More bad news for college grads

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infinity ag
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aggie93 said:

Stone Choir said:

aggie93 said:

agsalaska said:

cmag said:

I can't imagine coming out of college into the workforce today. All these kids are going to be competing against AI. I'm glad I'm on the back hill slide of my career, and trying to figure out wtf to steer my kids towards before they hit college age. Terrified for them.

No way.

There is more money to be made than ever before. You just have to make an expectations adjustment. We used to go to college and work our way up the ranks. Hell my degree is in POLS and I have spent most of my career in retail management. You could get a degree in anything and just enter the workforce one step ahead. That's over. But tradesmen make a LOT more money today than ever before. I have a buddy that is an electrician. He has about 15 guys working for him and he has made millions. He makes more money than our CEO and shaves maybe once a week.

Plumber or electrician is where it's at. More specifically, blue collar with leadership skills.

The key is adjusting that is for sure. My eldest graduates from A&M Galveston next month and he did Maritime Transportation. He had to give up his Summers to do Sea Terms and his career will mean he's gone half the time. He's got multiple 6 figure offers he is deciding between and tremendous job security for the forseeable future. Unless AI gets to the point where ships are completely unmanned with no humans aboard he's going to do very well for a very long time. While he was in HS he also got welding certified and he has a lot of skills. He worked part time on charter fishing vessels as well on the weekends.

Other son graduated from HS and has a full ride to study Biomedical Engineering. He worked 2 Summers as an Auto Mechanic (started off sweeping the shop and doing any grunt job they could dream up). He learned how to operate just about any shop tool in robotics and landed an internship this Summer working for a Med Device company working on their CNC mill, routers, and laser cutters. He also makes some side money using his drone for construction companies helping them to survey sites.

There are tons of small business endeavors kids can get into (and I'm not even talking about all the easy money from social media and influencers). You just have to hustle and work. There is so much information out there that's easily available to people now as well about how to do just about anything. It's not on a sliver platter but the opportunities are there.

Problem is that the natural tendency of people is to look for easy buttons. They want to be able to study what they want, work when and where they want, not bother saving or investing, not take risks, and yet they want all the benefits of those who do those things. That's not new to this generation btw, the difference is the information age has made it easier to succeed and also easier to be lazy more than ever. If you follow the herd and don't take responsibility for your choices though it's not likely going to turn out well for you though. You can be a sheep or a wolf, it's just most people make that choice by default.


The issue is not the jobs, it's obtaining a job. HR job systems for online applications are utterly broken and every job is inundated with 200 AI applications in 5 minutes after it is posted. It's a black hole nowadays. These kids aren't working not because they don't want to work but because they literally cannot find a job, at all. There are thousands of stories of people sending out 500+ applications and receiving zero responses.

It's about adjustments. If you just apply for jobs and expect to get results it is tough if you are experienced much less being one of the volumes of new college grads that look so similar. You have to network and use tools like LinkedIn to connect directly with hiring managers. Get out of your comfort zone. Think creatively. Smaller companies are also much more likely to give you a shot, especially if you reach out directly to the hiring manager or owner and show initiative. If you are relying on recruiters and HR to see how you are special among hundred of applicants while they are working on a dozen jobs don't be surprised when you get lost in the shuffle.

If you just want to sit back and send resumes to Fortune 500 companies when you don't have experience you might as well play the lottery. Both my boys got internships and jobs with a little hustle and creativity. My youngest has an internship out of HS that most college juniors would kill for and he never sent a resume to apply for a job in a traditional fashion, he actually had multiple great jobs to choose from. He spent time on his resume. He spent time on his LinkedIn profile. He spent time making connections. He spent time reaching out to anyone he thought might be helpful.

I talk to so many college kids I try and help and new grads who just won't do that. They start to but they won't follow through. It's just so much easier to apply and pray and then say they can't get a job. Then if you tell them to actually call on a business directly they are terrified. The reality is that if they are willing to put themselves out there and show they can handle a bit of rejection it is likely to pay off. It's not easy but it's there. Instead I hear about whining that companies don't get back to them on their applications as if that is going to help things, take ownership and try different paths or follow up don't sit around being upset that a company you spent 3 minutes sending a resume to isn't getting back to you with an auto reject email.

In their defense, most kids aren't taught any of this and instead get doom and gloom from social media or bad advice on how to look for a job with unrealistic expectations and no understanding of how the business world works.


It's fashionable these days to post "don't just apply to jobs, go network! Don't just expect to get offers by sitting around, connect with managers!" on LinkedIn without given any idea how to go about doing it. People don't like some stranger trying to "network" with them.

My son completed his 3rd of B.S in Computer Science. He is doing not 1 but two internships, both at name brand companies everyone has heard of. One is onsite, one is remote. He is managing them both, he is constantly working. He is working even right now, Sunday afternoon to complete stuff. He had an offer from last year's internship employer but he declined it. He did two internships last year as well, both name brand companies - one onsite, one remote.


How did he get those jobs? Simply by applying on LinkedIn and corporate website.
No contacts, no "networking", no cold calls. He just applied on the company sites, many companies called, some ghosted, he interviewed with many companies, got many rejects, got some offers, picked 2 and rejected the others.

Networking is overrated. People like to say it to seem intellectual.This is another lie to gaslight Americans while they ship jobs to India. Many just repeat the lie hoping to sound smart and sagely. When the tide turns and there are plenty of jobs, the same companies will come to you begging to accept.
infinity ag
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Tramp96 said:

Learn to plumb or weld.

Or go to truck driving school. It would be nice to up the quality of those in the transportation industry we have to share the roads with.


You Sir have low standards.

Ching Chong's son gets a 100M paycheck and you are telling our kids to weld and plumb and clean sewage.
Deputy Travis Junior
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If you want to double your output, then why don't you hire another 50 junior developers + 20 senior developers?

Because AI is cheaper and can perform a lot of tasks that allow a smaller group to do more.

