Eliminatus said:

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japantiger said:

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For the last 108 years, 4 generations of my family have deployed to Europe to save the Europeans from themselves. 108 years is long enough to waste American blood and treasure for a people that won't defend themselves. Get out of NATO...

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Oh stop with the semantics. There were the two World Wars, both of which we entered years after they started and the Allies had already lost hundreds of thousands of men defending. Millions in the case of WW1. Don't belittle the sacrifices your family made. They helped stop actual evil in this world and made the US the strongest nation in history. And in return, they answered when we called on them. Granted it was a dumb war, but they still came.

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Thanks for the non sequitur....we're 80 years past any of that and still pretending Europe is in crisis requiring our blood and treasure. How many years of your life was pissed away over there? How many of your children do you think should be sacrificed so atrophied states can live off the US dole?

74OA said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Teslag said:

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Logos Stick said:

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74OA said:

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The US military stationed in Europe not only provide a crucial tripwire helping to deter Russian aggression against our vital European markets,

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Perhaps they can increase their defense budgets and station their own troops there. Those markets are vital to Europe too.

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Romania and Poland have both built massive new bases to host a US presence, and both have substantially increased their military spending (in the case of Poland they exceed our spending per their GDP than we do).

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IIRC, after Trump met with the NATO countries in his first term they all increased their spending, which a pretty much all he wanted from them, to put their share of skin in the game.

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It was the start of Putin's war in 2022 that galvanized European defense spending. In 2021 only 6 allies were at the 2% level, by this year the number in compliance had jumped to 23 of 32 NATO members.

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Thanks, I didn't realize that.

Those other 9 need to get on board.

japantiger said:

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Eliminatus said:

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japantiger said:

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For the last 108 years, 4 generations of my family have deployed to Europe to save the Europeans from themselves. 108 years is long enough to waste American blood and treasure for a people that won't defend themselves. Get out of NATO...

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Oh stop with the semantics. There were the two World Wars, both of which we entered years after they started and the Allies had already lost hundreds of thousands of men defending. Millions in the case of WW1. Don't belittle the sacrifices your family made. They helped stop actual evil in this world and made the US the strongest nation in history. And in return, they answered when we called on them. Granted it was a dumb war, but they still came.

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Thanks for the non sequitur....we're 80 years past any of that and still pretending Europe is in crisis requiring our blood and treasure. How many years of your life was pissed away over there? How many of your children do you think should be sacrificed so atrophied states can live off the US dole?

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Interesting, your use of non sequitur. As you were the very one asserting that we were wasting American blood and treasure to this day? And now you are saying we are pretending?

All I am saying is that you are being dramatic. It's not nearly as bad as you are alluding to. We have been securing essential friendships and treaties for generations with Europe. Our relationship with that continent is what helped make us the strongest in the world. And Russia et al was always our foe in that part of the world. NATO secured us the best thing we could have ever asked for. Potential battlefields that were NOT American soil. The strategic positioning that NATO afforded us against a showdown vs Russia is incalculable. And now that the rest of NATO is finally spooling up their military, it will be better.

Look, NATO is FAR from perfect. In fact, it's a mess. But it still has its use and it is trending in the right direction. Putin still has ambitions of an empire and still exhibits a threat to the greater area. If you don't believe that, that's fine. Others do. Including his neighbors and most of our government.

This was a bit too long to read all five pages, so apologies if this has already been said.

Extending our nuclear umbrella to NATO has kept nations other than UK and France -- I am looking at you, Germany -- from developing nuclear weapons on their own. If faced with Russia and their nuclear arsenal, and without NATO, many European national would be pressured to develop such weapons. And, they have the ability to do so.

Teslag said:

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Logos Stick said:

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74OA said:

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The US military stationed in Europe not only provide a crucial tripwire helping to deter Russian aggression against our vital European markets,

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Perhaps they can increase their defense budgets and station their own troops there. Those markets are vital to Europe too.

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Romania and Poland have both built massive new bases to host a US presence, and both have substantially increased their military spending (in the case of Poland they exceed our spending per their GDP than we do).

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…And then had to have their (Romanian) courts cancel their elections literally because tiktok videos might have influenced voters to oppose the war/favor a populist more aligned with Russia than the EU/Nato. Sillier than a 'leaky urinal' causing Republicans observers to be kicked out of Fulton County way back in 2020.

