone to buy and remote download games.

If the game is really popular, another gaming company will buy the rights and keep the server running. Only mid or sub par games get shut down that only affect maybe few hundred people.

BTHOB said:

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The Ex Officio Director said:

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I'm a man, I'm 40. Sorry, had to say it. lol. Actually I'm 42 but thats neither here or there.

It's been years since I bought a game with a disc. I can download a game from the Xbox app on my phone, to the Xbox at home. When I get home, the game is downloaded and ready to be played.

Anyone still buying disc games are the ones still hanging onto that flip phone that hasn't been turned on in 20 years.

Let go of the past. Embrace the future. Its not that scary.

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When I buy a game, I like to own it. If I have to rely on playing it off the server (via download or otherwise) then the supplier can go out of business or otherwise deny access at their discretion. If I own physical media, and a device upon which to play it, then I can keep playing it even if the servers are no longer available.

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Physical media has a shelf life too. Your Blu-ray Discs degrade over time.

The likelihood of your games disappearing from a digital store are less likely than your disc being damaged or degraded

Games are also hardly ever printed in an optimal state at launch, there's so many patches necessary to improve the product and remove bugs that happen even on the day 1 patch

AggiEE said:

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BTHOB said:

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The Ex Officio Director said:

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I'm a man, I'm 40. Sorry, had to say it. lol. Actually I'm 42 but thats neither here or there.

It's been years since I bought a game with a disc. I can download a game from the Xbox app on my phone, to the Xbox at home. When I get home, the game is downloaded and ready to be played.

Anyone still buying disc games are the ones still hanging onto that flip phone that hasn't been turned on in 20 years.

Let go of the past. Embrace the future. Its not that scary.

---

When I buy a game, I like to own it. If I have to rely on playing it off the server (via download or otherwise) then the supplier can go out of business or otherwise deny access at their discretion. If I own physical media, and a device upon which to play it, then I can keep playing it even if the servers are no longer available.

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Physical media has a shelf life too. Your Blu-ray Discs degrade over time.

The likelihood of your games disappearing from a digital store are less likely than your disc being damaged or degraded

Games are also hardly ever printed in an optimal state at launch, there's so many patches necessary to improve the product and remove bugs that happen even on the day 1 patch

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Lol dont have physical media. It is physical and will degrade with time.

That's your message?

There are exceptions - Forza Horizon series is one example. Had years to buy it though and if you did you can still download.

I wish physical was still more of thing, but unfortunately it's not. I fear console game prices will go up on average in a digital only world. PC should be fine since there are multiple stores.

Can we change the title of this thread from GTA VI to physical vs. digital media/PC vs. console

TAMUallen said:

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AggiEE said:

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BTHOB said:

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The Ex Officio Director said:

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I'm a man, I'm 40. Sorry, had to say it. lol. Actually I'm 42 but thats neither here or there.

It's been years since I bought a game with a disc. I can download a game from the Xbox app on my phone, to the Xbox at home. When I get home, the game is downloaded and ready to be played.

Anyone still buying disc games are the ones still hanging onto that flip phone that hasn't been turned on in 20 years.

Let go of the past. Embrace the future. Its not that scary.

---

When I buy a game, I like to own it. If I have to rely on playing it off the server (via download or otherwise) then the supplier can go out of business or otherwise deny access at their discretion. If I own physical media, and a device upon which to play it, then I can keep playing it even if the servers are no longer available.

---

Physical media has a shelf life too. Your Blu-ray Discs degrade over time.

The likelihood of your games disappearing from a digital store are less likely than your disc being damaged or degraded

Games are also hardly ever printed in an optimal state at launch, there's so many patches necessary to improve the product and remove bugs that happen even on the day 1 patch

---

Lol dont have physical media. It is physical and will degrade with time.

That's your message?

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I've owned games digitally for over twenty years now

Not a single time have I not been able to download a game I've owned

Plenty of physical games I used to own no longer work or got lost or broken

Aggie71013 said:

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There are exceptions - Forza Horizon series is one example. Had years to buy it though and if you did you can still download.

I wish physical was still more of thing, but unfortunately it's not. I fear console game prices will go up on average in a digital only world. PC should be fine since there are multiple stores.

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Competition occurs within a walled marketplace. Discounting is not done exclusively because of multiple marketplace competition for sales of the exact same product. Competition exists across marketplaces and between games.

PlayStation has had influence over pricing of every game ever sold. The publisher and PlayStation dictate the price floor for profitability of every game ever sold since 1994.

Walmart and Amazon are still going to buy digital codes wholesale and sell digital codes retail.

Discounting is primarily driven by revenue maximization by expending all consumers willing to pay full price and then inducing a secondary wave of purchases by reducing price, then it turns into a psychological game of getting people to buy games they otherwise would not have by placing the price low enough that people will buy it for the future option while never actually consuming the media.