This is called replacing jobs. You're making the case for job replacement but you refuse to call it that.
Double Oaked
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Deputy Travis Junior said:

If you want to double your output, then why don't you hire another 50 junior developers + 20 senior developers?

Because AI is cheaper and can perform a lot of tasks that allow a smaller group to do more.

This is called replacing jobs. You're making the case for job replacement but you refuse to call it that.

Oh boy...

Accelerating an existing staff by leveraging AI (with no change in headcount) is not the same as replacing jobs.

Now if I fired half of my team in order to cut costs and then used AI agents to achieve the same level of output, that would be replacing jobs. That is not happening. That is what I've been trying to explain to you.

Burpelson
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The people yelling to work harder and smarter are just in denial and want desperately for things to be like it was, we need to move towards protections against machines, but if you put this to a TECH CEO he would say we do not need that, it would only hurt AI and make China stronger, HA!!!!
Tom Fox
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infinity ag said:

Tramp96 said:

Learn to plumb or weld.

Or go to truck driving school. It would be nice to up the quality of those in the transportation industry we have to share the roads with.


You Sir have low standards.

Ching Chong's son gets a 100M paycheck and you are telling our kids to weld and plumb and clean sewage.

You repeatedly say that H1Bs are driving down wages for Americans wanting to enter the tech industry and then say that those immigrants are going to be making big bucks in those same jobs that you just said did not pay enough to attract Americans.

Which is it? If it is that they are now low paying slave wages in tech, then entering the trades is sound advice. If it is those immigrants are going to be making big bucks in tech while Americans are slaving away in the trades, then the American applicants should be talented enough to beat out the immigrants.

Please pick a lane.
Logos Stick
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Double Oaked said:

Deputy Travis Junior said:

If you want to double your output, then why don't you hire another 50 junior developers + 20 senior developers?

Because AI is cheaper and can perform a lot of tasks that allow a smaller group to do more.

This is called replacing jobs. You're making the case for job replacement but you refuse to call it that.

Oh boy...

Accelerating an existing staff by leveraging AI (with no change in headcount) is not the same as replacing jobs.

Now if I fired half of my team in order to cut costs and then used AI agents to achieve the same level of output, that would be replacing jobs. That is not happening. That is what I've been trying to explain to you.




It is absolutely replacing jobs. Future jobs at your company and current/future jobs at companies that have intelligent CTOs and are actually using it.

Based on your posts, I'm surprised your CTO doesn't force you to write in assembly language and use the vi editor.

Software isn't a consumable product like a soda that must be continually manufactured to meet demand. Instead, it follows a life cycle and matures over time. As productivity improves, the software becomes more stable faster, bugs are resolved, and features reach completion. This natural progression reduces the need for large engineering teams. AI facilitates that process. Presto, fewer jobs overall.
Double Oaked
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Logos Stick said:

Double Oaked said:

Deputy Travis Junior said:

If you want to double your output, then why don't you hire another 50 junior developers + 20 senior developers?

Because AI is cheaper and can perform a lot of tasks that allow a smaller group to do more.

This is called replacing jobs. You're making the case for job replacement but you refuse to call it that.

Oh boy...

Accelerating an existing staff by leveraging AI (with no change in headcount) is not the same as replacing jobs.

Now if I fired half of my team in order to cut costs and then used AI agents to achieve the same level of output, that would be replacing jobs. That is not happening. That is what I've been trying to explain to you.




It is absolutely replacing jobs. Future jobs at your company and current/future jobs at companies that have intelligent CTOs and are actually using it.

Based on your posts, I'm surprised your CTO doesn't force you to write in assembly language and use the vi editor.

Software isn't a consumable product like a soda that must be continually manufactured to meet demand. Instead, it follows a life cycle and matures over time. As productivity improves, the software becomes more stable faster, bugs are resolved, and features reach completion. This natural progression reduces the need for large engineering teams. AI facilitates that process. Presto, fewer jobs overall.


Company headcount's are supposed to grow indefinitely? I didn't realize that.

Again, use AI tools to help. Not replace developers.

Software becomes more stable over time, yes. Eventually a product and version of code goes EOL. But, new versions are released. New features are constantly developed. New bugs are constantly found. New hardware is developed with new chips that require new drivers to be built, which requires new software.
fulshearAg96
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Logos Stick said:

Double Oaked said:

Deputy Travis Junior said:

If you want to double your output, then why don't you hire another 50 junior developers + 20 senior developers?

Because AI is cheaper and can perform a lot of tasks that allow a smaller group to do more.

This is called replacing jobs. You're making the case for job replacement but you refuse to call it that.

Oh boy...

Accelerating an existing staff by leveraging AI (with no change in headcount) is not the same as replacing jobs.

Now if I fired half of my team in order to cut costs and then used AI agents to achieve the same level of output, that would be replacing jobs. That is not happening. That is what I've been trying to explain to you.




It is absolutely replacing jobs. Future jobs at your company and current/future jobs at companies that have intelligent CTOs and are actually using it.

Based on your posts, I'm surprised your CTO doesn't force you to write in assembly language and use the vi editor.

Software isn't a consumable product like a soda that must be continually manufactured to meet demand. Instead, it follows a life cycle and matures over time. As productivity improves, the software becomes more stable faster, bugs are resolved, and features reach completion. This natural progression reduces the need for large engineering teams. AI facilitates that process. Presto, fewer jobs overall.

AI + Automation is a very attractive option for product teams looking to control headcount... I.e. meet cost/profit targets. This is relevant in energy with GTM products... product teams are not getting cut but they are getting leaner based on tech adoption. So I guess your both kind of right...
Deputy Travis Junior
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Double Oaked said:

Deputy Travis Junior said:

If you want to double your output, then why don't you hire another 50 junior developers + 20 senior developers?

Because AI is cheaper and can perform a lot of tasks that allow a smaller group to do more.

This is called replacing jobs. You're making the case for job replacement but you refuse to call it that.

Oh boy...

