Ukraine land grab

11,676 Views | 166 Replies | Last: 4 mo ago by flown-the-coop
nortex97
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To be fair, France surrendered so quickly that time there wasn't much we could do. FDR did want to enter the war but really couldn't, absent Pearl Harbor.

It was WW1 we should have stayed out of, as had been the case with previous European wars including the Crimean one nearly a hundred years before. And, tying back to the modern day, that mistake of the feckless bigot democrat Wilson was partially driven by fears of the Russians. Which, oh btw, wound up helping to create the Soviet revolution:
Quote:

American entry in World War I helped produce another terrible consequence: the November 1917 Bolshevik coup in Russia. The country had been deteriorating ever since Czar Nicholas II entered the war in 1914. It led to millions of Russian casualties, drained the country's finances, generated devastating inflation, caused pervasive shortages, and discredited the government and the army.

France and Britain had to know they were playing with fire when they pressured the Russians to stay in the war so that German forces would continue to be tied up on the Eastern Front. The last thing France and Britain wanted was for Russia to make a separate peace with Germany and thereby enable the Germans to transfer forces to the Western Front. Allied pressure assured that the deterioration of Russia would continue or even accelerate.

Following the spontaneous revolution and abdication of the czar in March 1917, Wilson authorized David Francis, his ambassador to Russia, to offer the Provisional Government $325 million of credits equivalent to perhaps $3.9 billion today if Russia stayed in the war. The Provisional Government was broke, and it accepted Wilson's terms: "No fight, no loans."

Wilson was oblivious to the fact that ordinary Russians had nothing to gain from whatever happened on the Western Front, which was his sole concern. The Bolsheviks exploited deteriorating conditions brought on or aggravated by the war. They were the only ones on the Russian political scene who advocated withdrawal. Lenin's slogan was "Peace, land, and bread."

For a while, despite all of Russia's problems, the Bolsheviks weren't able to make much headway. In elections for the Constituent Assembly, they never received more than a quarter of the votes. Lenin failed three times to seize power during the summer of 1917. It wasn't until the fall of 1917, when the Russian army collapsed, that the Bolsheviks were able to seize power.

An often forgotten history, imho.
93MarineHorn
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Burpelson said:

Can you imagine FDR and Ike taking questions as to what part of France or Poland should go to Hitler.

Just after Germany's UCONDITIONAL surrender, the US and it's allies allowed the Soviet Union to take over East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria without firing a shot. We condemned 10's of millions of people to suffer under communism for 50 years even though we had nukes and they didn't. Are you ashamed?
B-1 83
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malibucharles said:

RDV-1992 said:

Based on the situation they are currently in, they will need to buy peace. That probably means land to Russia.

Edited to add: it doesn't matter if I'm happy or not. What matters is if the Ukrainians will accept the outcome.

They aren't winning without foreign boots on the ground. I'm opposed to direct US intervention. So I think that ending it somehow is the best thing for us.

What about the poor people that live it the land being given to Russia? How do they feel about becoming Russian subjects. Do they abandon their homes and flee to the West?

Have you seen the pictures? I doubt there are many civilians left in what Russia has taken.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
army01
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Logos Stick said:

Burpelson said:

If Ukraine did give land that would not be the end of it, Putin would see the weekness and continue. Putin wants the Russian dynasty of old, and he is not going to stop!!


He will stop. Russia is weak.

Russia is weak, but giving them the land they want will help them continue to grow economically. Putin should not be rewarded for this.
Moon Shadow
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Until Putin is gone, he wants the old Soviet Empire back! He will attack again, peace deal or not.
This is a continuation of FJB & the Kenyan giving p the "Green Light" to a "minor incursion"!.
Who?mikejones!
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army01 said:

Logos Stick said:

Burpelson said:

If Ukraine did give land that would not be the end of it, Putin would see the weekness and continue. Putin wants the Russian dynasty of old, and he is not going to stop!!


He will stop. Russia is weak.

Russia is weak, but giving them the land they want will help them continue to grow economically. Putin should not be rewarded for this.


Whats your solution to stopping the war?
Bondag
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rgag12 said:

Pumpkinhead said:

Zelensky and the EU are handling this diplomatically pretty smart IMO right now. acting agreeable, thankful, pushing for a trilateral meeting with Trump and Putin, flattering Trump saying that only he could have opened the door to solve this, etc…basically everything needed to get Trump excited about the prospect of winning the Nobel Peace Prize by solving a problem only he can solve.