It's why a subscription based service is actually more consumer friendly in actual impact than a purchase economy, because the things people are purchasing are decreasing in value,, generally only consumed once, and sometimes purchased without consuming at all. The emotions of the illusion of not owning (even if you buy physical you don't technically own it) are a barrier for a lot of people.

jr15aggie said:

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Yes sir. I grew up in the Austin area and back in the day you had to drive into Austin to get to a store that sold video games. The 30 min car ride home was nothing but reading every word of the game box and manual.

By the time I got home, I was ready to rock.

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I even called the Nintendo tip line a few times, I think I got stuck somewhere on Startropics, found the old number, 1-900-288-0707, Good times good times.

hph6203 said:

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Walmart and Amazon are still going to buy digital codes wholesale and sell digital codes retail.

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Sony doesn't allow third party game keys. They are absolutely trying to monopolize their ecosystem.

You should read their announcement.

I'll believe it when I see it. This is the same company that previously allowed it but removed it in order to monopolize the sales. Same company that didn't charge for multiplayer access and then hid it behind a subscription. Press releases don't mean anything.

Announcement states they are ending physical media sales and only selling new games in digital formats through the PlayStation Store and retailers.

PlayStation already has a monopoly on pricing. They control the input cost of every retailer that sells their games. Since 1994. They just allow those retailers a share for increasing their footprint/consumer access. If they wanted to at any point they could undercut their price or raise their input costs. Retailers have absolutely zero competitive leverage against Sony in pricing.

Sony is Ford. Walmart and Amazon are Ford Dealerships. They can give you discounts relative to wholesale prices, but they cannot durably price undercut their supplier. Sony is making the same money if Walmart sells you a game for $70 or $60.

Your perception is an illusion. Just like the illusion that physical games are ownership. They can restrict access to a physical game just like they can with a digital one.

I saw that which is why I said "I'll believe it when I see it."

Promises now for future behavior don't hold water for me.

They've shown repeatedly they are deceptive and completely willing to screw their consumers over. You even admit they have a monopoly and you think they'll behave?

Physical existing helps keep pricing competitive and available to a larger audience. Just go look at the difference in pricing for older games at the PlayStation store vs physical through retailers.
https://www.tomsguide.com/gaming/playstation/playstation-killing-physical-games-could-make-gaming-deals-a-thing-of-the-past-and-thats-a-major-problem

Arguing that a reduction in options is a good thing for consumers is just an absurd argument. It's comical.

It's not that it's good for consumers. That has never been stated. It's that it's not substantially different than the status quo. Sony allows the undercutting of pricing of their digital store, because the retailers have already bought that game at full price. They're allowing retailers to clear inventory so that they continue buying the next game. Those retailers are very likely taking losses on sales when they sell you a game for $35. Sony made ~$10-15 on that game, the publisher made ~35-40.

The reasons why retailers discount games is different than the reason why Sony is incentivized to discount games. Retailers discount games to clear inventory. Sony discounts games to extract every dollar from the consumer they can. They offer an initial price, exhaust consumers willing to spend $70 for a game, reduce prices to capture the larger market and then increase prices back to retail to provide the illusion that you're getting a deal.

It's why the God of War Ragnarok Deluxe edition is $40 right now and the God of War Ragnarok standard edition is $70. It demonstrates a deal to a consumer when they are really buying it at what Sony expects it to be purchased at.

The entity it is good for are the game developers that no longer have to front cash to buy physical editions to be competitive with other games on shelves. It's good for Sony and the developers in that they retain a higher proportion of the sale.

Sony is not incentivized to cut out retailers, because retailers volume buy games and front load revenues for Sony. Retailers use games as an inducement to shop. It's why they're in the back of Targets and Walmarts.m, so they'll still buy the card in a box.

I don't particularly care if it's better for Sony and I don't understand why any consumer would care about that. It's worse for consumers. That's all that matters to me. If you're all in and digital and don't care about game pricing that's your call. I don't understand that would lead anyone to cheer or defend a reduction in consumer options.

I can go buy a game from GOG and burn it to a disc. It's as much line as anything possibly could be. They do this because the pc gaming ecosystem is competitive and if you want to survive against steam (who provides far and away the best digital storefront experience) you have to provide some type of value. Sony doesn't have any incentive to provide value to consumers because they have no real competition.

Fenrir said:

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I saw that which is why I said "I'll believe it when I see it."

Promises now for future behavior don't hold water for me.

They've shown repeatedly they are deceptive and completely willing to screw their consumers over. You even admit they have a monopoly and you think they'll behave?

Physical existing helps keep pricing competitive and available to a larger audience. Just go look at the difference in pricing for older games at the PlayStation store vs physical through retailers.
https://www.tomsguide.com/gaming/playstation/playstation-killing-physical-games-could-make-gaming-deals-a-thing-of-the-past-and-thats-a-major-problem

Arguing that a reduction in options is a good thing for consumers is just an absurd argument. It's comical.