Accelerating an existing staff by leveraging AI (with no change in headcount) is not the same as replacing jobs.

Now if I fired half of my team in order to cut costs and then used AI agents to achieve the same level of output, that would be replacing jobs. That is not happening. That is what I've been trying to explain to you.




In the past, you would have been forced to generate all of that new output by hiring new employees. Now you're doing it with AI. You're saying that this isn't killing jobs because you haven't called anybody into your office and said "GTFO, you're fired," but if you double your output without hiring a single person (and meta does it and Microsoft does it and my company does it), then that's killing jobs because all those entry level fresh college grads aren't getting a shot. (And I get that you won't double production without hiring a single me person, but you get the point. You're doing it with far fewer hires.)

The entire subject of this thread is AI is stealing entry level jobs so focusing on the firing practices of a company with respect to people already employed there is missing the mark.
Double Oaked
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Deputy Travis Junior said:

Double Oaked said:

Deputy Travis Junior said:

If you want to double your output, then why don't you hire another 50 junior developers + 20 senior developers?

Because AI is cheaper and can perform a lot of tasks that allow a smaller group to do more.

This is called replacing jobs. You're making the case for job replacement but you refuse to call it that.

Oh boy...

Accelerating an existing staff by leveraging AI (with no change in headcount) is not the same as replacing jobs.

Now if I fired half of my team in order to cut costs and then used AI agents to achieve the same level of output, that would be replacing jobs. That is not happening. That is what I've been trying to explain to you.




In the past, you would have been forced to generate all of that new output by hiring new employees. Now you're doing it with AI. You're saying that this isn't killing jobs because you haven't called anybody into your office and said "GTFO, you're fired," but if you double your output without hiring a single person (and meta does it and Microsoft does it and my company does it), then that's killing jobs because all those entry level fresh college grads aren't getting a shot. (And I get that you won't double production without hiring a single me person, but you get the point. You're doing it with far fewer hires.)

The entire subject of this thread is AI is stealing entry level jobs so focusing on the firing practices of a company with respect to people already employed there is missing the mark.



AI will absolutely replace jobs and entire sectors of the economy. That is inevitable. My point was only on developers. And only in the immediate to near term. The reality is no one knows what AGI (real AI) will be capable of because it doesn't exist, and won't for a while.

The internet killed entry level jobs. The assembly line killed entry level jobs. Robotics is killing jobs. But more people than ever are working today, even after those things happened. I'm not buying into the doom pr0n of AI taking over the world.

H1b abuse is a real problem and needs to be dealt with. Unchecked "capitalism" with the government picking winners and losers is a problem. We have a lot of problems brewing with a shrinking middle class, a declining and aging population, and an underperforming education system.

AI will help to level the playing field for the people that adopt it and learn to use it wisely. It's imperative that the USA wins the AI arms race, and puts policy in place to support it with abundant energy and manufacturing capacity.

These efforts will lead to more jobs being created. Jobs that don't exist today.

Automate what you can to keep costs to consumers down. Accelerate what you can to increase productivity/output. If there are 150M+ jobs today, I am betting there will still be 150M+ jobs available in 10 years.

Treat AI as a tool that can help and learn how to use it. Don't throw up your hands and say it needs to be stopped/slowed down/impeded.

Signing off.
Lathspell
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infinity ag said:

Networking is overrated. People like to say it to seem intellectual.This is another lie to gaslight Americans while they ship jobs to India. Many just repeat the lie hoping to sound smart and sagely. When the tide turns and there are plenty of jobs, the same companies will come to you begging to accept.

Wow... you must not actually work in any kind of business development at all. Networking is by far the best way to generate business, right behind referrals from existing customers. For finding a job, it is a great way to get in the door somewhere.

That's great your son got response on his application. I did too from a couple of companies after college, but the job I eventually took was one I found through the Aggie network.

I think, when you say "networking", you're thinking of a happy hour where you show up and hand your card to strangers. That is just an excuse to go out drinking after work and is barely "networking".
Over_ed
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infinity ag said:

agsalaska said:

cmag said:

I can't imagine coming out of college into the workforce today. All these kids are going to be competing against AI. I'm glad I'm on the back hill slide of my career, and trying to figure out wtf to steer my kids towards before they hit college age. Terrified for them.

No way.

There is more money to be made than ever before. You just have to make an expectations adjustment. We used to go to college and work our way up the ranks. Hell my degree is in POLS and I have spent most of my career in retail management. You could get a degree in anything and just enter the workforce one step ahead. That's over. But tradesmen make a LOT more money today than ever before. I have a buddy that is an electrician. He has about 15 guys working for him and he has made millions. He makes more money than our CEO and shaves maybe once a week.

Plumber or electrician is where it's at. More specifically, blue collar with leadership skills.


Your kid and my kid become electricians and plumbers and sewage guys and construction guys in our own country.

Vijay from India and Ching Chong from China sends their kids here to do high paying tech work and make $100M salaries.

Nice.

This is Boomer logic which is why we are here as a country.

Really? The youngest Boomer is what, 61? Most corporate boomers are retired, many for 15 - 20 years. The leadership in most orgs are X-ers, and tech usually skews younger.

BTW, if I were a CEO, I might be doing the same -- AI, probably not offshoring. A business's job is to make profit, and if other companies are doing AI, there is a lot of pressure to do the same to be competitive and more importantly to grow in the future.

The same as industrial production replaced piece-work in the Industrial Revolution. Now days, there is little heartburn over those many lives ruined by industrialization, right?

AI is likely to only get better, and robots will allow AI to replace people in many other settings.







YouBet
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I think you are arguing semantics and glossing over the fact that because of the Acceleration you pointed out this means your future FTE count will be lower than it would have been. Can we measure what we don't what we would have done? No.