But there is (likely) no way that Putin is ever going to meet with Zelensky. The Russians are most likely going to string this thing along for as long as possible. And so Zelensky and EU are probably banking on Trump eventually getting really frustrated with Putin again, feeling embarrassed by Putin, and lashing out finally for real with some heavy additional sanctions, etc. but that will take probably at least a few more weeks to play out.



What do more sanctions accomplish strategically? Russia has shown great resourcefulness in using China and India to outmaneuver any and all sanctions the west puts on them. The sanctions aren't fun for Russia, but they can still operate freely and how they wish.

The only reason why the west hasn't made a deal sooner was because they wanted to demonstrate to Russia that they could keep the status quo going on indefinitely. There was some thought that after Trump came in that the flow of weapons would stop and it'd be easier for Russia to grab more territory and gain better concessions from Ukraine.

To some extent the west has shown that not to be the case and now Russia may be more inclined to wiggle a little bit on the security guarantees. The territory concessions are not the issue. Anyone with a brain knows that Russia is going to acquire 95% of the territory they've captured. The only reason why Zelensky keeps spouting off publicly about not ceding anything is so he doesn't look like a ***** and stain his legacy.

Russia has a giant pipeline to Europe and more through Ukraine. If they can't get the gas out of Russia, China and India don't matter.
No Spin Ag
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flown-the-coop said:

You know, Kiev was once the capital of Russia until the Mongols sacked it and it wound up in Moscow.

So whose land is it?

"Whose land is it?"

I've got Native Americans on line Juan.
There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the later ignorance. Hippocrates
Who?mikejones!
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No Spin Ag said:

flown-the-coop said:

You know, Kiev was once the capital of Russia until the Mongols sacked it and it wound up in Moscow.

So whose land is it?

"Whose land is it?"

I've got Native Americans on line Juan.


So long as the Russians give land acknowledgement before any presentation they should be gtg!
Burpelson
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Everyone knows that if Putin gets the land he took from Ukraine he will be done, finished, finally fulfilled as a dictator, Putin plays by the rules and is a man of his word.
docb
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Putin will just make a push for Ukraine again a few years down the road. Trump will not be President in 3.5 years but Putin will still be President of Russia. He isn't done with Ukraine yet. This is just a useful pause for him.
Who?mikejones!
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Good luck with that. If this deal goes through, he will be even less successful then as he was now.
Wattson Stumjack
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We're just kicking the can down the road. But there is probably not a good solution at this point (other than putin dying and infighting in russia to take control).

We will be fighting Russia soon enough, most likely with them serving as a China proxy.
OPAG
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This situation can be easily dealt with actually.

Russia will never give Crimea back that is over done, put a fork in it. The idea of that going back to Ukraine is absurd. It would be like Texas going back to Mexico, Ain't happening.

The issue is the land controlled by Russia. That is the sticking point.

The best way and Russia would have to agree to it.

Is to do the following. Do all the terms that have been discussed.

The war is stopped, Ukraine gets security agreements but does not become a member of Nato.

Once things are stabilized. ELECTIONS ARE HELD through out the Ukraine and the Russian occupied territories (minus Crimea) These elections must be carefully guarded and monitored by both Russian and US sources (Not the CIA)

The election referendum in the occupied territories is simply do you want to be part of Ukraine or Russia.

If they majority vote that is what happens, again the elections must be carefully monitored. If they choose Russia then those who did not choose Russia should be helped to go to the Ukraine, and vice versa. Those that choose Russia should be helped to go to Russia. The occupied areas under Ukraine should be a demilitarized zone no matter who wins the election. No Ukrainian forces stationed there if the election goes the Ukrainian way, vice versa if Russia wins.



docb
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Who?mikejones! said:

Good luck with that. If this deal goes through, he will be even less successful then as he was now.

Time will tell
93MarineHorn
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OPAG said:

This situation can be easily dealt with actually.

Russia will never give Crimea back that is over done, put a fork in it. The idea of that going back to Ukraine is absurd. It would be like Texas going back to Mexico, Ain't happening.

The issue is the land controlled by Russia. That is the sticking point.

The best way and Russia would have to agree to it.

Is to do the following. Do all the terms that have been discussed.

The war is stopped, Ukraine gets security agreements but does not become a member of Nato.