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Some gamers care more about the health of the industry than having the most consumer options.

Something can be "pro consumer" but decidedly terrible for the industry. Just look at the GamePass model that is crumbling before our eyes and causing massive studio closures and layoffs at Microsoft.

GamePass, a "pro-consumer" streaming service just incentivized an entire audience to not buy games or just wait for games to come to GamePass instead where the studios only receive a fraction of the revenue.

While some may certainly not like the fact that removing physical games essentially kills the used game and rental market, it may be better overall for the health of the business which ultimately should help support developers stay in business and develop games we all enjoy. It was an inevitability anyways, as most of the consumers have moved completely over to digital.

So yeah, I can support this initiative that will ultimately help support developers even if it means that a certain portion of the market can't gain access to the cheapest options available any longer.

This is still a market that competes amongst themselves for consumer dollars and attention, so it's not like sales are going away. And I guarantee that every major third party developer was consulted on this move and endorses it fully.

hph6203 said:

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They do it because that game has lost basically all of its market value. Not because PC is competitive. PC is not competitive. Steam has something like 85% of the market. People are not routinely price shopping Steam vs GOG vs Epic. Steam owns the market.

The reason they do it is to extract the last remnants of revenue they possibly can out of a game that has totally lost attention. It's why you can get "greedy" Sony's God of War, Uncharted Legacy of Thieves, Days Gone and Horizon Zero Dawn on GOG right now.

A typical game makes ~50% of its revenue in the first month. It makes 30% in the next 5 months. It makes another 10% by the end of its first year. After that the game is dead, no one is buying it. The way they induce buying is by discounting the game. That is regardless of the level of control of the publisher or platform holder.

They do not make more money by keeping prices high. They are not Rolex or Versace. Scarcity is not good. There is no prestige in owning a God of War game. They will discount it when momentum is gone, they will discount the ever living crap out of it during scheduled sales to attract buyers (Summer sale, Fall sale, Winter Sale, Spring sale).

That is how they maximize revenue, not by perpetually keeping prices high like Nintendo. Nintendo does it for ideological reasons, not revenue maximizing reasons. They are missing out on revenue.

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The only way Nintendo gets away with it is because the only reason to buy their systems is to play Nintendo games.

Not the case on Playstation. First party games are an important, but much smaller part of their ecosystem that is mostly based on third party titles.

Sony, in effect, has to compete with other third party games on their own platform, while Nintendo does not. So the person that wants to buy a Nintendo Switch 2 to gain access to Nintendo games specifically is simply without any significant third party competition that would drive down prices of Nintendo's games.

They're also catering to a much younger audience that is functionally perpetually replenished on a rolling basis and old game is new is viable for a 6 year old, and the new parent is excited about introducing their kid to characters from their youth.

Still think they'd net more money by discounting, but it's definitely different than an Uncharted game.

HOLY WALLS OF TEXT!

texsn95 said:

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jr15aggie said:

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Yes sir. I grew up in the Austin area and back in the day you had to drive into Austin to get to a store that sold video games. The 30 min car ride home was nothing but reading every word of the game box and manual.

By the time I got home, I was ready to rock.

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I even called the Nintendo tip line a few times, I think I got stuck somewhere on Startropics, found the old number, 1-900-288-0707, Good times good times.

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That's funny.... I remember calling the hotline for Startropics also. I got stuck at the piano keys and had no idea what to do.

Also called them for the 1st TMNT game. There was this stupid tiny gap that I could not jump over no matter what I did because the ceiling was too low. Turns out you could just walk across the gap. The ONLY time in 8 bit history where you could walk across a gap.

jr15aggie said:

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texsn95 said:

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jr15aggie said:

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Yes sir. I grew up in the Austin area and back in the day you had to drive into Austin to get to a store that sold video games. The 30 min car ride home was nothing but reading every word of the game box and manual.

By the time I got home, I was ready to rock.

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I even called the Nintendo tip line a few times, I think I got stuck somewhere on Startropics, found the old number, 1-900-288-0707, Good times good times.

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That's funny.... I remember calling the hotline for Startropics also. I got stuck at the piano keys and had no idea what to do.

Also called them for the 1st TMNT game. There was this stupid tiny gap that I could not jump over no matter what I did because the ceiling was too low. Turns out you could just walk across the gap. The ONLY time in 8 bit history where you could walk across a gap.

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Lol, dude, exact same experiences here. I absolutely loved Startropics and pulled my hair out trying to figure out some of those puzzles. And STILL to this date hold that TMNT game as one of the hardest I've ever played.

Nintendo Power mail day was the highlight of my month!

There was just something special about not always having the world at your fingertips all the time.