But common sense says that with this acceleration you are seeing that leaders are going to naturally ask the obvious question of: "Well, if we've gotten all of these efficiencies at the lower levels with AI do we really need to replace junior developers that attrit or leave, or get fired, etc? Anyone that has ever worked in corporate America has asked this question when it comes to replacing headcount. If no one in your organization is asking this question after the significant gains in efficiency you are seeing then you have incompetent, negligent leaders. (This assumes current state throughput but even if it doesn't you are not hiring as many people as you would have).

In other words, it's absolutely replacing jobs right now by removing planned headcount and/or letting positions go dormant or die on the vine.

Now, I also absolutely agree we don't yet know the final outcome of AI and I'm also not really even advocating for AI. I'm actually not a huge fan of it. The older i get the more Luddite I become...lol....which is not something I ever expected to be.
Over_ed
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YouBet said:

...

Now, I also absolutely agree we don't yet know the final outcome of AI and I'm also not really even advocating for AI. I'm actually not a huge fan of it. The older i get the more Luddite I become...lol....which is not something I ever expected to be.

When I was teaching and not in industry, in my first MBA courses I always asked students for a paragraph on Luddism on the first exam. Sitting here and blanked on the word, your comment was right on time. Getting older sucks. Thanks!
aggie93
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infinity ag said:

aggie93 said:

Stone Choir said:

aggie93 said:

agsalaska said:

cmag said:

I can't imagine coming out of college into the workforce today. All these kids are going to be competing against AI. I'm glad I'm on the back hill slide of my career, and trying to figure out wtf to steer my kids towards before they hit college age. Terrified for them.

No way.

There is more money to be made than ever before. You just have to make an expectations adjustment. We used to go to college and work our way up the ranks. Hell my degree is in POLS and I have spent most of my career in retail management. You could get a degree in anything and just enter the workforce one step ahead. That's over. But tradesmen make a LOT more money today than ever before. I have a buddy that is an electrician. He has about 15 guys working for him and he has made millions. He makes more money than our CEO and shaves maybe once a week.

Plumber or electrician is where it's at. More specifically, blue collar with leadership skills.

The key is adjusting that is for sure. My eldest graduates from A&M Galveston next month and he did Maritime Transportation. He had to give up his Summers to do Sea Terms and his career will mean he's gone half the time. He's got multiple 6 figure offers he is deciding between and tremendous job security for the forseeable future. Unless AI gets to the point where ships are completely unmanned with no humans aboard he's going to do very well for a very long time. While he was in HS he also got welding certified and he has a lot of skills. He worked part time on charter fishing vessels as well on the weekends.

Other son graduated from HS and has a full ride to study Biomedical Engineering. He worked 2 Summers as an Auto Mechanic (started off sweeping the shop and doing any grunt job they could dream up). He learned how to operate just about any shop tool in robotics and landed an internship this Summer working for a Med Device company working on their CNC mill, routers, and laser cutters. He also makes some side money using his drone for construction companies helping them to survey sites.

There are tons of small business endeavors kids can get into (and I'm not even talking about all the easy money from social media and influencers). You just have to hustle and work. There is so much information out there that's easily available to people now as well about how to do just about anything. It's not on a sliver platter but the opportunities are there.

Problem is that the natural tendency of people is to look for easy buttons. They want to be able to study what they want, work when and where they want, not bother saving or investing, not take risks, and yet they want all the benefits of those who do those things. That's not new to this generation btw, the difference is the information age has made it easier to succeed and also easier to be lazy more than ever. If you follow the herd and don't take responsibility for your choices though it's not likely going to turn out well for you though. You can be a sheep or a wolf, it's just most people make that choice by default.


The issue is not the jobs, it's obtaining a job. HR job systems for online applications are utterly broken and every job is inundated with 200 AI applications in 5 minutes after it is posted. It's a black hole nowadays. These kids aren't working not because they don't want to work but because they literally cannot find a job, at all. There are thousands of stories of people sending out 500+ applications and receiving zero responses.

It's about adjustments. If you just apply for jobs and expect to get results it is tough if you are experienced much less being one of the volumes of new college grads that look so similar. You have to network and use tools like LinkedIn to connect directly with hiring managers. Get out of your comfort zone. Think creatively. Smaller companies are also much more likely to give you a shot, especially if you reach out directly to the hiring manager or owner and show initiative. If you are relying on recruiters and HR to see how you are special among hundred of applicants while they are working on a dozen jobs don't be surprised when you get lost in the shuffle.

If you just want to sit back and send resumes to Fortune 500 companies when you don't have experience you might as well play the lottery. Both my boys got internships and jobs with a little hustle and creativity. My youngest has an internship out of HS that most college juniors would kill for and he never sent a resume to apply for a job in a traditional fashion, he actually had multiple great jobs to choose from. He spent time on his resume. He spent time on his LinkedIn profile. He spent time making connections. He spent time reaching out to anyone he thought might be helpful.

I talk to so many college kids I try and help and new grads who just won't do that. They start to but they won't follow through. It's just so much easier to apply and pray and then say they can't get a job. Then if you tell them to actually call on a business directly they are terrified. The reality is that if they are willing to put themselves out there and show they can handle a bit of rejection it is likely to pay off. It's not easy but it's there. Instead I hear about whining that companies don't get back to them on their applications as if that is going to help things, take ownership and try different paths or follow up don't sit around being upset that a company you spent 3 minutes sending a resume to isn't getting back to you with an auto reject email.

In their defense, most kids aren't taught any of this and instead get doom and gloom from social media or bad advice on how to look for a job with unrealistic expectations and no understanding of how the business world works.


It's fashionable these days to post "don't just apply to jobs, go network! Don't just expect to get offers by sitting around, connect with managers!" on LinkedIn without given any idea how to go about doing it. People don't like some stranger trying to "network" with them.

My son completed his 3rd of B.S in Computer Science. He is doing not 1 but two internships, both at name brand companies everyone has heard of. One is onsite, one is remote. He is managing them both, he is constantly working. He is working even right now, Sunday afternoon to complete stuff. He had an offer from last year's internship employer but he declined it. He did two internships last year as well, both name brand companies - one onsite, one remote.


