Would you be happy to see Ukraine give up some land to get a deal?

I don't care.

Based on the situation they are currently in, they will need to buy peace. That probably means land to Russia.

Edited to add: it doesn't matter if I'm happy or not. What matters is if the Ukrainians will accept the outcome.

They aren't winning without foreign boots on the ground. I'm opposed to direct US intervention. So I think that ending it somehow is the best thing for us.

OP The only other option since ukraine cant beat russia is we go to war with russia

do you want to fight russia for ukraine?

Crimea is effectively Russian anyway. Give their people the option to leave to Ukraine.

I bet very few leave. Nothing really changes in their lives.

Old Army Ghost said:

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OP The only other option since ukraine cant beat russia is we go to war with russia

do you want to fight russia for ukraine?

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No I wouldnt have wanted to fight Germany for Poland or the Czechs either.

Old Army Ghost said:

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OP The only other option since ukraine cant beat russia is we go to war with russia

do you want to fight russia for ukraine?

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Exactly. I don't.

I wouldn't be happy about it, but it's a reality that is going to have to occur in order to end the war, and that would be something to celebrate.

The handwriting is on the wall. They need to make the deal, get it over with, save lives, and start rebuilding.

And what's to say that Russia will not try to get more land in the future

2040huck said:

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Old Army Ghost said:

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OP The only other option since ukraine cant beat russia is we go to war with russia

do you want to fight russia for ukraine?

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No I wouldnt have wanted to fight Germany for Poland or the Czechs either.

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And if Germany had nuclear weapons at the time, we probably wouldn't have fought them.

TexasAggie73 said:

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And what's to say that Russia will not try to get more land in the future

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uh have you not paid any attention at all?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/us-forces-protect-ukraine-part-214010033.html

Ellis Wyatt said:

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I don't care.

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End of thread. I'd love for Ukrainians and Russians get what they want. But in the end…I don't care.

What resources are there?

Queso1 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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I don't care.

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End of thread. I'd love for Ukrainians and Russians get what they want. But in the end…I don't care.

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I'd love for the Russians to get what they deserve.

2040huck said:

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Would you be happy to see Ukraine give up some land to get a deal?

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That is the only way to end the war. It worked out for Finland during the Winter War. Yes, the Fins literally kicked the Soviets asses (one sniper killed over 500 Russian Soldiers) however, Russia is like a steam roller and they knew that eventually, they would lose.

Ukraine has a lot of rebuilding to do.

torrid said:

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Queso1 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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I don't care.

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End of thread. I'd love for Ukrainians and Russians get what they want. But in the end…I don't care.

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I'd love for the Russians to get what they deserve.

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Again no me care-o. It's a complicated issue and I'm not educated on it enough to attempt persuading others. It's much more complex than we are sold.

Old Army Ghost said:

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TexasAggie73 said:

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And what's to say that Russia will not try to get more land in the future

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uh have you not paid any attention at all?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/us-forces-protect-ukraine-part-214010033.html

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Just because Trump promised something today, doesn't meant the promise will be kept in the future. That's what governments do, promise one thing and do something else later.

2040huck said:

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Would you be happy to see Ukraine give up some land to get a deal?

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Hell no. But they have lost ground. And life is not fair. War is the worst.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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I don't care.

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Why should you? It's only the pivot of history that we're talking about here -- y'know, the only thing that could overcome the US's invincibility glitch.

Now, you could argue that since 2022 we've done enough to deplete Russia to a point of balance with European powers. But that's far from a settled question for now.

My 2c is that we need to start positioning both Russia and ourselves against China. We need a graceful rundown of China as their demography collapses & our onshoring/reshoring gets underway. That's also critical to our fortunes here, given the large share of production that China has been allowed to gobble up...

But hey. You have been influenced to the point that you don't care what happens in the handful of power centers around the world that could meaningfully disrupt our way of life. Good for you.

You know, Kiev was once the capital of Russia until the Mongols sacked it and it wound up in Moscow.

So whose land is it?

TexasAggie73 said:

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Old Army Ghost said:

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TexasAggie73 said:

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And what's to say that Russia will not try to get more land in the future

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uh have you not paid any attention at all?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/us-forces-protect-ukraine-part-214010033.html

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Just because Trump promised something today, doesn't meant the promise will be kept in the future. That's what governments do, promise one thing and do something else later.

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Yeah, so what? Really. Take peace now and save hundreds of thousands of people's lives. You should go fight for Ukraine with all of you sanctimony.

TexasAggie73 said:

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And what's to say that Russia will not try to get more land in the future

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Nothing. And they probably will.

History belongs to the strong, and sometimes the strong are *******s.

Fatboy Thaddeus said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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I don't care.

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Why should you? It's only the pivot of history that we're talking about here -- y'know, the only thing that could overcome the US's invincibility glitch.

Now, you could argue that since 2022 we've done enough to deplete Russia to a point of balance with European powers. But that's far from a settled question for now.