When it was Friday, you get off the bus, check the mail, and there was the latest Nintendo Power... You knew it was going to be a great weekend. If your mom also agreed to take you to rent a game it pretty much didn't get any better.

As for the current topic - the extinction of physical copies of games - I'm an old school gamer who doesn't game that much these days, but my son does. Yes, we may be past the point of physical versions due to the storage limits on them (however, the gaming industry evolved from atari cartridges to disks yet somehow they can't evolve any further to a new form of physical media for their games?). But that's just a convenient excuse for them.

This is about two things only -

being able to continually charge for games via subscriptions, licensing fees, etc.

and eliminating the 2nd-hand market where people can buy a used physical copy, which takes money away from the studios, Sony, etc.

The elimination of consumer options is always a bad thing. But "we" did it to ourselves through our purchasing habits (although we kind of were shepherded in that direction). And 20 years from now people will bemoan how they have to shell out $500/mo just to be able to play their favorite games.

jr15aggie said:

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There was just something special about not always having the world at your fingertips all the time.

When it was Friday, you get off the bus, check the mail, and there was the latest Nintendo Power... You knew it was going to be a great weekend. If your mom also agreed to take you to rent a game it pretty much didn't get any better.

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I lived in a small town with one video rental store... So it was an absolute race to get to that store on friday afternoons to get the movie and game that you wanted before someone else did! If my parents were late picking me up? Forget about it!

These industries still have to balance what they do with how much it pushes people to pirating.

I haven't pirated a song in over a decade because Spotify makes it so easy and affordable to listen to everything I could ever want to. Gaming, TV shows, and movies are all in the same situation. Unless the game is online-based, you can always find a cracked version somewhere. I've not done this in a very long time, either, because Steam just makes life easy and provides some great pricing.

Companies have to find that balance. Notice how I didn't mention a similar service to Spotify and Steam for TV shows and movies. Read into that what you will.

Games were an also ran for CDs. Peak CD demand was 2.5 billion discs, 80+% of which was the music industry.

Same for DVDs. 3.5 billion peak sales, 80+% for film.

Blu-ray fell off. Peaked at 1 billion or so, 50-50 games and film.

UHD Blu-ray is printing ~70 million discs, 80+% of which is the games industry.


98% reduction in physical media. Transitioning to discs from cartridges was a cost cutting maneuver, piggy backing off of music, and then film. A new physical media would be for the near sole purpose of catering to the 15% of the market that buys physical games.

The market that buys physical games is reducing by ~2% per year. By the end of the PS6 lifecycle it would likely be <10% of the market. Not enough to justify developing new media when you consider the 15% of the market also buys digital games.

Regardless of whether you love digital or physical, I think what is getting glossed over here is how poorly the message was delivered. It clearly struck a nerve with a ton of people. Just a couple of cold sentences in a press release with little context and some PR BS seemed to miss the mark.

I think Sony could have saved themselves a lot of angst if they spent more than 2 minutes on the release and articulated some of the rationale or some of the plans that may help those that have big physical collections.

I hear you, and it is a good justification....

But will they be dropping the prices of the games since they don't need to budget for physical production costs?

Will they swear on their mother's graves to give you perpetual downloadable ownership of a game once you purchase it, never requiring additional licensing fees, and letting you play it offline even if you don't have a current subscription to their online membership?

Again I agree, the shift in players' habits is a great justification. It just unfortunately coincides with a reduction of consumer rights and abilities.

FL_Ag1998 said:

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I hear you, and it is a good justification....

But will they be dropping the prices of the games since they don't need to budget for physical production costs?

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They already dropped. The transition from PS3 to PS4 had no price increases. From 2006 until 2020 there was no increase in game prices despite substantially higher game production costs. During the same period sales went from 100% physical to 15% physical. An inflation matched, ignoring game size increases, would have a 2006 $60 game cost $100 today. They're $70 now.

Quote:

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Will they swear on their mother's graves to give you perpetual downloadable ownership of a game once you purchase it, never requiring additional licensing fees, and letting you play it offline even if you don't have a current subscription to their online membership?

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No. Why would they guarantee something they aren't forced to do? That's why arguing and *****ing about them dropping physical games is silly and people should be demanding digital purchase rights protections.

A physical disc has been a revocable license for a long time. That started in the 80's. Same categorization as a digital purchase. You own the disc, you don't own the game and the access to the game is not guaranteed. The difficulty of revoking access to a physical game gave some consumer protection, but it was not really ingrained in law.



If I had my way Sony would delay the PS5 to 2030, continue production of physical games until 2030. They would implement game sharing on a limited basis between a limited number of friends. And congress would pass a law that required multiple marketplaces on platforms or minimally forced corporations to allow new marketplaces on platforms they had previously abandoned. In other words if Sony doesn't want to sell games on PS3 and Vita then they're forced to allow a third party access to operate a digital marketplace on the platforms.