How did he get those jobs? Simply by applying on LinkedIn and corporate website.
No contacts, no "networking", no cold calls. He just applied on the company sites, many companies called, some ghosted, he interviewed with many companies, got many rejects, got some offers, picked 2 and rejected the others.

Networking is overrated. People like to say it to seem intellectual.This is another lie to gaslight Americans while they ship jobs to India. Many just repeat the lie hoping to sound smart and sagely. When the tide turns and there are plenty of jobs, the same companies will come to you begging to accept.

Congrats to your son for being able to do things the traditional route, that's great. My point though is about casting a wide net. I mean some people can be successful without trying to reach out and build a network and that's great, you better have some really strong qualifications to stand out though and you have to be like your son and be really aggressive in applying early and often. If he did 2 internships that is certainly the right direction.

CS is in the midst of a significant readjustment because it has become such a popular major and seen as the ticket to great jobs and money by so many. AI along with the immigration issue has shifted that. There are those who are making more than ever in the field and there are a lot of others who can't get a job. A lot of companies are now able to do things with 10 programmers when it used to take 5x that because of AI. The field is evolving quickly.

Networking is just getting to know people and hustling. It just makes sense that if you are one of 100 applicants for a job but you are one of 3 that reached out to the hiring manager directly you have a better chance of them at least looking at your resume and giving you the benefit of the doubt. Many jobs are never posted as well or are only posted for regulatory purposes when the manager already knows who they want to hire. That's done through networking. You have to put up with a lot of no's and ghosting but if you get a hit your odds are decent. You can find a manager that was thinking of hiring someone but hadn't gotten around to posting it. Or you find a manager that is impressed with you and decides to find a way to create an opening.

Another aspect of networking of course is if you build a reputation or have more people that know you then you are more likely to get a second look or recommendation. I mean the Aggie Network is based around that concept. Doesn't mean it will get you hired but it gets you a lot better chance of being considered.

My point is I help a lot of kids in college and post college trying to get jobs. Those who follow my advice tend to succeed. Those who don't usually struggle. It's very tempting just to apply for a few jobs and then think you should just sit back and wait to see if you get noticed, it's also a great way to lose out on opportunities because someone else is already reaching out personally to the manager while you aren't. Tools like LinkedIn make it so easy to network and reach out, there is so much information available simply with a Google search and looking at dozens of sources about companies.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's fair or better or worse than 10 or 20 or 50 years ago. I'm just saying it's the most effective way to win and you can choose to do it or not. You may get lucky just applying for jobs and that's great.
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Stone Choir
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aggie93 said:

Stone Choir said:

aggie93 said:

agsalaska said:

cmag said:

I can't imagine coming out of college into the workforce today. All these kids are going to be competing against AI. I'm glad I'm on the back hill slide of my career, and trying to figure out wtf to steer my kids towards before they hit college age. Terrified for them.

No way.

There is more money to be made than ever before. You just have to make an expectations adjustment. We used to go to college and work our way up the ranks. Hell my degree is in POLS and I have spent most of my career in retail management. You could get a degree in anything and just enter the workforce one step ahead. That's over. But tradesmen make a LOT more money today than ever before. I have a buddy that is an electrician. He has about 15 guys working for him and he has made millions. He makes more money than our CEO and shaves maybe once a week.

Plumber or electrician is where it's at. More specifically, blue collar with leadership skills.

The key is adjusting that is for sure. My eldest graduates from A&M Galveston next month and he did Maritime Transportation. He had to give up his Summers to do Sea Terms and his career will mean he's gone half the time. He's got multiple 6 figure offers he is deciding between and tremendous job security for the forseeable future. Unless AI gets to the point where ships are completely unmanned with no humans aboard he's going to do very well for a very long time. While he was in HS he also got welding certified and he has a lot of skills. He worked part time on charter fishing vessels as well on the weekends.

Other son graduated from HS and has a full ride to study Biomedical Engineering. He worked 2 Summers as an Auto Mechanic (started off sweeping the shop and doing any grunt job they could dream up). He learned how to operate just about any shop tool in robotics and landed an internship this Summer working for a Med Device company working on their CNC mill, routers, and laser cutters. He also makes some side money using his drone for construction companies helping them to survey sites.

There are tons of small business endeavors kids can get into (and I'm not even talking about all the easy money from social media and influencers). You just have to hustle and work. There is so much information out there that's easily available to people now as well about how to do just about anything. It's not on a sliver platter but the opportunities are there.

Problem is that the natural tendency of people is to look for easy buttons. They want to be able to study what they want, work when and where they want, not bother saving or investing, not take risks, and yet they want all the benefits of those who do those things. That's not new to this generation btw, the difference is the information age has made it easier to succeed and also easier to be lazy more than ever. If you follow the herd and don't take responsibility for your choices though it's not likely going to turn out well for you though. You can be a sheep or a wolf, it's just most people make that choice by default.


The issue is not the jobs, it's obtaining a job. HR job systems for online applications are utterly broken and every job is inundated with 200 AI applications in 5 minutes after it is posted. It's a black hole nowadays. These kids aren't working not because they don't want to work but because they literally cannot find a job, at all. There are thousands of stories of people sending out 500+ applications and receiving zero responses.

It's about adjustments. If you just apply for jobs and expect to get results it is tough if you are experienced much less being one of the volumes of new college grads that look so similar. You have to network and use tools like LinkedIn to connect directly with hiring managers. Get out of your comfort zone. Think creatively. Smaller companies are also much more likely to give you a shot, especially if you reach out directly to the hiring manager or owner and show initiative. If you are relying on recruiters and HR to see how you are special among hundred of applicants while they are working on a dozen jobs don't be surprised when you get lost in the shuffle.