My 2c is that we need to start positioning both Russia and ourselves against China. We need a graceful rundown of China as their demography collapses & our onshoring/reshoring gets underway. That's also critical to our fortunes here, given the large share of production that China has been allowed to gobble up...

But hey. You have been influenced to the point that you don't care what happens in the handful of power centers around the world that could meaningfully disrupt our way of life. Good for you.

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Trump admin actually pursued this early in these negotiations but didn't seem to go anywhere. Wish it had because that's the best long-term outcome. Really unfortunate that Russia is not an ally and should have been post USSR.

2040huck said:

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Would you be happy to see Ukraine give up some land to get a deal?

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I mean the other option is that the fight for a few more years, have a million or so more dead bodies, and make the Donbus into the Red Zone like they have in France. Oh, and Russia probably still will control it.

2040huck said:

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Would you be happy to see Ukraine give up some land to get a deal?

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Sure. Obama gave them Crimea. What's a bit more land?!

If Ukraine did give land that would not be the end of it, Putin would see the weekness and continue. Putin wants the Russian dynasty of old, and he is not going to stop!!

Burpelson said:

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If Ukraine did give land that would not be the end of it, Putin would see the weekness and continue. Putin wants the Russian dynasty of old, and he is not going to stop!!

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He will stop. Russia is weak.

Ukraine will ultimately lose their war with Russia if other nations do not sacrifice their soldiers on Ukranian ground.

Thats is the bottom line.

2040huck said:

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Would you be happy to see Ukraine give up some land to get a deal?

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If it brings peace for decades ahead, then yes. What do you think?

Burpelson said:

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If Ukraine did give land that would not be the end of it, Putin would see the weekness and continue. Putin wants the Russian dynasty of old, and he is not going to stop!!

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If that's the case then he will have to invade an actual NATO member state at some point. And then we are obligated to respond with boots on the ground and planes in the sky and find out for certain if the alliance holds together or not.

So, you know, good thing Trump convinced the rest of them to start funding their militaries.

Yeah only way this ends is with land concessions. Russia will just keep throwing bodies at the problem until they get what they want. Ukraine doesn't have that luxury. They have exposed Russia as a paper tiger in my eyes though. Without a nuke threat Russia could be wiped off the face of the earth by any modern military.

If Ukraine does not want to give up the land, they should keep fighting.

If they want peace now, give up the land. but demand NATO admission. Russia may not allow.

However, one solution to keep peace, but cost them some more land is let Russia keep the land, make the USA take a sliver of land adjacent to all Russia land in Ukraine. If USA really wants their natural resources, make USA take the land. That will keep Russia from attacking them in the future. Would piss of Russians, but open us to additional exposure. Then we threaten to put nukes on that sliver of land.

Ukraine should have never given up their Soviet nukes after the Soviet collapse. They were stupid and could have avoided this war. Russia played the long game on that scenario and won.

Ukraine would have sold those nukes to the highest bidder as soon as times got tough.

People like to underestimate just how ingrained corruption is in their country.

It's the reason they had to give up the nukes. It's the reason we only give them blankets and some weapons. If you gave Z a nuke tomorrow he would lob it at Moscow or sell it to Iran. It would never be used to "keep the peace".

HDeathstar said:

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If Ukraine does not want to give up the land, they should keep fighting.

If they want peace now, give up the land. but demand NATO admission. Russia may not allow.

However, one solution to keep peace, but cost them some more land is let Russia keep the land, make the USA take a sliver of land adjacent to all Russia land in Ukraine. If USA really wants their natural resources, make USA take the land. That will keep Russia from attacking them in the future. Would piss of Russians, but open us to additional exposure. Then we threaten to put nukes on that sliver of land.

Ukraine should have never given up their Soviet nukes after the Soviet collapse. They were stupid and could have avoided this war. Russia played the long game on that scenario and won.

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This.... Now they need to decide how big their nerves are and consider dropping a big one where it hurts then see how people respoond. So Ukraine has been on the defensive. At some point, Europe is going to have to decide what it's worth to them... They can all start by ceasing to buy oil from Russia.

TexasAggie73 said:

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And what's to say that Russia will not try to get more land in the future

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Or the US, or Germany, or China, or Japan, or Iran, or insert nation here. Weird argument. Keep fighting a war you can't win without massive external help, which you can't/won't get, or get the most favorable terms possible and rebuild and rearm?

Because the flat out truth is the US is not going to war with Russia to get back the land bridge to Crimea or the Donbas. As little I think of the Russians, it would not be a fun time and the risks are insane. Let alone getting our people as a whole to go for it. Not happening. The Europeans might be able to field a division or two for a few weeks or maybe a few months but without our intervention... couldn't sustain it.

So, what's to be gained? What's to be lost? The Ukes are out of manpower. The Russians small group tactics have kind of caught up, but no one is going to make huge progress. So, getting this finished at the best terms possible seems to be the, distasteful, order of the day.