rgvag11 said:

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If you want to answer that question thoughtfully, then you must first understand the conditions that led up to the horrific event. The first thing is to know the opposition's reasons and grievances.

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So, hammering Hamas for a totally unprovoked attack on innocent civilians is not an opposition reason and grievance.

Raping children is somehow justified due to some past opposition reasons and grievances?

rgvag11 said:

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Tell the President. Trump's support for Israel is unwavering. We have continually provided them arms without interruption.

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The President already knows. I mean, when protests against Israel can't get anyone go attend without paying them, he knows nobody here GAF about stupid ***** Linking terrorists by ANOTHER COUNTRY is great. Dead terrorists plus we don't have to commit resources.

I find it interesting that hundreds of Palestinians were killed in the West Bank prior to the attack but people can consider it an unprovoked attack.

Imagine a world where Hamas cared more about their people than they do about killing Jews.

The billions upon billions of aid money would have been invested in infrastructure, real education, and creating opportunities for their people. That would have fueled investment, prosperity, and freedom.

Instead they built tunnels and weapons and curated a submissive populace.

That is the real tragedy of the people of Gaza. They have been used as pawns and shields to foment hate. That is the only value their leaders put on them.

If Hamas respected Israeli sovereignty, which they haven't, then Israeli right would have to respect Palestinian sovereignty, which they wouldn't.

The first part of your statement is absolute fact. The second part is conjecture and not backed up by history.

There is a history of past peace deals that were rejected by the Palestinians. They have proven time and again they would rather have war than coexist with the Jews. A lot of bad things happen when you choose war and hatred.

Israel has shown tolerance of others as evidenced by its population of not only Jews, but also Arabs, Muslims, and Christians.

rgvag11 said:

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If you want to answer that question thoughtfully, then you must first understand the conditions that led up to the horrific event. The first thing is to know the opposition's reasons and grievances.

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I'm pretty sure Israel understood the 'death to Israel' chants that the Palestinians have chanted since the 90s. We all just need to sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya? Good grief this guy.

rgvag11 said:

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There was no baby in an oven.

What Hamas did was horrendous enough. Why lie?

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Says the person lying about IDF using human shields.

The Israeli right had its part to play in sabotaging peace. The Israeli right and Hamas' goals align in that bith are adamantly opposed to a two state solution. This is why Netanyahu and the right has supported Hamas over the Palestinian Authority and have allow billions in cash to go to Hamas, which funded their attack.

It is well documented that IDF troops have used Palestinians as human shields. I can't help if people want to participate in willed ignorance and ignore or dismiss this publicly available information.

There is no doubt that examples of misconduct and extremists can be found on the Israeli side.

But to somehow equate that as equally offsetting of the Palestinian's actions is whole new level of willful ignorance.

When Israel does something out of bounds they get global criticism, but when Hamas does far worse people just shrug and say "what do you expect from them?"

Not to mention the impossible double standards at play.

In what war other than this one is one side criticized mercilessly if they don't provide food and electricity to those trying to kill them?

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It is well documented that IDF troops have used Palestinians as human shields

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You call out the exceptions, but that Hamas makes a strategic practice of this gets no rebuke from you.

All the fury and accusations and weeding out the truth from the mounds of propaganda put out, it's all really very simple at it's core.

Hamas places a far greater priority on destroying Israel than it does on building a society for its own people.

Suppose they did accomplish their mission of from the River to the Sea. Would the lives of ordinary Palestinians suddenly become much better?

No. The hellhole they made in Gaza would just be a bigger one.

rgvag11 said:

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Palestinians don't want to leave their home and others support their position. It's really not hard to understand once you put your biases aside.

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Maybe they should stop electing, supporting, and standing in solidarity with Hamas.

So what's you excuse for how Israel treats the Palestinian Authority? That's where your argument breaks down. The Israeli right has always had their sights set on the entirety of Mandatory Palestine.

rgvag11 said:

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The difference is I have called out the bad actions of both sides. Some people are ignoring Israe'ls actions that are a matter of public record. It's insane.

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No, you actually haven't. Palestinians are Hamas. One in the same.

No, the IDF using human shields was proven and documented as being a wide spread practice. IDF records are available. It's all publicly available information.

rgvag11 said:

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No, the IDF using human shields was proven and documented as being a wide spread practice. IDF records are available. It's all publicly available information.