If you just want to sit back and send resumes to Fortune 500 companies when you don't have experience you might as well play the lottery. Both my boys got internships and jobs with a little hustle and creativity. My youngest has an internship out of HS that most college juniors would kill for and he never sent a resume to apply for a job in a traditional fashion, he actually had multiple great jobs to choose from. He spent time on his resume. He spent time on his LinkedIn profile. He spent time making connections. He spent time reaching out to anyone he thought might be helpful.

I talk to so many college kids I try and help and new grads who just won't do that. They start to but they won't follow through. It's just so much easier to apply and pray and then say they can't get a job. Then if you tell them to actually call on a business directly they are terrified. The reality is that if they are willing to put themselves out there and show they can handle a bit of rejection it is likely to pay off. It's not easy but it's there. Instead I hear about whining that companies don't get back to them on their applications as if that is going to help things, take ownership and try different paths or follow up don't sit around being upset that a company you spent 3 minutes sending a resume to isn't getting back to you with an auto reject email.

In their defense, most kids aren't taught any of this and instead get doom and gloom from social media or bad advice on how to look for a job with unrealistic expectations and no understanding of how the business world works.


You're out of touch. Here is what is happening:





HR is controlled by Indians now. When they find out you're not Indian, you get ghosted. Why do you think everything is perfectly fine? You have your head stuck in the sand.
Decay
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We could literally enter a golden age by fixing illegal immigration, H1-B, and USAID-type waste. Democrats absolutely infested and rotted our country but there's still a chance to stick our foot in the ground and GO.
agracer
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agwrestler said:

Or could it be they have a metric ****ton of Muslim immigrants soaking up those jobs?

43% decline?

The number of Muslim coming to the UK are not that large.
schmellba99
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Buford T. Justice said:

They don't want to work on the heat.
Trades sound good until you're working under a house, or in the attic in July.

A lot of that issue disappears when the paychecks come in.
LMCane
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cmag said:

I can't imagine coming out of college into the workforce today. All these kids are going to be competing against AI. I'm glad I'm on the back hill slide of my career, and trying to figure out wtf to steer my kids towards before they hit college age. Terrified for them.


your kids will be part Humanoid and part AI
try to steer them around that.
schmellba99
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FDT 1999 said:

RikkiTikkaTagem said:

cmag said:

I can't imagine coming out of college into the workforce today. All these kids are going to be competing against AI. I'm glad I'm on the back hill slide of my career, and trying to figure out wtf to steer my kids towards before they hit college age. Terrified for them.


Frankly, don't see how college is a good investment anymore.

I generally agree with this. 99% of classes I took for my degree were useless in my profession; however, every company I've ever worked for won't hire anyone without a degree so it's a barrier to entry.

I agree with you though. College itself is a terrible investment that taught me very little useful information. It opened many doors though.

I have never looked at anybody's degree as a measure of the fact that they actually learned something. Frankly, aside from a very few professions, degrees in XYZ subject mean very little.

What a degree tells me about a prospective new hire is two things:

1. They have the wherewithal to start something that takes a long time and a lot of effort - and finish it.
2. They have the ability to learn

I really don't even care much about GPA - above a 2 and below a 3.5 are the sweet spot for me. Preferably between about 2.75 and 3.35. Below 2 and I start to think that person graduated not because they learned or passed, but because the system pushed them through because it was easy. Above a 3.5 and generally speaking the person doesn't have interpersonal skills or common sense required for the job.
schmellba99
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texagbeliever said:

bmks270 said:

Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:

Offshoring is a huge issue, often overlooked for American workers.


Return to office policies and simultaneously offshoring.

This is what sets me off. Make the Americans commute into the office so they can hop on a call with someone in India. The goal of return to office is pretty obvious... RIF through voluntary methods.

That may be some small percentage of the goal, maybe.

But the fact of the matter is that people tend to work better in the right type of office environments. I'm not talking about cube farms with Lumberg overlording them. You miss a lot by not having the in-office environment in most sectors - a lot of work gets done in the breakroom conversations or passing by in the hallway talks. Beyond that, people are social animals - we always have been. You actually get to know your coworkers in an in-office environment whereas when everybody works from home all of the time, you lose a metric crap ton of the team cohesiveness and ability to work together (collaboration, etc. - whatever the buzzwords of today are).

I absolutely HATE my drive to the office. But I get 10x more done before lunch when I get there than I do all day working from home, and I am far more in tune with the day to day operations and future outlook than I would even dream of being if I worked from home all of the time, no matter how many reports I can look at on a computer screen.
aggie93
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Stone Choir said:

aggie93 said:

Stone Choir said:

aggie93 said:

agsalaska said:

cmag said:

I can't imagine coming out of college into the workforce today. All these kids are going to be competing against AI. I'm glad I'm on the back hill slide of my career, and trying to figure out wtf to steer my kids towards before they hit college age. Terrified for them.

No way.

There is more money to be made than ever before. You just have to make an expectations adjustment. We used to go to college and work our way up the ranks. Hell my degree is in POLS and I have spent most of my career in retail management. You could get a degree in anything and just enter the workforce one step ahead. That's over. But tradesmen make a LOT more money today than ever before. I have a buddy that is an electrician. He has about 15 guys working for him and he has made millions. He makes more money than our CEO and shaves maybe once a week.

Plumber or electrician is where it's at. More specifically, blue collar with leadership skills.

The key is adjusting that is for sure. My eldest graduates from A&M Galveston next month and he did Maritime Transportation. He had to give up his Summers to do Sea Terms and his career will mean he's gone half the time. He's got multiple 6 figure offers he is deciding between and tremendous job security for the forseeable future. Unless AI gets to the point where ships are completely unmanned with no humans aboard he's going to do very well for a very long time. While he was in HS he also got welding certified and he has a lot of skills. He worked part time on charter fishing vessels as well on the weekends.

Other son graduated from HS and has a full ride to study Biomedical Engineering. He worked 2 Summers as an Auto Mechanic (started off sweeping the shop and doing any grunt job they could dream up). He learned how to operate just about any shop tool in robotics and landed an internship this Summer working for a Med Device company working on their CNC mill, routers, and laser cutters. He also makes some side money using his drone for construction companies helping them to survey sites.

