I think companies can mandate it if they want. It is a public health issue, "religious exemption" does not apply.

My brother in law was informed last week that anyone choosing not to get the vaccine would have to pay a penalty for insurance of $150/mo. Allegedly this is their insurance company making that change. It seems that is something that would be changed at open enrollment, not in the middle of the agreed upon terms.

He's got some research to do on the legality of changing those terms.

Rusty GCS said:

---

I saw a job posting by Westlake Chemical recently that said vaccination was a requirement of employment

I'm guessing we might see more of that moving forward. There might be some federal incentive to these companies to require it. Otherwise, form a business sense, I don't see the reason.

---

Don't know for sure, but a lot of companies self insure. Requiring vaccination is just good risk mitigation from a $$ perspective.

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Vernada said:

---

Rusty GCS said:

---

I saw a job posting by Westlake Chemical recently that said vaccination was a requirement of employment

I'm guessing we might see more of that moving forward. There might be some federal incentive to these companies to require it. Otherwise, form a business sense, I don't see the reason.

---

Don't know for sure, but a lot of companies self insure. Requiring vaccination is just good risk mitigation from a $$ perspective.

---

I'd like to see actual data on this for 18-40 year olds.

---

What kind of data do you expect to see? The vaccine (pre 3rd booster) was costing our plan about $60 per participant. Testing averages $150 per test. A member with a confirmed diagnosis costs a plan a little over $2k on average, and about half our cases are people under age 40. And for someone who is hospitalized, costs average about $50k.

Now, we're waiting on OSHA regs to see how we get to implement the government requirement that employers with >100 employees either require vaccines or require weekly testing, which will cost us a fortune, plus extra people just to track all of that.

Edit to add:

It's really hard for an employer to know who is vaccinated until we start asking. When the government required vaccines be "free" that meant some providers charged employer plans for the vaccine, and some paid for them via county or state or federal assets. Your employer only knows about the first category - those who ran through the plan.

For what we know at my organization, of the people with a confirmed diagnosis, 60% were either unvaccinated, or we had no record of a vaccine claim. And 70% of the most expensive cases (those over $50k) appear to have been unvaccinated.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old.

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Vernada said:

---

Rusty GCS said:

---

I saw a job posting by Westlake Chemical recently that said vaccination was a requirement of employment

I'm guessing we might see more of that moving forward. There might be some federal incentive to these companies to require it. Otherwise, form a business sense, I don't see the reason.

---

Don't know for sure, but a lot of companies self insure. Requiring vaccination is just good risk mitigation from a $$ perspective.

---

I'd like to see actual data on this for 18-40 year olds.

---

What kind of data do you expect to see? The vaccine (pre 3rd booster) was costing our plan about $60 per participant. Testing averages $150 per test. A member with a confirmed diagnosis costs a plan a little over $2k on average, and about half our cases are people under age 40. And for someone who is hospitalized, costs average about $50k.

Now, we're waiting on OSHA regs to see how we get to implement the government requirement that employers with >100 employees either require vaccines or require weekly testing, which will cost us a fortune, plus extra people just to track all of that.

Edit to add:

It's really hard for an employer to know who is vaccinated until we start asking. When the government required vaccines be "free" that meant some providers charged employer plans for the vaccine, and some paid for them via county or state or federal assets. Your employer only knows about the first category - those who ran through the plan.

For what we know at my organization, of the people with a confirmed diagnosis, 60% were either unvaccinated, or we had no record of a vaccine claim. And 70% of the most expensive cases (those over $50k) appear to have been unvaccinated.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'll have to look up numbers later, but your unvaccinated 18-40 year old covid case costs several times that of a vaccinated covid case. Right or wrong, that's a driver. It's just numbers.

I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old. That's a straw man, my friend. That said, medical plans have been addressing these kinds of things for years, as much as possible under the litany of applicable laws. Requiring care be given at centers of excellence for certain conditions, tobacco surcharges, and even BMI-based surcharges have been around for 15 years.

---

Why does an unvaccinated case cost more?

Comparing overall cost to providers among different groups is a straw man? We all know the young and healthy subsidize the old and sick.

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Vernada said:

---

Rusty GCS said:

---

I saw a job posting by Westlake Chemical recently that said vaccination was a requirement of employment

I'm guessing we might see more of that moving forward. There might be some federal incentive to these companies to require it. Otherwise, form a business sense, I don't see the reason.

---

Don't know for sure, but a lot of companies self insure. Requiring vaccination is just good risk mitigation from a $$ perspective.