Once things are stabilized. ELECTIONS ARE HELD through out the Ukraine and the Russian occupied territories (minus Crimea) These elections must be carefully guarded and monitored by both Russian and US sources (Not the CIA)

The election referendum in the occupied territories is simply do you want to be part of Ukraine or Russia.

If they majority vote that is what happens, again the elections must be carefully monitored. If they choose Russia then those who did not choose Russia should be helped to go to the Ukraine, and vice versa. Those that choose Russia should be helped to go to Russia. The occupied areas under Ukraine should be a demilitarized zone no matter who wins the election. No Ukrainian forces stationed there if the election goes the Ukrainian way, vice versa if Russia wins.





Please. Russia didn't spend the lives of countless young men and military hardware just to set up elections to dictate what happens. Putin has the upper hand as long as the West is not willing to fully engage in the fighting. Ukraine gets to choose between continuing the war and likely losing more ground or making land concessions to stop the war. What other options are realistic?

ABATTBQ11
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Who?mikejones! said:

Good luck with that. If this deal goes through, he will be even less successful then as he was now.


You mean if any defense agreement gets honored. Russia could very easily just take another bite of the apple and tell whoever is in charge of the US at that point to push them out if they dare. Threaten nukes and to make it as painful as possible. Engage in talks while they fortify positions.

Odds are they back down and Russia keeps whatever they take.
army01
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Who?mikejones! said:

army01 said:

Logos Stick said:

Burpelson said:

If Ukraine did give land that would not be the end of it, Putin would see the weekness and continue. Putin wants the Russian dynasty of old, and he is not going to stop!!


He will stop. Russia is weak.

Russia is weak, but giving them the land they want will help them continue to grow economically. Putin should not be rewarded for this.


Whats your solution to stopping the war?

We take him out back and beat the **** out of him?
El Gallo Blanco
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2040huck said:

Would you be happy to see Ukraine give up some land to get a deal?

Why do yall care so much about stuff like this? Liberals will cheer on wide open borders here and well over 10MM unvetted third worlders swarming across, but then turn around and debate the specifics of border squabbles in eastern euro trash countries across the world. It's silly.
93MarineHorn
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army01 said:

Who?mikejones! said:

army01 said:

Logos Stick said:

Burpelson said:

If Ukraine did give land that would not be the end of it, Putin would see the weekness and continue. Putin wants the Russian dynasty of old, and he is not going to stop!!


He will stop. Russia is weak.

Russia is weak, but giving them the land they want will help them continue to grow economically. Putin should not be rewarded for this.


Whats your solution to stopping the war?

We take him out back and beat the **** out of him?

You want the US to go to war with Russia? Or is this just bluster because you have no argument?
flown-the-coop
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doubledog said:

The concept of the unified Ukrainian state is relatively modern. Kievan Rus was the last "Ukrainian" state and that was in the 9th century. So whose land is it?


Actually that was the beginning of Russia, though I see you did put it in quotes.

Lots of people who are "pro most sovereign Ukraine" need to understand there is no concept of Ukrainian people throughout history, and the geographic area has been part of Russia when not occupied by other civilizations.
El Gallo Blanco
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army01 said:

Who?mikejones! said:

army01 said:

Logos Stick said:

Burpelson said:

If Ukraine did give land that would not be the end of it, Putin would see the weekness and continue. Putin wants the Russian dynasty of old, and he is not going to stop!!


He will stop. Russia is weak.

Russia is weak, but giving them the land they want will help them continue to grow economically. Putin should not be rewarded for this.


Whats your solution to stopping the war?

We take him out back and beat the **** out of him?

This is how the uhinged soccer moms on my Instagram feed sound. Congrats.
OPAG
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I think Russia is hurting more than they let on.

If these death estimates are any where close to accurate. That is unsustainable and opens them up to be pillaged by China at some point in time.

The truth is THERE IS NOT REASON WHY THE US AND RUSSIA SHOULD NOT BE ALLIES other than the Obama/Biden/Globalist/Soros et al, WOULD HATE IT.

It closes up their corrupt money and slave laundering port!

That is one of the things on the table, Russia has always wanted be part of the western/European network. Always, It has always been the west that has blocked it. Always.

Russia will do this because they will be given entrance into the during business with the US. There were some 500 Russian business men in this meeting.

It's economics. It's also helpful to know the real history about this conflict and who are the real enemies.