There are tons of small business endeavors kids can get into (and I'm not even talking about all the easy money from social media and influencers). You just have to hustle and work. There is so much information out there that's easily available to people now as well about how to do just about anything. It's not on a sliver platter but the opportunities are there.

Problem is that the natural tendency of people is to look for easy buttons. They want to be able to study what they want, work when and where they want, not bother saving or investing, not take risks, and yet they want all the benefits of those who do those things. That's not new to this generation btw, the difference is the information age has made it easier to succeed and also easier to be lazy more than ever. If you follow the herd and don't take responsibility for your choices though it's not likely going to turn out well for you though. You can be a sheep or a wolf, it's just most people make that choice by default.


The issue is not the jobs, it's obtaining a job. HR job systems for online applications are utterly broken and every job is inundated with 200 AI applications in 5 minutes after it is posted. It's a black hole nowadays. These kids aren't working not because they don't want to work but because they literally cannot find a job, at all. There are thousands of stories of people sending out 500+ applications and receiving zero responses.

It's about adjustments. If you just apply for jobs and expect to get results it is tough if you are experienced much less being one of the volumes of new college grads that look so similar. You have to network and use tools like LinkedIn to connect directly with hiring managers. Get out of your comfort zone. Think creatively. Smaller companies are also much more likely to give you a shot, especially if you reach out directly to the hiring manager or owner and show initiative. If you are relying on recruiters and HR to see how you are special among hundred of applicants while they are working on a dozen jobs don't be surprised when you get lost in the shuffle.

If you just want to sit back and send resumes to Fortune 500 companies when you don't have experience you might as well play the lottery. Both my boys got internships and jobs with a little hustle and creativity. My youngest has an internship out of HS that most college juniors would kill for and he never sent a resume to apply for a job in a traditional fashion, he actually had multiple great jobs to choose from. He spent time on his resume. He spent time on his LinkedIn profile. He spent time making connections. He spent time reaching out to anyone he thought might be helpful.

I talk to so many college kids I try and help and new grads who just won't do that. They start to but they won't follow through. It's just so much easier to apply and pray and then say they can't get a job. Then if you tell them to actually call on a business directly they are terrified. The reality is that if they are willing to put themselves out there and show they can handle a bit of rejection it is likely to pay off. It's not easy but it's there. Instead I hear about whining that companies don't get back to them on their applications as if that is going to help things, take ownership and try different paths or follow up don't sit around being upset that a company you spent 3 minutes sending a resume to isn't getting back to you with an auto reject email.

In their defense, most kids aren't taught any of this and instead get doom and gloom from social media or bad advice on how to look for a job with unrealistic expectations and no understanding of how the business world works.


You're out of touch. Here is what is happening:





HR is controlled by Indians now. When they find out you're not Indian, you get ghosted. Why do you think everything is perfectly fine? You have your head stuck in the sand.

This is just wrong, sorry. I've been in tech recruiting for 30 plus years. I work in recruiting for a major tech firm now and have placed hundreds of H-1s, L-1s, O-1s, TN-1's and on and on. I could give a lecture on the subject. It's patently false that HR is 99% Indians as well (btw, most hiring is done by Recruiting/TA which is often not even really part of HR so that shows how much this guy doesn't know what he is talking about).

Now there are definitely problems in HR, Recruiting, with H-1s and on and on but it's important to actually address them objectively if you want to solve them. That's why I suggest going after the consulting firms that specialize in H-1s like Cognizant, Tata, etc and Fortune 500's that are not tech companies like Financial firms that hire volumes of H-1s trying to save money.

Google doesn't care about saving money by hiring H-1s. They care about the tech and getting the best tech so they can stay ahead of their competition. They pay at the top of the scale along with Apple, Nvidia, AWS, and Microsoft for talent regardless of visa. Do Google and other big tech companies do bad things? Absolutely. It isn't about saving money by hiring cheaper talent though. They want the best talent and will pay for it. It's like saying the NY Yankees and Dodgers are trying to bring up minor leaguers instead of hiring free agents to save money. There are absolutely clubs that do that but those teams just want to win titles and they don't care what it costs.

BTW, the major tech company I work for has almost no Indians in HR/Recruiting in the US and that's common among tech companies. DEI is definitely an issue there but not some Indian takeover. That's only for small tech companies that are started and owned by Indians or the consulting firms I mentioned that have a business model built on H-1s.

Hey but I'm sure some rando account on X is far more up to speed than some "out of touch" guy that has does this every day.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
deddog
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Ag87H2O said:

All the more reason for high school graduates to consider a skilled labor or technical trade. There is tons of demand in many areas, especially where retirements are starting to hit. Someone with the knowledge and a few years experience that has any ambition can own their own business and be making six figures in a relatively short timeframe.

Trades and skill labor can get rapidly obsolete too.
Imagine being a garage mechanic. You'll be ok for a few years, but already you can't work on any EVs since they are all computerized. You have what 10 years? 15 tops?
nu awlins ag
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cmag said:

I can't imagine coming out of college into the workforce today. All these kids are going to be competing against AI. I'm glad I'm on the back hill slide of my career, and trying to figure out wtf to steer my kids towards before they hit college age. Terrified for them.


Finance or medical. Both mine at A&M are pursuing this.
deddog
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Stone Choir said:


HR is controlled by Indians now. When they find out you're not Indian, you get ghosted. Why do you think everything is perfectly fine? You have your head stuck in the sand.

HR is controlled by Indians where? In US based companies?
Rarely seen Indians in HR, unless you have an India office, where, shocker, they tend to be Indian.
BenFiasco14
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WSJ has an article today talking about how CEOs can openly tout cutting workforces as a good thing for investors and there's no longer any human element blowback.

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/layoff-business-strategy-reduce-staff-11796d66?st=DWCN3T&reflink=article_copyURL_share

I was having the exact thought as the OP reading this. I'm worried for my future and I've been out of school for awhile.