---

I'd like to see actual data on this for 18-40 year olds.

---

What kind of data do you expect to see? The vaccine (pre 3rd booster) was costing our plan about $60 per participant. Testing averages $150 per test. A member with a confirmed diagnosis costs a plan a little over $2k on average, and about half our cases are people under age 40. And for someone who is hospitalized, costs average about $50k.

Now, we're waiting on OSHA regs to see how we get to implement the government requirement that employers with >100 employees either require vaccines or require weekly testing, which will cost us a fortune, plus extra people just to track all of that.

Edit to add:

It's really hard for an employer to know who is vaccinated until we start asking. When the government required vaccines be "free" that meant some providers charged employer plans for the vaccine, and some paid for them via county or state or federal assets. Your employer only knows about the first category - those who ran through the plan.

For what we know at my organization, of the people with a confirmed diagnosis, 60% were either unvaccinated, or we had no record of a vaccine claim. And 70% of the most expensive cases (those over $50k) appear to have been unvaccinated.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'll have to look up numbers later, but your unvaccinated 18-40 year old covid case costs several times that of a vaccinated covid case. Right or wrong, that's a driver. It's just numbers.

I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old. That's a straw man, my friend. That said, medical plans have been addressing these kinds of things for years, as much as possible under the litany of applicable laws. Requiring care be given at centers of excellence for certain conditions, tobacco surcharges, and even BMI-based surcharges have been around for 15 years.

---

Why does an unvaccinated case cost more?

Comparing overall cost to providers among different groups is a straw man? We all know the young and healthy subsidize the old and sick.

---

Why does an unvaccinated case cost more? Good question. In short, unvaccinated people experience covid symptoms more severely. The UK has better data than the US regarding who is vaccinated, and their latest data suggests that a 40 year old is twice as likely to be infected without the vaccine, five times more likely to be hospitalized without a vaccine, and eight times more likely to die than someone who received a vaccine (study based on Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca (used in the UK, but not in the US).

Of course the young and healthy subsidize the old and sick. Just like the careful drivers subsidize reckless drivers. That's kind of how insurance works. You do everything you can to mitigate the extremes, but large pools of numbers with varying risks make it work. Otherwise you get adverse selection and it stops working. The government has a ton of regulations in place to make it somewhat available to all. That's the biggest factor keeping old and sick insurable.

---

What data do you have on natural immunity?

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Vernada said:

---

Rusty GCS said:

---

I saw a job posting by Westlake Chemical recently that said vaccination was a requirement of employment

I'm guessing we might see more of that moving forward. There might be some federal incentive to these companies to require it. Otherwise, form a business sense, I don't see the reason.

---

Don't know for sure, but a lot of companies self insure. Requiring vaccination is just good risk mitigation from a $$ perspective.

---

I'd like to see actual data on this for 18-40 year olds.

---

What kind of data do you expect to see? The vaccine (pre 3rd booster) was costing our plan about $60 per participant. Testing averages $150 per test. A member with a confirmed diagnosis costs a plan a little over $2k on average, and about half our cases are people under age 40. And for someone who is hospitalized, costs average about $50k.

Now, we're waiting on OSHA regs to see how we get to implement the government requirement that employers with >100 employees either require vaccines or require weekly testing, which will cost us a fortune, plus extra people just to track all of that.

Edit to add:

It's really hard for an employer to know who is vaccinated until we start asking. When the government required vaccines be "free" that meant some providers charged employer plans for the vaccine, and some paid for them via county or state or federal assets. Your employer only knows about the first category - those who ran through the plan.

For what we know at my organization, of the people with a confirmed diagnosis, 60% were either unvaccinated, or we had no record of a vaccine claim. And 70% of the most expensive cases (those over $50k) appear to have been unvaccinated.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'll have to look up numbers later, but your unvaccinated 18-40 year old covid case costs several times that of a vaccinated covid case. Right or wrong, that's a driver. It's just numbers.

I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old. That's a straw man, my friend. That said, medical plans have been addressing these kinds of things for years, as much as possible under the litany of applicable laws. Requiring care be given at centers of excellence for certain conditions, tobacco surcharges, and even BMI-based surcharges have been around for 15 years.

---

Why does an unvaccinated case cost more?

Comparing overall cost to providers among different groups is a straw man? We all know the young and healthy subsidize the old and sick.