And PiS is likely to overtake Tusk in 2025 toward May in Poland as well. I'm not gonna search for a neutral source, but Slovakia I note is rarely brought up in these discussions of Nato member states.

Quote:

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I'm not gonna search for a neutral source

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We know.

Eliminatus said:

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japantiger said:

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Eliminatus said:

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japantiger said:

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For the last 108 years, 4 generations of my family have deployed to Europe to save the Europeans from themselves. 108 years is long enough to waste American blood and treasure for a people that won't defend themselves. Get out of NATO...

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Oh stop with the semantics. There were the two World Wars, both of which we entered years after they started and the Allies had already lost hundreds of thousands of men defending. Millions in the case of WW1. Don't belittle the sacrifices your family made. They helped stop actual evil in this world and made the US the strongest nation in history. And in return, they answered when we called on them. Granted it was a dumb war, but they still came.

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Thanks for the non sequitur....we're 80 years past any of that and still pretending Europe is in crisis requiring our blood and treasure. How many years of your life was pissed away over there? How many of your children do you think should be sacrificed so atrophied states can live off the US dole?

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Interesting, your use of non sequitur. As you were the very one asserting that we were wasting American blood and treasure to this day? And now you are saying we are pretending?

All I am saying is that you are being dramatic. It's not nearly as bad as you are alluding to. We have been securing essential friendships and treaties for generations with Europe. Our relationship with that continent is what helped make us the strongest in the world. And Russia et al was always our foe in that part of the world. NATO secured us the best thing we could have ever asked for. Potential battlefields that were NOT American soil. The strategic positioning that NATO afforded us against a showdown vs Russia is incalculable. And now that the rest of NATO is finally spooling up their military, it will be better.

Look, NATO is FAR from perfect. In fact, it's a mess. But it still has its use and it is trending in the right direction. Putin still has ambitions of an empire and still exhibits a threat to the greater area. If you don't believe that, that's fine. Others do. Including his neighbors and most of our government.

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I note you avoided answering the relevant questions. How many years of your life were spent there defending the Europeans and how many of your children are worth sacrificing for them.

That aside, all the things you reference became irrelevant 33 years ago. No threat in Europe is the 1983 Soviet Union.

The goal of getting the Europeans to spend 2% of their GDP on NATO should not be to supplement what we do. It should be in place of what we do now. 40% of all NATO troops are US troops. The Europeans will do nothing until they are made to do it. That is the only reason they have started anteing up the 2% funding level. Spending our money; which we don't have by the way; and risking our kids lives so European kids can sit on their ass is just stupid and immoral.

I'll answer. I spent three months in Germany. I spent six months in Afghanistan, flying close air support for our NATO allies that were there fighting and dying for us.

A significant amount of our US presence in Europe actually supports both CENTCOM and AFRICOM. They aren't just there to make sure Europeans can sit on their ass.

japantiger said:

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Eliminatus said:

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japantiger said:

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Eliminatus said:

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japantiger said:

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For the last 108 years, 4 generations of my family have deployed to Europe to save the Europeans from themselves. 108 years is long enough to waste American blood and treasure for a people that won't defend themselves. Get out of NATO...

---

Oh stop with the semantics. There were the two World Wars, both of which we entered years after they started and the Allies had already lost hundreds of thousands of men defending. Millions in the case of WW1. Don't belittle the sacrifices your family made. They helped stop actual evil in this world and made the US the strongest nation in history. And in return, they answered when we called on them. Granted it was a dumb war, but they still came.

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Thanks for the non sequitur....we're 80 years past any of that and still pretending Europe is in crisis requiring our blood and treasure. How many years of your life was pissed away over there? How many of your children do you think should be sacrificed so atrophied states can live off the US dole?

---

Interesting, your use of non sequitur. As you were the very one asserting that we were wasting American blood and treasure to this day? And now you are saying we are pretending?

All I am saying is that you are being dramatic. It's not nearly as bad as you are alluding to. We have been securing essential friendships and treaties for generations with Europe. Our relationship with that continent is what helped make us the strongest in the world. And Russia et al was always our foe in that part of the world. NATO secured us the best thing we could have ever asked for. Potential battlefields that were NOT American soil. The strategic positioning that NATO afforded us against a showdown vs Russia is incalculable. And now that the rest of NATO is finally spooling up their military, it will be better.