I really pity these kids. These things do have a way of working themselves out though. Wish I had the answer
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
Logos Stick
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There's a significant amount of hopium in this thread concerning the limitations of AI, imo.

Speaking as someone who is financially independent - more than enough money to retire at any tiime - I remain deeply concerned (sick to my stomach honestly) about the long-term outlook for younger generations. My apprehension isn't rooted in emotion, but in what I see as structural economic realities.

AI and robotics represent a paradigm shift in the labor market - one that is far more transformative than previous technological disruptions. Unlike past waves of automation, this change targets both cognitive and manual labor simultaneously, raising serious questions about the future of employment.

I'm relieved that I no longer have to rely on employment, as I'm increasingly uncertain whether the roles I'm qualified for will continue to exist in the evolving job market. Or they may exist, but there will be far fewer of them.
93MarineHorn
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Logos Stick said:

There's a significant amount of hopium in this thread concerning the limitations of AI, imo.

Speaking as someone who is financially independent - more than enough money to retire at any tiime - I remain deeply concerned (sick to my stomach honestly) about the long-term outlook for younger generations. My apprehension isn't rooted in emotion, but in what I see as structural economic realities.

AI and robotics represent a paradigm shift in the labor market - one that is far more transformative than previous technological disruptions. Unlike past waves of automation, this change targets both cognitive and manual labor simultaneously, raising serious questions about the future of employment.

I'm relieved that I no longer have to rely on employment, as I'm increasingly uncertain whether the roles I'm qualified for will continue to exist in the evolving job market. Or they may exist, but there will be far fewer of them.

I'm beginning to come around to your way of thinking on AI. Robotics advances paired with AI may render 90% of today's workforce unnecessary. It could happen within a couple of decades. Seems likely that UBI will become more than just Leftist fantasy.
BBRex
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deddog said:

Ag87H2O said:

All the more reason for high school graduates to consider a skilled labor or technical trade. There is tons of demand in many areas, especially where retirements are starting to hit. Someone with the knowledge and a few years experience that has any ambition can own their own business and be making six figures in a relatively short timeframe.

Trades and skill labor can get rapidly obsolete too.
Imagine being a garage mechanic. You'll be ok for a few years, but already you can't work on any EVs since they are all computerized. You have what 10 years? 15 tops?


I believe, 20-30 years from now, wives will still be backing into posts, so make sure you learn collision repair. (Unless, of course, the feds force us into self-driving cars.)

Seriously, sending everyone into the trades is going to take away the benefits of going into them now. It's the same as the "everyone should be an engineer" fallacy.
infinity ag
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Lathspell said:

infinity ag said:

Networking is overrated. People like to say it to seem intellectual.This is another lie to gaslight Americans while they ship jobs to India. Many just repeat the lie hoping to sound smart and sagely. When the tide turns and there are plenty of jobs, the same companies will come to you begging to accept.

Wow... you must not actually work in any kind of business development at all. Networking is by far the best way to generate business, right behind referrals from existing customers. For finding a job, it is a great way to get in the door somewhere.

That's great your son got response on his application. I did too from a couple of companies after college, but the job I eventually took was one I found through the Aggie network.

I think, when you say "networking", you're thinking of a happy hour where you show up and hand your card to strangers. That is just an excuse to go out drinking after work and is barely "networking".


My point is that networking is not the only way to get a job. It depends on the situation. If you move to india/China, then you need to know how to breathe to get a job. Why? Because they want to ship you to America where the gullible people there pay the company $50/hr to do nothing. No networking needed. In America where we have sold ourselves out, you may need to do it more. But then again, it depends.


So the people who piously gaslight people saying they need to network more are full of it. Today in America you got to do everything you can to land a miserable job. We are headed downhill.
infinity ag
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Over_ed said:

infinity ag said:

agsalaska said:

cmag said:

I can't imagine coming out of college into the workforce today. All these kids are going to be competing against AI. I'm glad I'm on the back hill slide of my career, and trying to figure out wtf to steer my kids towards before they hit college age. Terrified for them.

No way.

There is more money to be made than ever before. You just have to make an expectations adjustment. We used to go to college and work our way up the ranks. Hell my degree is in POLS and I have spent most of my career in retail management. You could get a degree in anything and just enter the workforce one step ahead. That's over. But tradesmen make a LOT more money today than ever before. I have a buddy that is an electrician. He has about 15 guys working for him and he has made millions. He makes more money than our CEO and shaves maybe once a week.

Plumber or electrician is where it's at. More specifically, blue collar with leadership skills.


Your kid and my kid become electricians and plumbers and sewage guys and construction guys in our own country.

Vijay from India and Ching Chong from China sends their kids here to do high paying tech work and make $100M salaries.

Nice.

This is Boomer logic which is why we are here as a country.

Really? The youngest Boomer is what, 61? Most corporate boomers are retired, many for 15 - 20 years. The leadership in most orgs are X-ers, and tech usually skews younger.

BTW, if I were a CEO, I might be doing the same -- AI, probably not offshoring. A business's job is to make profit, and if other companies are doing AI, there is a lot of pressure to do the same to be competitive and more importantly to grow in the future.

The same as industrial production replaced piece-work in the Industrial Revolution. Now days, there is little heartburn over those many lives ruined by industrialization, right?

AI is likely to only get better, and robots will allow AI to replace people in many other settings.



Fair point.
The problem is with our politicians. They sold us out, they are supposed to watch out for the citizens. So I blame them for not tariffing the sheet out of these companies for hiring abroad. You want to hire Ching Chong? Go ahead. We slap 50% tariff on your ass. Govt can do it if they want. CEO can then hire anyone he wants then.
AggieKatie2
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I don't understand sometimes how we went from Ford increasing his employee pay so they could afford the product they made (allowing Ford to increase sales) and improve his workforce to offshore everything "for the shareholders" and then fewer people domestically can afford much of anything.
 
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