---

Why does an unvaccinated case cost more? Good question. In short, unvaccinated people experience covid symptoms more severely. The UK has better data than the US regarding who is vaccinated, and their latest data suggests that a 40 year old is twice as likely to be infected without the vaccine, five times more likely to be hospitalized without a vaccine, and eight times more likely to die than someone who received a vaccine (study based on Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca (used in the UK, but not in the US).

Of course the young and healthy subsidize the old and sick. Just like the careful drivers subsidize reckless drivers. That's kind of how insurance works. You do everything you can to mitigate the extremes, but large pools of numbers with varying risks make it work. Otherwise you get adverse selection and it stops working. The government has a ton of regulations in place to make it somewhat available to all. That's the biggest factor keeping old and sick insurable.

---

What data do you have on natural immunity?

---

I don't think I've seen anything recent on natural immunity, other than what you'd find on Google. And I'll stop hijacking the thread for now - I've probably worn out my welcome.

I work for a decent size company that would be impacted by the OSHA directive. It hasn't come out at all that they'll be requiring it. Also just received our updated insurance information for next year since we're in open enrollment, and there is no surcharge for being unvaccinated.

agdaddy04 said:

---

I work for a decent size company that would be impacted by the OSHA directive. It hasn't come out at all that they'll be requiring it. Also just received our updated insurance information for next year since we're in open enrollment, and there is no surcharge for being unvaccinated.

---

It hasn't "come out" at my company either, but we'll drag our feet and eventually comply with the law when forced. I'm hearing that's pretty much the stance of most companies large enough to fall under the regs, according to the big survey/consulting firms (Mercer/Willis Towers Watson/Aon). And many companies will also push any cost of the regs to employees, either via a surcharge (which may be tricky under current regs) or just by forcing unvaccinated people to pay for thier testing (if the OSHA guidelines allow for it). None of that has to happen concurrent with open enrollment.

I doubt we'll see additional surcharges to mitigate the cost of medical care for unvaccinated people. That would be harder to do, and is a better headline than a practical solution.

Now, the employment side is out of my wheelhouse, but companies can absolutely have hiring and employment policies that require vaccines. That's not illegal discrimination. And again, the news has reported all this turnover, but it's really isolated to specific industries - retail, food service, blue collar warehouse stuff, manufacturing. In many other areas it's an employer's market for talent.

In our open enrollment email on Friday, they noted we "still haven't made a decision on requiring the vaccine" but insurance premiums will be an extra $700 per covered adult for those unvaccinated.

This blows. Time to really start looking for those blank vaccine cards.

Well when that happens guess I'll be looking for a new job.

$700 per year or pay period?

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Vernada said:

---

Rusty GCS said:

---

I saw a job posting by Westlake Chemical recently that said vaccination was a requirement of employment

I'm guessing we might see more of that moving forward. There might be some federal incentive to these companies to require it. Otherwise, form a business sense, I don't see the reason.

---

Don't know for sure, but a lot of companies self insure. Requiring vaccination is just good risk mitigation from a $$ perspective.

---

I'd like to see actual data on this for 18-40 year olds.

---

What kind of data do you expect to see? The vaccine (pre 3rd booster) was costing our plan about $60 per participant. Testing averages $150 per test. A member with a confirmed diagnosis costs a plan a little over $2k on average, and about half our cases are people under age 40. And for someone who is hospitalized, costs average about $50k.

Now, we're waiting on OSHA regs to see how we get to implement the government requirement that employers with >100 employees either require vaccines or require weekly testing, which will cost us a fortune, plus extra people just to track all of that.

Edit to add:

It's really hard for an employer to know who is vaccinated until we start asking. When the government required vaccines be "free" that meant some providers charged employer plans for the vaccine, and some paid for them via county or state or federal assets. Your employer only knows about the first category - those who ran through the plan.

For what we know at my organization, of the people with a confirmed diagnosis, 60% were either unvaccinated, or we had no record of a vaccine claim. And 70% of the most expensive cases (those over $50k) appear to have been unvaccinated.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old.

---

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html

62558 18-49 year olds have been hospitalized from 2020-21.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1254271/us-total-number-of-covid-cases-by-age-group/

~18 million 18-49 total cases as of October '21

~.03%

Generally, a medical surcharge can't be more than 30% of the total cost of the medical benefit, so a $700 surcharge per individual would almost certainly be yearly.

texan12 said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Vernada said:

---

Rusty GCS said:

---

I saw a job posting by Westlake Chemical recently that said vaccination was a requirement of employment

I'm guessing we might see more of that moving forward. There might be some federal incentive to these companies to require it. Otherwise, form a business sense, I don't see the reason.