It ain't Russia, This idea that they want to take reform the old Soviet Union is absolute nonsense coming from the neo con/globalist
flown-the-coop
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No Spin Ag said:

flown-the-coop said:

You know, Kiev was once the capital of Russia until the Mongols sacked it and it wound up in Moscow.

So whose land is it?

"Whose land is it?"

I've got Native Americans on line Juan.


It's our land because the Indians let us take it.

And Ukraine is Russian land, and if Ukraine want to keep their current separatist state than they have to fight for it.

Do you think the United Stars belongs to the first peoples? If so, which parts and which tribes?
nortex97
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Lithuania, Poland and Romania have significant territorial/historical claims to the modern borders (in addition to Russia and Turkey). The Romanians have some logical reasons to be given consideration, part of why the globalists worked so hard not to allow a populist to be elected last year.
The Kraken
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flown-the-coop said:

No Spin Ag said:

flown-the-coop said:

You know, Kiev was once the capital of Russia until the Mongols sacked it and it wound up in Moscow.

So whose land is it?

"Whose land is it?"

I've got Native Americans on line Juan.


It's our land because the Indians let us take it.

And Ukraine is Russian land, and if Ukraine want to keep their current separatist state than they have to fight for it.

Do you think the United Stars belongs to the first peoples? If so, which parts and which tribes?


Ukraine is an internationaly recognized country and has been for over 30 years. Are the other former Soviet states just "Russian land", free for Russia to invade and claim?
flown-the-coop
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I think before folks decide which side of the Ukraine border redraw they should be on, they need a course in geopolitics and a course in the history of Russia.

Putin does NOT want to recreate the Soviet Union. He wants to reconstitute the historical Russia, which may include many parts of the Soviet Union but the distinction is important.

Most dismiss Putin as a communist loyalist and KGB man. That ignores his being picked by Boris Yeltsin to lead Russia further into the post Soviet era.

If you watched the ****er Carlson interview with Putin (the full length), Putin has an incredible detailed knowledge of the history of the Rus people that he can recall from memory. Truly impressive.

Again, he is a Russian Eastern Orthodox man much more than a Soviet man. He buys into the concept of Eastern Orthodox being the true Christian religion and of Moscow being the 3rd Rome. The Soviets tried to crush out all religion and many people assume post Soviet Russia continued their atheistic beliefs. Instead, Eastern Orthodox filled in the vacuum along with oligarchs and Putin embraced controlling it all.

It's a lot more complex than people make it and why Trumps brokering has a chance.
flown-the-coop
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The Kraken said:

flown-the-coop said:

No Spin Ag said:

flown-the-coop said:

You know, Kiev was once the capital of Russia until the Mongols sacked it and it wound up in Moscow.

So whose land is it?

"Whose land is it?"

I've got Native Americans on line Juan.


It's our land because the Indians let us take it.

And Ukraine is Russian land, and if Ukraine want to keep their current separatist state than they have to fight for it.

Do you think the United Stars belongs to the first peoples? If so, which parts and which tribes?


Ukraine is an internationaly recognized country and has been for over 30 years. Are the other former Soviet states just "Russian land", free for Russia to invade and claim?


Yes. Any country is free to invade another. They just have to be prepared for the consequences.

And who is this international authority that has been gifted this ultimate right of determining sovereignty of countries and their boundaries? The UN? NATO? G7? WHO? Interpol? He'll, let's add The Red Cross for good measure.

And is 30 years the right number? 10 years?

British created the concept of Palestine and most other Arab states out of thin air over 100 years ago. How has that worked out?
nortex97
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Good post, and I have watched the interview. But, I think you are mistaken/disagree with you regarding his religiosity.

There is a historical appeal to Moscow as the 'new/third Rome/Constantinople' to be sure which he uses domestically for his benefit as a patriot politically, but I don't see it as entirely sincere. It helps him align domestically against the cultural debauchery of 'the west' which most of us could cite innumerable examples. His personal life though (mistresses), for instance, is far from being a devout orthodox christian, to say nothing of his treatment of serfs/prisoners/soldiers etc.

I catch plenty of flack for being too 'pro-Russian' here but I don't believe his real motivation is as a Russian Orthodox christian who seeks to protect people, it's just his narrative/story he sells. I do agree as well that he's not some sort of closet communist true believer though. He's a politician, and a fairly gifted one, imho, who has studied his people/situation to make maximum leverage for himself.