Look, NATO is FAR from perfect. In fact, it's a mess. But it still has its use and it is trending in the right direction. Putin still has ambitions of an empire and still exhibits a threat to the greater area. If you don't believe that, that's fine. Others do. Including his neighbors and most of our government.

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I note you avoided answering the relevant questions. How many years of your life were spent there defending the Europeans and how many of your children are worth sacrificing for them.

That aside, all the things you reference became irrelevant 33 years ago. No threat in Europe is the 1983 Soviet Union.

The goal of getting the Europeans to spend 2% of their GDP on NATO should not be to supplement what we do. It should be in place of what we do now. 40% of all NATO troops are US troops. The Europeans will do nothing until they are made to do it. That is the only reason they have started anteing up the 2% funding level. Spending our money; which we don't have by the way; and risking our kids lives so European kids can sit on their ass is just stupid and immoral.

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I didn't answer because my feelings don't matter in longterm strategic planning. Nor should it.

Agree to disagree on Russian threat in that time frame. And that 40% figure is just relative to populations. NYC alone is bigger than half the NATO nations. Useless stat. They are not spending our money. Sure they live in a security blanket, but that blanket was going to be built regardless because the fight was always going to boil down to US vs Russia. Full stop.

And sure they had issues in the past meeting that 2%, but majority are now or are ramping up to do so. Which is what this thread is about. NATO in the now. Not in the past. In that context, the past is irrelevant.

No Spin Ag said:

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74OA said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Teslag said:

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Logos Stick said:

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74OA said:

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The US military stationed in Europe not only provide a crucial tripwire helping to deter Russian aggression against our vital European markets,

---

Perhaps they can increase their defense budgets and station their own troops there. Those markets are vital to Europe too.

---

Romania and Poland have both built massive new bases to host a US presence, and both have substantially increased their military spending (in the case of Poland they exceed our spending per their GDP than we do).

---

IIRC, after Trump met with the NATO countries in his first term they all increased their spending, which a pretty much all he wanted from them, to put their share of skin in the game.

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It was the start of Putin's war in 2022 that galvanized European defense spending. In 2021 only 6 allies were at the 2% level, by this year the number in compliance had jumped to 23 of 32 NATO members.

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Thanks, I didn't realize that.

Those other 9 need to get on board.

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Yep, and they're under considerable pressure to do so.

NATO only receives a total of ~$4B in direct annual funding from all its members and that is used to pay for the headquarters, common C2 and infrastructure and other joint initiatives. The US share of that is 16%. The rest of NATO's funding is indirect in the form of whatever each member spends on its own national armed forces, of which all or a portion are earmarked as available for NATO operations. Except in time of war, NATO does not own any military combat forces.

That's why the 2% of GDP baseline is so important, because it funds the actual physical military force collectively available to NATO from all its members if war comes. It's also why only a miniscule part of the US $800B+ annual defense budget is spent directly on NATO; the vast preponderance is to support our own national forces which are used every day to defend our global interests beyond NATO.

hoopla said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Realistically, Russia is not a threat to the United States from a physical standpoint

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They have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world pointed at us.

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What scares me is their ability to maintain those nukes and the systems that control them.

Leave the NATO alliance …. No. Make the Euros pay their fair share … absolutely.

Leave the UN … absolutely. We pay for most of it and it has a distinctive AntiAmerican flavor.

NATO exists for a reason, but the United States is being shafted (due to our week leadership).

There's an agreement in place. There are dues to pay. However, there are too many deadbeat nations.

Here's an idea...

America should hold their payment until ALL the other NATO countries make their payments.

Make their payments? You don't understand the issue.

Well to be fair a lot of these same posters think our Ukraine aid is just pallets of cash flown to Kiev and then loaded on a Hunter Biden debit card.

We should keep all our military bases and reorganize diplomatically. Not saying do away with our alliances, but if the American middle class isn't getting some sort of benefit on some level, change it or do away with it.

GAC06 said:

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Make their payments? You don't understand the issue.

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I truly have come to the conclusion that there is a healthy chunk of F16 who truly have no idea what the hell they are talking about or how anything works in this world. Yet, somehow fervently and even vehemently at times, spew edgy opinions on the very things they literally know nothing about. It gets real old, real fast tbh.

Texas velvet maestro said:

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We should keep all our military bases and reorganize diplomatically. Not saying do away with our alliances, but if the American middle class isn't getting some sort of benefit on some level, change it or do away with it.