---

Don't know for sure, but a lot of companies self insure. Requiring vaccination is just good risk mitigation from a $$ perspective.

---

I'd like to see actual data on this for 18-40 year olds.

---

What kind of data do you expect to see? The vaccine (pre 3rd booster) was costing our plan about $60 per participant. Testing averages $150 per test. A member with a confirmed diagnosis costs a plan a little over $2k on average, and about half our cases are people under age 40. And for someone who is hospitalized, costs average about $50k.

Now, we're waiting on OSHA regs to see how we get to implement the government requirement that employers with >100 employees either require vaccines or require weekly testing, which will cost us a fortune, plus extra people just to track all of that.

Edit to add:

It's really hard for an employer to know who is vaccinated until we start asking. When the government required vaccines be "free" that meant some providers charged employer plans for the vaccine, and some paid for them via county or state or federal assets. Your employer only knows about the first category - those who ran through the plan.

For what we know at my organization, of the people with a confirmed diagnosis, 60% were either unvaccinated, or we had no record of a vaccine claim. And 70% of the most expensive cases (those over $50k) appear to have been unvaccinated.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old.

---

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html

62558 18-49 year olds have been hospitalized from 2020-21.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1254271/us-total-number-of-covid-cases-by-age-group/

~18 million 18-49 total cases as of October '21

~.03%

---

Not sure what that proved. According to your first link, there have been just as many hospitalizations for people ages 50-65 (give or take a thousand).

Someone asked for the % hospitalized.

Edit to add your own words-

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills." I'll have to look up numbers later, but your unvaccinated 18-40 year old covid case costs several times that of a vaccinated covid case. Right or wrong, that's a driver. It's just numbers"

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Prince_Ahmed said:

---

ChrisTAMU said:

---

Vernada said:

---

Rusty GCS said:

---

I saw a job posting by Westlake Chemical recently that said vaccination was a requirement of employment

I'm guessing we might see more of that moving forward. There might be some federal incentive to these companies to require it. Otherwise, form a business sense, I don't see the reason.

---

Don't know for sure, but a lot of companies self insure. Requiring vaccination is just good risk mitigation from a $$ perspective.

---

I'd like to see actual data on this for 18-40 year olds.

---

What kind of data do you expect to see? The vaccine (pre 3rd booster) was costing our plan about $60 per participant. Testing averages $150 per test. A member with a confirmed diagnosis costs a plan a little over $2k on average, and about half our cases are people under age 40. And for someone who is hospitalized, costs average about $50k.

Now, we're waiting on OSHA regs to see how we get to implement the government requirement that employers with >100 employees either require vaccines or require weekly testing, which will cost us a fortune, plus extra people just to track all of that.

Edit to add:

It's really hard for an employer to know who is vaccinated until we start asking. When the government required vaccines be "free" that meant some providers charged employer plans for the vaccine, and some paid for them via county or state or federal assets. Your employer only knows about the first category - those who ran through the plan.

For what we know at my organization, of the people with a confirmed diagnosis, 60% were either unvaccinated, or we had no record of a vaccine claim. And 70% of the most expensive cases (those over $50k) appear to have been unvaccinated.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old.

---

I'd like to know what percentage of 18-40 year olds go to the hospital and rack up massive bills. I'll have to look up numbers later, but your unvaccinated 18-40 year old covid case costs several times that of a vaccinated covid case. Right or wrong, that's a driver. It's just numbers.

I'd also like to know how much more healthcare an obese diabetic costs a company on average annually vs a healthy 18-40 year old. That's a straw man, my friend. That said, medical plans have been addressing these kinds of things for years, as much as possible under the litany of applicable laws. Requiring care be given at centers of excellence for certain conditions, tobacco surcharges, and even BMI-based surcharges have been around for 15 years.

---

Why does an unvaccinated case cost more?

Comparing overall cost to providers among different groups is a straw man? We all know the young and healthy subsidize the old and sick.

---

Why does an unvaccinated case cost more? Good question. In short, unvaccinated people experience covid symptoms more severely. The UK has better data than the US regarding who is vaccinated, and their latest data suggests that a 40 year old is twice as likely to be infected without the vaccine, five times more likely to be hospitalized without a vaccine, and eight times more likely to die than someone who received a vaccine (study based on Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca (used in the UK, but not in the US).

Of course the young and healthy subsidize the old and sick. Just like the careful drivers subsidize reckless drivers. That's kind of how insurance works. You do everything you can to mitigate the extremes, but large pools of numbers with varying risks make it work. Otherwise you get adverse selection and it stops working. The government has a ton of regulations in place to make it somewhat available to all. That's the biggest factor keeping old and sick insurable.

