Vernada said:

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Rusty GCS said:

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I saw a job posting by Westlake Chemical recently that said vaccination was a requirement of employment

I'm guessing we might see more of that moving forward. There might be some federal incentive to these companies to require it. Otherwise, form a business sense, I don't see the reason.

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Don't know for sure, but a lot of companies self insure. Requiring vaccination is just good risk mitigation from a $$ perspective.

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You'd think that, but if the companies don't get a waiver of liability they're going to lose money.

Prince_Ahmed said:

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agdaddy04 said:

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I work for a decent size company that would be impacted by the OSHA directive. It hasn't come out at all that they'll be requiring it. Also just received our updated insurance information for next year since we're in open enrollment, and there is no surcharge for being unvaccinated.

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It hasn't "come out" at my company either, but we'll drag our feet and eventually comply with the law when forced. I'm hearing that's pretty much the stance of most companies large enough to fall under the regs, according to the big survey/consulting firms (Mercer/Willis Towers Watson/Aon). And many companies will also push any cost of the regs to employees, either via a surcharge (which may be tricky under current regs) or just by forcing unvaccinated people to pay for thier testing (if the OSHA guidelines allow for it). None of that has to happen concurrent with open enrollment.

I doubt we'll see additional surcharges to mitigate the cost of medical care for unvaccinated people. That would be harder to do, and is a better headline than a practical solution.

Now, the employment side is out of my wheelhouse, but companies can absolutely have hiring and employment policies that require vaccines. That's not illegal discrimination. And again, the news has reported all this turnover, but it's really isolated to specific industries - retail, food service, blue collar warehouse stuff, manufacturing. In many other areas it's an employer's market for talent.

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I think you'd run into some disparate impact issues/cases.

Honestly I see this as an HR nightmare that most companies do not want. Most mandating it are probably feeling some perceived pressure to enforce the mandate to either get out ahead of potential lawsuits and /or deal with certain loud factions of employees who are demanding that their fellow employees get vaccinated. In the end, all this is about is the fear of lawsuits and I theorize that once the virus is no longer a big issue in a year or 2, most companies will GLADLY remove the mandates quietly and without much issue.

The climate is so divisive right now a lot of companies feel compelled to "do something" but there is just no way to make the right call here. So the biggest risk for lawsuit is from the virus at this point. Could an employee actually win one of these? Who knows. But companies also do not want to feel the need to just go to court or pay off the plaintiff over all of this. Currently there isn't a major issue (ie side effects) regarding the vaccine for most adults. So, at this point, the threat of a lawsuit over a mandate is low.

Here is something interesting though. What if there are some major side effects from vaccination or something with enough association to make many think their issue came from a mandate to get the vaccine. So while I do not anticipate major side effects from the vaccine, there still is a threat there too. Which is why I personally feel companies should steer clear of any mandate regarding an employee's health or body. Honestly one could make the point that companies could go further and mandate BMI levels or BF% levels or other health measurements and data given that most physically fit people tend to have much better health on average which means less sick people spreading illness, better immune systems to fight illness or prevent them and less sick time used etc. Yet that will never (nor should it) happen.

What's confusing for me is all of the contradicting policies in relation to the EO. We must be vaccinated one day, but another day if we are not vaccinated by the deadline then weekly testing will be discussed. Much like the mask mandate, it may be required, but will it be enforced at work? It hasnt since the beginning.

ChrisTAMU said:

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Duncan Idaho said:

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Yeah. I mean there are established channels to raise your concerns/questions/objections but posting #freedonflu, "covid is over" or "the left needs to find something new to exploit" on the company intranet isn't one of them.

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Where should they fight back against the nonsense their company is peddling? Seems a direct approach is the best approach. What are they going to do? Get fired? That might be coming anyway.

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Honestly, I disagree here completely. While I am against any mandates (and I have taken the vaccine and feel it is safe and effective enough to do what it's supposed to do), one should absolutely leave all politics and/or divisive opinions away from any intranet forum. It's just asking for an excuse to be fired. Hey, mandates are knee jerk reactions imo. But I would steer a million miles from actually posting on a company website about it. Its the problem with facebook and social media in general. People are getting too used to spouting their opinions in public that they forget that an employer can see those and fire one over it.