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I don't know what America in general gets from it now.

Having military bases everywhere just invites intervention. The last 20 years have been an absolute disaster.

We still run goods and services trade deficits of over $200b with Europe; we are being taken advantage of on tariffs and just in general.

The need for NATO ended when the wall fell. There is no upside from NATO; only potential downside.

All the countries of NATO make monthly payments in cash to Brussels so Jens Stoltenburg can dive into it like Scrooge McDuck

NATO is and has been a threat to American interests for some time. People just don't pay attention to what we are paying for.

For folks new here wondering "gee, how can NATO, a military alliance, be involved in censoring speech of US citizens and civilians across Europe?"

well, I've got just the condensed little lecture for you! 🫵 welcome to the land of... "From Tanks To Tweets" pic.twitter.com/G9cu4KO5Rm

— Mike Benz (@MikeBenzCyber) September 4, 2024

Texas velvet maestro said:

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We should keep all our military bases and reorganize diplomatically. Not saying do away with our alliances, but if the American middle class isn't getting some sort of benefit on some level, change it or do away with it.

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How are Americans everyday lives negatively affected by our alliances/NATO?

George Washington warned us about the issue in his farewell address. Eisenhower reminded us and warned us specifically about the issue in his farewell address.

Eliminatus said:

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GAC06 said:

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Make their payments? You don't understand the issue.

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I truly have come to the conclusion that there is a healthy chunk of F16 who truly have no idea what the hell they are talking about or how anything works in this world. Yet, somehow fervently and even vehemently at times, spew edgy opinions on the very things they literally know anything about. It gets real old, real fast tbh.

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Many also believe that world was in complete peace and harmony until the creation of the CIA. Then war was discovered and the world descended into hell and the United States was the worst country to ever exist.

No Spin Ag said:

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Texas velvet maestro said:

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We should keep all our military bases and reorganize diplomatically. Not saying do away with our alliances, but if the American middle class isn't getting some sort of benefit on some level, change it or do away with it.

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How are Americans everyday lives negatively affected by our alliances/NATO?

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NATO is one big military psyop that undermines freedom of speech and commerce/trade.

How NATO developed the field of "cognitive security" after losing hearts & minds in Ukraine in 2014

We are now living in that military psyop all day every day world. w/ @EmeraldRobinson pic.twitter.com/7QKCBO2JEO

— Mike Benz (@MikeBenzCyber) January 27, 2024

Here's a really good breakdown of clips from a recent stream for X subscribers I did on how NATO spooks funded by the US military & US State Dept held training sessions for private sector journalists teaching them techniques for Internet censorship: https://t.co/9sHd8MKOtk

— Mike Benz (@MikeBenzCyber) September 9, 2024

It started with blaming Russia for trumps first election and then as well brexit but has continued to metastasize

NATO is a huge threat to freedom and peace in the world.

Probably stated earlier...the nations we agreed to protect when the NATO Agreement was initiated, are not the same, culturally or politically. In fact, they are quite different (as is the US) and the OP's question deserves in depth analysis. As much as we dislike change, the world does so without our consent.

whatthehey78 said:

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Probably stated earlier...the nations we agreed to protect when the NATO Agreement was initiated, are not the same, culturally or politically. In fact, they are quite different (as is the US) and the OP's question deserves in depth analysis. As much as we dislike change, the world does so without our consent.

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Very well said

Teslag said:

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Eliminatus said:

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GAC06 said:

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Make their payments? You don't understand the issue.

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I truly have come to the conclusion that there is a healthy chunk of F16 who truly have no idea what the hell they are talking about or how anything works in this world. Yet, somehow fervently and even vehemently at times, spew edgy opinions on the very things they literally know anything about. It gets real old, real fast tbh.

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Many also believe that world was in complete peace and harmony until the creation of the CIA. Then war was discovered and the world descended into hell and the United States was the worst country to ever exist.

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We're just ignorant rubes that don't appreciate all the great things that the CIA and the MIC have done over the last 70 years. Coups all over the world, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan....we really are ingrates.

No Spin Ag said:

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Texas velvet maestro said:

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We should keep all our military bases and reorganize diplomatically. Not saying do away with our alliances, but if the American middle class isn't getting some sort of benefit on some level, change it or do away with it.

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How are Americans everyday lives negatively affected by our alliances/NATO?