---

That's not how insurance should work.

An obese, old, diabetic, heart disease, COVID super spreader should pay higher premiums amongst a similar risk pool of unhealthy individuals.

A healthy person, in comparison and by using multiple metrics, should be pooled across a similar risk group and NOT subsidizing someone else for their bad decisions.

If I were an employee, my employer would have to do better than "you're more likely to get infected without the vaccine" and "your symptoms will be lessened with the vaccine" because we know both of those statements are completely untrue.

https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people

" The researchers looked at 869 positive samples, 500 from Healthy Yolo Together and 369 from Unidos en Salud. All the Healthy Yolo Together samples were from people who were asymptomatic at the time of positive test result, and three-quarters were from unvaccinated individuals. The Unidos en Salud samples included both asymptomatic and symptomatic cases. Just over half (198) of the Unidos en Salud samples were unvaccinated."

" When they analyzed the data, the researchers found wide variations in viral load within both vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, but not between them. There was no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated, or between asymptomatic and symptomatic groups."

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

"Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus."

Ark03 said:

---

BrazosDog02 said:

---

If I were an employee, my employer would have to do better than "you're more likely to get infected without the vaccine" and "your symptoms will be lessened with the vaccine" because we know both of those statements are completely untrue.

---

Do you have a source for this? Like, an academic source other than something you saw on Facebook or a youtube video of a doctor holding some secret truth no one else is talking about?

---

No. I'm not providing a bunch of links for others. You'll need to do your own homework and arrive at a decision that you are comfortable with. There is over 30 years of information on it available with the click of a mouse. Let's be honest, Those without science backgrounds that really believe the statements In this thread generally don't have the aptitude and certainly don't have the ambition to fumble through a 20 page technical paper with small font, big words, and two columns about how vaccines for respiratory diseases work.

Thats why some people defer to folks like Dr. Fauci to interpret it for them but most pick an even more watered down variety from their favorite local media outlet.

It wasn't meant to be a debate. In keeping with the spirit of the thread I'm simply saying that I believe those statements to be absolutely false and my decision based on my own research is that no one in my family including children will under any circumstances acquiesce to this vaccine at this time and will accept fully any consequences of that decision.

In other words, I'm calling the bluff, do what you gotta do.

On top of that, I understand why corporations are doing what they are doing. Money is money and if they truly feel like that is the best way to mitigate the risk of expenditures affecting their bottom line, then they must do what they think they should do.

I'm not mad at HR. I don't fault anyone for vaccinating for no other reason than to keep their job. Im not screaming "sheep" to anyone. Everyone needs to do what they think is in their best interest. It's just unfortunate that it's mandated and some have no other choice.

texan12 said:

---

https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people

" The researchers looked at 869 positive samples, 500 from Healthy Yolo Together and 369 from Unidos en Salud. All the Healthy Yolo Together samples were from people who were asymptomatic at the time of positive test result, and three-quarters were from unvaccinated individuals. The Unidos en Salud samples included both asymptomatic and symptomatic cases. Just over half (198) of the Unidos en Salud samples were unvaccinated."

" When they analyzed the data, the researchers found wide variations in viral load within both vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, but not between them. There was no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated, or between asymptomatic and symptomatic groups."

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

"Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus."

---

This is an often misrepresented set data on social media. Yes, sick people all have virus in their system. But you're ignoring the facts that vaccinated people are less likely to get sick to start with, and that even once symptomatic, a vaccinated person is less likely to have life-threatening symptoms.

But, you are making the argument that everyone should continue to wear masks, regardless of vaccination status, since even with the vaccine people can continue to spread the virus.

nm

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If I were an employee, my employer would have to do better than "you're more likely to get infected without the vaccine" and "your symptoms will be lessened with the vaccine" because we know both of those statements are completely untrue.

---

Do you have a source for this? Like, an academic source other than something you saw on Facebook or a youtube video of a doctor holding some secret truth no one else is talking about?

---

No. I'm not providing a bunch of links for others. You'll need to do your own homework and arrive at a decision that you are comfortable with. There is over 30 years of information on it available with the click of a mouse. Let's be honest, Those without science backgrounds that really believe the statements In this thread generally don't have the aptitude and certainly don't have the ambition to fumble through a 20 page technical paper with small font, big words, and two columns about how vaccines for respiratory diseases work.