When politicians of any flavor appeal to religion, I am skeptical, whether it is Bill Clinton, Obama (yes, he did on occasion do so), W, or Putin.
OPAG
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Agree with all of the above. And add in what we know about the CIA/Soros/Biden/Obama - biological labs. with the history we have a better grip on the reality here.

The good news is Trump is aware of both. The Globalist/USAID/BIDEN/CHINA/NARCO/Sex and drug trafficking/Islamic/Occultist are a much greater enemy to both the US and Russia then Russia is to thewest and their is no argument here for those who know.

Trump knows. it's just a matter of pulling this off without getting nuked by the neo con/mil narrative.
Gnome Sayin
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I say we take a piece and relocate some recent american refugees. We'll call it...."New Detroit".
flown-the-coop
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nortex97 said:

Good post, and I have watched the interview. But, I think you are mistaken/disagree with you regarding his religiosity.

There is a historical appeal to Moscow as the 'new/third Rome/Constantinople' to be sure which he uses domestically for his benefit as a patriot politically, but I don't see it as entirely sincere. It helps him align domestically against the cultural debauchery of 'the west' which most of us could cite innumerable examples. His personal life though (mistresses), for instance, is far from being a devout orthodox christian, to say nothing of his treatment of serfs/prisoners/soldiers etc.

I catch plenty of flack for being too 'pro-Russian' here but I don't believe his real motivation is as a Russian Orthodox christian who seeks to protect people, it's just his narrative/story he sells. I do agree as well that he's not some sort of closet communist true believer though. He's a politician, and a fairly gifted one, imho, who has studied his people/situation to make maximum leverage for himself.

When politicians of any flavor appeal to religion, I am skeptical, whether it is Bill Clinton, Obama (yes, he did on occasion do so), W, or Putin.

100% he is not sincere, but he is simply following the concepts Vlad the Great, Ivan the Great and various other rules of the Rus people. Recall Vladimir the Great, in the City of Kiev, first made Orthodox Christianity the "national" religion in order to subjugate the diverse populations, ethnicities and "religions" of the people he intended to govern.

The crazy Ivans that followed centuries later used Eastern Orthodox to their political advantage both internally to control the people and externally particularly following the fall of Constantinople to make Moscow the center of the Eastern Orthodox, hence the Third Rome concept.

My contention is simply that Putin, being well versed in this history, will continue to use religion to unify his power and I also suspect it will play a role in whatever secession plan he has.

Hell, would not surprise me if at some point Putin does not recognize himself as Tsar.

Couldn't agree more. Unless at a solemn or religious ceremony, the efforts always seem planned - even with Trump.
The Kraken
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flown-the-coop said:

The Kraken said:

flown-the-coop said:

No Spin Ag said:

flown-the-coop said:

You know, Kiev was once the capital of Russia until the Mongols sacked it and it wound up in Moscow.

So whose land is it?

"Whose land is it?"

I've got Native Americans on line Juan.


It's our land because the Indians let us take it.

And Ukraine is Russian land, and if Ukraine want to keep their current separatist state than they have to fight for it.

Do you think the United Stars belongs to the first peoples? If so, which parts and which tribes?


Ukraine is an internationaly recognized country and has been for over 30 years. Are the other former Soviet states just "Russian land", free for Russia to invade and claim?


Yes. Any country is free to invade another. They just have to be prepared for the consequences.

And who is this international authority that has been gifted this ultimate right of determining sovereignty of countries and their boundaries? The UN? NATO? G7? WHO? Interpol? He'll, let's add The Red Cross for good measure.

And is 30 years the right number? 10 years?

British created the concept of Palestine and most other Arab states out of thin air over 100 years ago. How has that worked out?


Umm...Russia recognized their own independence as well as Ukraine and Belarus way back in 1991. The borders are the same as the they were when they were all states of the Soviet Union. It would be the same as if the US agreed to split up and all 50 states became independent countries.

LMCane
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2040huck said:

Old Army Ghost said:

OP The only other option since ukraine cant beat russia is we go to war with russia

do you want to fight russia for ukraine?

No I wouldnt have wanted to fight Germany for Poland or the Czechs either.

the USA did not fight Germany for Poland or the Czechs.
BigRobSA
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Queso1 said:



Again no me care-o.


I understood this part.

And I agree-o.
 
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