Spoke with cop son yesterday. He's been "mandated", and took the first shot a couple weeks ago. Said he felt like hell for a couple days.

He took the second shot Sunday and, when I asked him how it went he said that a few hours later he felt like ***** So much so that he took work off the next day. He described the sensation of his body feeling like it was on fire for a couple of hours. "All good now".

I didn't ask him if his three grade-school children had to, or took, the jab. I suppose ignorance is bliss.

If he didn't have a mortgage, three p/t kids, and associated obligations he wouldn't have taken the jab.

Capitol Ag said:

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ChrisTAMU said:

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Duncan Idaho said:

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Yeah. I mean there are established channels to raise your concerns/questions/objections but posting #freedonflu, "covid is over" or "the left needs to find something new to exploit" on the company intranet isn't one of them.

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Where should they fight back against the nonsense their company is peddling? Seems a direct approach is the best approach. What are they going to do? Get fired? That might be coming anyway.

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Honestly, I disagree here completely. While I am against any mandates (and I have taken the vaccine and feel it is safe and effective enough to do what it's supposed to do), one should absolutely leave all politics and/or divisive opinions away from any intranet forum. It's just asking for an excuse to be fired. Hey, mandates are knee jerk reactions imo. But I would steer a million miles from actually posting on a company website about it. Its the problem with facebook and social media in general. People are getting too used to spouting their opinions in public that they forget that an employer can see those and fire one over it.

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Again, if they're going to be fired anyway, why does it matter?

ChrisTAMU said:

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fig96 said:

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On the actual thread topic, my employer (very large pharma related company) let us know they had to mandate due to government contracts, I got vaccinated a while back because it seemed like a logical choice, and most in our organization are already vaccinated due to having lots of firsthand knowledge on drug development and realizing how ridiculous all the conspiracy theories are.

Felt fine after the first shot, slightly under the weather for a day from shot #2.

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Asking sincerely - what long term human data do we have on mRNA vaccines?

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A whole hell of a lot than we have on long term Covid.

And there are alternative options.

And vaccines shouldn't be mandated. But asking about long term data on mRNA vaccines is stupid.

TRM said:

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Prince_Ahmed said:

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agdaddy04 said:

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I work for a decent size company that would be impacted by the OSHA directive. It hasn't come out at all that they'll be requiring it. Also just received our updated insurance information for next year since we're in open enrollment, and there is no surcharge for being unvaccinated.

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It hasn't "come out" at my company either, but we'll drag our feet and eventually comply with the law when forced. I'm hearing that's pretty much the stance of most companies large enough to fall under the regs, according to the big survey/consulting firms (Mercer/Willis Towers Watson/Aon). And many companies will also push any cost of the regs to employees, either via a surcharge (which may be tricky under current regs) or just by forcing unvaccinated people to pay for thier testing (if the OSHA guidelines allow for it). None of that has to happen concurrent with open enrollment.

I doubt we'll see additional surcharges to mitigate the cost of medical care for unvaccinated people. That would be harder to do, and is a better headline than a practical solution.

Now, the employment side is out of my wheelhouse, but companies can absolutely have hiring and employment policies that require vaccines. That's not illegal discrimination. And again, the news has reported all this turnover, but it's really isolated to specific industries - retail, food service, blue collar warehouse stuff, manufacturing. In many other areas it's an employer's market for talent.

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I think you'd run into some disparate impact issues/cases.

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Meh. There's a much greater argument for disparate impact for tobacco surcharges and policies, and they have easily survived challenges.

ChrisTAMU said:

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fig96 said:

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On the actual thread topic, my employer (very large pharma related company) let us know they had to mandate due to government contracts, I got vaccinated a while back because it seemed like a logical choice, and most in our organization are already vaccinated due to having lots of firsthand knowledge on drug development and realizing how ridiculous all the conspiracy theories are.

Felt fine after the first shot, slightly under the weather for a day from shot #2.