Thats why some people defer to folks like Dr. Fauci to interpret it for them but most pick an even more watered down variety from their favorite local media outlet.

It wasn't meant to be a debate. In keeping with the spirit of the thread I'm simply saying that I believe those statements to be absolutely false and my decision based on my own research is that no one in my family including children will under any circumstances acquiesce to this vaccine at this time and will accept fully any consequences of that decision.

In other words, I'm calling the bluff, do what you gotta do.

On top of that, I understand why corporations are doing what they are doing. Money is money and if they truly feel like that is the best way to mitigate the risk of expenditures affecting their bottom line, then they must do what they think they should do.

I'm not mad at HR. I don't fault anyone for vaccinating for no other reason than to keep their job. Im not screaming "sheep" to anyone. Everyone needs to do what they think is in their best interest. It's just unfortunate that it's mandated and some have no other choice.

---

My favorite is the idea of people doing their own research. Just like previous generations did for polio and TB, vaccines, right? Watching Act of Valor doesn't make someone a high-speed operator, and watching a youtube video of changing a light switch doesn't make someone an electrician, but suddenly we're all public health policy experts when it comes to vaccines.

Ark03 said:

---

texan12 said:

---

https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people

" The researchers looked at 869 positive samples, 500 from Healthy Yolo Together and 369 from Unidos en Salud. All the Healthy Yolo Together samples were from people who were asymptomatic at the time of positive test result, and three-quarters were from unvaccinated individuals. The Unidos en Salud samples included both asymptomatic and symptomatic cases. Just over half (198) of the Unidos en Salud samples were unvaccinated."

" When they analyzed the data, the researchers found wide variations in viral load within both vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, but not between them. There was no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated, or between asymptomatic and symptomatic groups."

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html

"Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus."

---

This is an often misrepresented set data on social media. Yes, sick people all have virus in their system. But you're ignoring the facts that vaccinated people are less likely to get sick to start with, and that even once symptomatic, a vaccinated person is less likely to have life-threatening symptoms.

But, you are making the argument that everyone should continue to wear masks, regardless of vaccination status, since even with the vaccine people can continue to spread the virus.

---

I agree the vaccine reduces symptoms as that was the point of it. It was never meant to be a cure. It's also easy to tell who the virus effects. Why does it have to be an all or nothing argument? And sorry you didn't like the data I presented, it's not even mine.

Nm

ORAggieFan said:

---

BrazosDog02 said:

---

Ark03 said:

---

BrazosDog02 said:

---

If I were an employee, my employer would have to do better than "you're more likely to get infected without the vaccine" and "your symptoms will be lessened with the vaccine" because we know both of those statements are completely untrue.

---

Do you have a source for this? Like, an academic source other than something you saw on Facebook or a youtube video of a doctor holding some secret truth no one else is talking about?

---

No. I'm not providing a bunch of links for others. You'll need to do your own homework and arrive at a decision that you are comfortable with. There is over 30 years of information on it available with the click of a mouse. Let's be honest, Those without science backgrounds that really believe the statements In this thread generally don't have the aptitude and certainly don't have the ambition to fumble through a 20 page technical paper with small font, big words, and two columns about how vaccines for respiratory diseases work.

Thats why some people defer to folks like Dr. Fauci to interpret it for them but most pick an even more watered down variety from their favorite local media outlet.

It wasn't meant to be a debate. In keeping with the spirit of the thread I'm simply saying that I believe those statements to be absolutely false and my decision based on my own research is that no one in my family including children will under any circumstances acquiesce to this vaccine at this time and will accept fully any consequences of that decision.

In other words, I'm calling the bluff, do what you gotta do.

On top of that, I understand why corporations are doing what they are doing. Money is money and if they truly feel like that is the best way to mitigate the risk of expenditures affecting their bottom line, then they must do what they think they should do.

I'm not mad at HR. I don't fault anyone for vaccinating for no other reason than to keep their job. Im not screaming "sheep" to anyone. Everyone needs to do what they think is in their best interest. It's just unfortunate that it's mandated and some have no other choice.

---

30 years of research on a virus a few years old....

I'm completely against mandates and for educated individual choice. You're proving that many make uneducated choices

---

Nah. She's got leather seats, PVD rims, and automatic dimming headlights but it's the same old base level pickup. Don't get roped into this idea that this is some sort of brand spanking new thing that no one has ever seen the likes of before.

But again, if you're afraid of the virus or afraid of losing your job, get stuck. It's not a big deal, right?

If you're afraid of the vaccine, roll the dice.