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Let me guess, the UN and ICC again?

Whatever it takes to let you dismiss it out of hand.

rgvag11 said:

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Whatever it takes to let you dismiss it out of hand.

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So that's a yes

Science Denier said:

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rgvag11 said:

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If you want to answer that question thoughtfully, then you must first understand the conditions that led up to the horrific event. The first thing is to know the opposition's reasons and grievances.

---

So, hammering Hamas for a totally unprovoked attack on innocent civilians is not an opposition reason and grievance.

Raping children is somehow justified due to some past opposition reasons and grievances?

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"Society is responsible for the crimes."

That defense never holds up in court. Individuals are responsible for their actions.

rgvag11 said:

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Palestinians don't want to leave their home and others support their position. It's really not hard to understand once you put your biases aside.

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14 million Germans east of the Oder-Neisse Line didn't want to leave their homes either, but they lost the war that they started, so their opinions didn't matter.

techno-ag said:

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Science Denier said:

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rgvag11 said:

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If you want to answer that question thoughtfully, then you must first understand the conditions that led up to the horrific event. The first thing is to know the opposition's reasons and grievances.

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So, hammering Hamas for a totally unprovoked attack on innocent civilians is not an opposition reason and grievance.

Raping children is somehow justified due to some past opposition reasons and grievances?

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"Society is responsible for the crimes."

That defense never holds up in court. Individuals are responsible for their actions.

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That's what the ICC says about Israel.

And that doesn't make it right. In fact, it was later defined as a war crime.

rgvag11 said:

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techno-ag said:

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Science Denier said:

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rgvag11 said:

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If you want to answer that question thoughtfully, then you must first understand the conditions that led up to the horrific event. The first thing is to know the opposition's reasons and grievances.

---

So, hammering Hamas for a totally unprovoked attack on innocent civilians is not an opposition reason and grievance.

Raping children is somehow justified due to some past opposition reasons and grievances?

---

"Society is responsible for the crimes."

That defense never holds up in court. Individuals are responsible for their actions.

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That's what the ICC says about Israel.

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And another ICC bootlick

How effective is a Palestinian as a human shield to those who build their military assets under Palestinian schools and hospitals? Not something I'd be betting my life on.

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So what's you excuse for how Israel treats the Palestinian Authority?

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My reasoning is that Israel has a right to defend itself against people committed to its destruction.

You continue to just shrug off the fact that if Hamas had a priority of its people over the destruction of Israel, there would be no war, there would be no hunger, there would be peace and prosperity. And the extremists in Israel would be held in check by the majority of Israelis who just want peace.

Try to honestly answer what the situation would be like if all the aid given to Gaza would have been used to build up their society rather than used for purposes of war. Do you really think Israel would be overrunning a peaceful prosperous Gaza?

Palestinians have the same right. Israel was an aggressor prior to October 7th by killing hundreds of Palestinians and forcibly displacing them from their homes. The Palestinian Authority and Hamas are not the same and yet they are being blamed for the other's actions.


To answer your question: No, the right is too powerful in Israel and wants all the land for themselves, and stated such.

The Democrat party's political playbook has become to find a thousand ways to put people into certain "classes" - find areas of inequality (of outcome) between them, and blame (ie, assume) that this due to [bad-word]-ism (pick your flavor of the month: racism, sexism, etc).

The Jewish state is too wealthy and doesn't fit into their paradigm of a "victim class" - so, they must be evil, taking advantage of some other class in order to be successful.

Yes. They want it all.

The strongest evidence against your position that Israel wants all the land and wants ethnic cleansing is that it hasn't happened. If those were Israel's goals, it would have wiped out all of Gaza by November the 7th and it would be well on its way to being rebuilt by now.

But suppose you are right - Israel wants it all. What does Palestine want?

It's been happening, and is on-going. Israel is taking over the West Bank. They are working on plans for Gaza.

Yea, the ethnic cleansing and genocide arguments are ridiculous. If Israel was actually going for that, it would look a lot more like Dressen or Tokyo bombings during WWII over large population centers.

rgvag11 said:

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It's been happening, and is on-going. Israel is taking over the West Bank. They are working on plans for Gaza.

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Good. Israel's biggest mistake was not doing this in 1967.