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Asking sincerely - what long term human data do we have on mRNA vaccines?

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Most people don't realize they've been in a couple different vaccines in trials since 2017 so there's more data than you'd think, the issues have been with making them effective and not safety.

A few months back I had questions about EUA with regards to the vaccines and mRNA and asked a 25+ year veteran of the pharmaceutical testing industry and we had a great discussion about it. She dismissed any concerns about mRNA altering DNA as mRNA actually works it's way out of the body quite quickly. All typical early phase safety testing was done, just on an accelerated timeline due to the huge number of participants and massive collaboration to eliminate the whitespace that typically occurs between phases and approvals.

As with any drug there will be some risk, but in the case of a vaccine like this the benefits outweigh the risks by pretty much every measure.

ChrisTAMU said:

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Capitol Ag said:

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ChrisTAMU said:

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Duncan Idaho said:

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Yeah. I mean there are established channels to raise your concerns/questions/objections but posting #freedonflu, "covid is over" or "the left needs to find something new to exploit" on the company intranet isn't one of them.

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Where should they fight back against the nonsense their company is peddling? Seems a direct approach is the best approach. What are they going to do? Get fired? That might be coming anyway.

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Honestly, I disagree here completely. While I am against any mandates (and I have taken the vaccine and feel it is safe and effective enough to do what it's supposed to do), one should absolutely leave all politics and/or divisive opinions away from any intranet forum. It's just asking for an excuse to be fired. Hey, mandates are knee jerk reactions imo. But I would steer a million miles from actually posting on a company website about it. Its the problem with facebook and social media in general. People are getting too used to spouting their opinions in public that they forget that an employer can see those and fire one over it.

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Again, if they're going to be fired anyway, why does it matter?

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Because looking like a conspiracy theorist and/or publicly bashing an employer is not great for anyone's future employment opportunities.

ChrisTAMU said:

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Capitol Ag said:

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ChrisTAMU said:

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Duncan Idaho said:

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Yeah. I mean there are established channels to raise your concerns/questions/objections but posting #freedonflu, "covid is over" or "the left needs to find something new to exploit" on the company intranet isn't one of them.

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Where should they fight back against the nonsense their company is peddling? Seems a direct approach is the best approach. What are they going to do? Get fired? That might be coming anyway.

---

Honestly, I disagree here completely. While I am against any mandates (and I have taken the vaccine and feel it is safe and effective enough to do what it's supposed to do), one should absolutely leave all politics and/or divisive opinions away from any intranet forum. It's just asking for an excuse to be fired. Hey, mandates are knee jerk reactions imo. But I would steer a million miles from actually posting on a company website about it. Its the problem with facebook and social media in general. People are getting too used to spouting their opinions in public that they forget that an employer can see those and fire one over it.

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Again, if they're going to be fired anyway, why does it matter?

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Until one is actually fired, they still work there. Might as well let things play out. Plus you never know what bridge you may burn down the line. I'd stay away from the site like it was the plague (pun intended)

JamesPShelley said:

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ChrisTAMU said:

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ORAggieFan said:

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ChrisTAMU said:

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fig96 said:

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On the actual thread topic, my employer (very large pharma related company) let us know they had to mandate due to government contracts, I got vaccinated a while back because it seemed like a logical choice, and most in our organization are already vaccinated due to having lots of firsthand knowledge on drug development and realizing how ridiculous all the conspiracy theories are.

Felt fine after the first shot, slightly under the weather for a day from shot #2.

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Asking sincerely - what long term human data do we have on mRNA vaccines?

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A whole hell of a lot than we have on long term Covid.

And there are alternative options.

And vaccines shouldn't be mandated. But asking about long term data on mRNA vaccines is stupid.

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Why is asking about a vaccine technology stupid?

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It isn't a stupid question. Just a response/method employed because a scientific-based response might reveal truths counter to belief.

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The party of science. The one that believes in not questioning science. How scientific!

Capitol Ag said:

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ChrisTAMU said:

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Capitol Ag said:

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ChrisTAMU said:

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Duncan Idaho said:

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Yeah. I mean there are established channels to raise your concerns/questions/objections but posting #freedonflu, "covid is over" or "the left needs to find something new to exploit" on the company intranet isn't one of them.