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I'd say though spending and obligation, and entanglement that leads to money laundering and the influence from an international unelected class with no allegiance to the USA. NATO was formed in the face of the USSR and as it stands also seems to be directed (with its provocative encroachment) offensively at Russia. Now, there's more communism in Western Europe, and NATO, than in Russia.

To expand a bit further, Nato is a useful ploy/tool, outside the purview/direct reporting of course of our executive branch, which is employed by the intelligence community/military to achieve their strategic goals, whether that be silencing/defeating 'populists' in elections abroad, or American companies when they pose a threat to said organizational goals.

The network of NGO's, semi-affiliated organizations and programmed spending all then operate contra actual American's interests, as a counter-weight when American voters engage in wrong-think.

93MarineHorn said:

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Teslag said:

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Eliminatus said:

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GAC06 said:

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Make their payments? You don't understand the issue.

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I truly have come to the conclusion that there is a healthy chunk of F16 who truly have no idea what the hell they are talking about or how anything works in this world. Yet, somehow fervently and even vehemently at times, spew edgy opinions on the very things they literally know anything about. It gets real old, real fast tbh.

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Many also believe that world was in complete peace and harmony until the creation of the CIA. Then war was discovered and the world descended into hell and the United States was the worst country to ever exist.

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We're just ignorant rubes that don't appreciate all the great things that the CIA and the MIC have done over the last 70 years. Coups all over the world, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan....we really are ingrates.

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Yep. If not for the CIA, the centuries of peace between Muslims, Jews, and everyone else would have continued unabated.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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We've broken all of our treaties with Russia. We act like Russia acting in Russia's best interest is some moral failure of Russia that can't be overlooked.

Here's the hard truth. Our media and military and politicians prop Russia up as this giant boogey man to keep the grift churning. It's all fake. It's all lies. It's all designed to steal American wealth.

Look around. Our cities and small towns are becoming dilapidated but we're so concerned with Russia.

We have been robbed and you have Stockholm syndrome. Wake up.


Final point. If defending Europe was sooooo important and this moral obligation of all parities involved. Why are they allowing millions upon millions of third worlders to take over their countries?

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What specific treaties has the US broken with Russia?

Teslag said:

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93MarineHorn said:

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Teslag said:

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Eliminatus said:

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GAC06 said:

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Make their payments? You don't understand the issue.

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I truly have come to the conclusion that there is a healthy chunk of F16 who truly have no idea what the hell they are talking about or how anything works in this world. Yet, somehow fervently and even vehemently at times, spew edgy opinions on the very things they literally know anything about. It gets real old, real fast tbh.

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Many also believe that world was in complete peace and harmony until the creation of the CIA. Then war was discovered and the world descended into hell and the United States was the worst country to ever exist.

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We're just ignorant rubes that don't appreciate all the great things that the CIA and the MIC have done over the last 70 years. Coups all over the world, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan....we really are ingrates.

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Yep. If not for the CIA, the centuries of peace between Muslims, Jews, and everyone else would have continued unabated.

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The CIA was so powerful in the 8th Century...

GAC06 said:

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No, we should not leave NATO. That's ridiculous. Now if enough countries flat out refuse to do their part, then we can talk about it.

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I'm usually in agreement with you. I am growing a little sour on the left leaning NATO countries though.

IMO, overall the EU is an adversary of ours. Not just economically, but their importing of immigrants that they can't assimilate and their socialism.

My issue with NATO is that our real alliances need to be shifted more towards the former soviet countries and away from countries like france and Germany and belgium. Germany has changed so much, I don't care if russia attempted to take them over. Which of course they can't militarily, as we now know.

Countries like Poland are good allies and a real bulwark to russian expansion.

So, I don't feel married to NATO, but as long as we don't get stuck with the bill, I'm not in a rush to leave, but only because our military's working together has been good.

edit to add: I didn't read 5 pages of this, only taking a ten minute work break...

Eliminatus said:

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GAC06 said:

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Make their payments? You don't understand the issue.

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I truly have come to the conclusion that there is a healthy chunk of F16 who truly have no idea what the hell they are talking about or how anything works in this world. Yet, somehow fervently and even vehemently at times, spew edgy opinions on the very things they literally know anything about. It gets real old, real fast tbh.

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There used to be open discussion and debate. It has devolved to slightly better than youtube comments.

Now. you could have an engineer discuss a bridge collapse here and some ag major would tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.