---

Where should they fight back against the nonsense their company is peddling? Seems a direct approach is the best approach. What are they going to do? Get fired? That might be coming anyway.

---

Honestly, I disagree here completely. While I am against any mandates (and I have taken the vaccine and feel it is safe and effective enough to do what it's supposed to do), one should absolutely leave all politics and/or divisive opinions away from any intranet forum. It's just asking for an excuse to be fired. Hey, mandates are knee jerk reactions imo. But I would steer a million miles from actually posting on a company website about it. Its the problem with facebook and social media in general. People are getting too used to spouting their opinions in public that they forget that an employer can see those and fire one over it.

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Again, if they're going to be fired anyway, why does it matter?

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Until one is actually fired, they still work there. Might as well let things play out. Plus you never know what bridge you may burn down the line. I'd stay away from the site like it was the plague (pun intended)

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Totally agree here. If you aren't going to actively seek employment elsewhere, which I think everyone should be doing immediately just in case, then I'd sit back and chill and wait for the deadline. When that deadline comes, I'd roll with "I'll bring my vax card tomorrow" and milk that as lo mg as you can. By then, hopefully the right thing will be done and it'll all go away. If so, then you'll still be cool and level headed. If not, then you'll be let go but hopefully you'll have found something else. Even if they don't end up letting you go, I'd probably take another offer at another company just because the company you're with isn't really committed to you anyway.

So I do private health insurance. Take away their leverage.

I am familiar with a medium sized company in west Texas who is in Open Enrollment right now. The company introduced 2 plans. One for Vaccinated - "Wellness". One for Non Vaccinated- "Non Wellness" The plans are the exact same except for cost.

The plan for the vaccinated is 33% the monthly cost of the nonvaccinated offering. The deductible is 12k for the unvaccinated, 3k for the vaccinated.

Here is what is hilarious.... If they detach their insurance from their job, and get private insurance instead they would get

1) Monthly Premiums way lower therefore they are getting more money in their paycheck
2) No deductible unless they stay overnight in the hospital
3) Not have to worry about a vaccine decision because their company insurance was trash coverage in the first place
4) Better benefits

Guardian Angel said:

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So I do private health insurance. Take away their leverage.

I am familiar with a medium sized company in west Texas who is in Open Enrollment right now. The company introduced 2 plans. One for Vaccinated - "Wellness". One for Non Vaccinated- "Non Wellness" The plans are the exact same except for cost.

The plan for the vaccinated is 33% the monthly cost of the nonvaccinated offering. The deductible is 12k for the unvaccinated, 3k for the vaccinated.

Here is what is hilarious.... If they detach their insurance from their job, and get private insurance instead they would get

1) Monthly Premiums way lower therefore they are getting more money in their paycheck
2) No deductible unless they stay overnight in the hospital
3) Not have to worry about a vaccine decision because their company insurance was trash coverage in the first place
4) Better benefits

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Where can I look to find this? I am looking into options to drop my insurance to avoid the fine.

Guardian Angel said:

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So I do private health insurance. Take away their leverage.

I am familiar with a medium sized company in west Texas who is in Open Enrollment right now. The company introduced 2 plans. One for Vaccinated - "Wellness". One for Non Vaccinated- "Non Wellness" The plans are the exact same except for cost.

The plan for the vaccinated is 33% the monthly cost of the nonvaccinated offering. The deductible is 12k for the unvaccinated, 3k for the vaccinated.

Here is what is hilarious.... If they detach their insurance from their job, and get private insurance instead they would get

1) Monthly Premiums way lower therefore they are getting more money in their paycheck
2) No deductible unless they stay overnight in the hospital
3) Not have to worry about a vaccine decision because their company insurance was trash coverage in the first place
4) Better benefits

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I'd love to see these medical insurance rates by age up until age 65, please, along with deductibles, plan limits, exclusions and maybe SBCs and a PDL. I'm sure that would be very educational to everyone here.