Western hemisphere is rich with scenic beauty, Natural resources, and just waiting for a king to conquer.

Europe is a drag.

akm91 said:

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Before we do that, we should stop all funding to the UN.

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This. Stop funding & kick them out of NYC just to show the NATO deadbeats that we're not afraid of taking that sort of decisive action. Make it clear that they're going to financially support their own defense or we'll leave NATO too.

AgGrad99 said:

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GAC06 said:

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No, we should not leave NATO. That's ridiculous. Now if enough countries flat out refuse to do their part, then we can talk about it.

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Sooooo....we should talk about it?

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No. Your info is out of date.

Which NATO members spend the most or the least on defence?
• Poland, Estonia, US, Latvia and Greece top charts, with spending >3% of GDP
• Spain, Slovenia and Luxembourg sit at bottom, with spending <1.5% of GDP pic.twitter.com/POmpUxW99G

— Agathe Demarais (@AgatheDemarais) December 5, 2024

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Staying with NATO is stupid recency bias. We've fought wars against

England twice
France once
Italy once
Germany twice
Spain once


We've also fought for Russia once.
Fought along side Russia once.


The entire NATO premise defend Europe from Russia is a grift to steal money from the respective citizens.

There's no reason why Europe including Russia and united states can't all be Allie's other than special interest groups make a TON of money continuing the "Cold War".

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Are you including wars before the USA even existed….the French & Indian war? Are you considering occupied France an enemy? When has the the USA ever traded bullets with non-occupied France?

That is a forecast

akm91 said:

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Before we do that, we should stop all funding to the UN.

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This. Also, even though we have spent trillions on defending Europe, leaving NATO will just beckon Putin, China, and the rest of the "evil empires" to be emboldened.

There is no way that Europe can mobilize any type of military to be strong enough to protect themselves.

It is a double edged sword.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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It's the communists and Bolsheviks and another special interest group that are the enemy.

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In other words, Putin IS the enemy.

You do realize, don't you, that Putin was part of the KGB in the Soviet Union. If he was not a Communist, then he would not have been there.

Absolutely stay in NATO. It's times such as these when NATO is the most beneficial. Russian aggression must be contained and in doing so we weaken the China/North Korea/Iran/Russia axis. NATO is not just about containing Russia, although Russia is the most practical use case at present, it's also about containing China, North Korea, and Iran. If any of those countries see Russia achieving success, they will also assume an aggressive posture.

AgGrad99 said:

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That is a forecast

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For this year

HarleySpoon said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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Staying with NATO is stupid recency bias. We've fought wars against

England twice
France once
Italy once
Germany twice
Spain once


We've also fought for Russia once.
Fought along side Russia once.


The entire NATO premise defend Europe from Russia is a grift to steal money from the respective citizens.

There's no reason why Europe including Russia and united states can't all be Allie's other than special interest groups make a TON of money continuing the "Cold War".

---

Are you including wars before the USA even existed….the French & Indian war? Are you considering occupied France an enemy? When has the the USA ever traded bullets with non-occupied France?

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No.

We started a naval war with France because we refused to pay them for their services during the American revolution. So French navy vessels started seizing cargo ships to procure the money owed. And then a short naval war broke out.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War

Teslag said:

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"Yes, 100%" - Russia, North Korea, China, and Iran

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One of those is not like the others

This is an interesting perspective that I haven't considered.

The isolationists want to leave.

Non-isolationists want to stay in, but push other NATO members to start pulling their weight and paying the full amount they've agreed to. I'm pretty sure that's Trump's actual strategy.

GAC06 said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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That is a forecast

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For this year

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Forecasts predict. Often they predict very wrong from actual numbers. 2023 is the last actual numbers we have.

But what is the question here? Are you making the argument we don't carry the water for the organization? That's a losing argument, no matter what graph you wanna cite.

You quoted the argument I made. Maybe just go back and read it again.

So yes...we carry the water. Perhaps it's time to have the conversation (like this thread)

Carry the water? We clearly spend a lot more.

I want NATO countries to honor their commitments, and it seems they are on their way finally.

As for Ukraine, Europe is doing quite a bit, as they should.

European countries lead the way for aid to Ukraine
• Europe's support stands at €118bn, or around 40% more than America's (€85bn)
• EU war fatigue may be overstated, with support for Kyiv still high in many states pic.twitter.com/7t9JGmpf7u

— Agathe Demarais (@AgatheDemarais) December 9, 2024

Also, NATO responded the only time a NATO country invoked article five

GAC06 said:

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Carry the water? We clearly spend a lot more.

I want NATO countries to honor their commitments, and it seems they are on their way finally.

As for Ukraine, Europe is doing quite a bit, as they should.

European countries lead the way for aid to Ukraine
• Europe's support stands at €118bn, or around 40% more than America's (€85bn)
• EU war fatigue may be overstated, with support for Kyiv still high in many states pic.twitter.com/7t9JGmpf7u

— Agathe Demarais (@AgatheDemarais) December 9, 2024

Also, NATO responded the only time a NATO country invoked article five

---

I want NATO countries to honor their commitments, and it seems they are on their way finally.

Ummm. wat? No. They have been robbing us blind since WW2. How much did the Marshall Plan cost? How much would it cost now?

"Umm what no" isn't a compelling argument. Try again.

GAC06 said:

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"Umm what no" isn't a compelling argument. Try again.

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I want NATO countries to honor their commitments, and it seems they are on their way finally.

cite your sources? There are several "NATO" countries that are shirking the responsibilities of the charter. These members should fear for the safety of their nations. We didnt do this things as a pinky promise. Pay up or dont.

Read the thread. Good lord.

GAC06 said:

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Read the thread. Good lord.

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They aren't "on their way" to finally pay enough to the defense pact that they have unfairly exploited for the last 70 years -- they are being held accountable by a POTUS that has the stones to call them out for being absolute bums in the deal. They didn't trip over a nickle and, in consternation, wonder where It came from and who it belonged to after all of these years.

Leverage, when you know how to use it, is a powerful motivator, no matter how gay the media tries to shame Trump from wielding it.

We have a big stick, this country and it's people do. We dont need ******ed people that you voted for trying to negotiate trade deals with other countries, that much is clear.

They're on their way to pay the GDP percentage they pledged to pay.

They are paying more than us to suppport Ukraine.

They responded to our call when we called for NATO to respond to an attack on a NATO country. They fought and died for us.

GAC06 said:

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They're on their way to pay the GDP percentage they pledged to pay.

They are paying more than us to suppport Ukraine.

They responded to our call when we called for NATO to respond to an attack on a NATO country. They fought and died for us.

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If it tell you I'm "on the way" to your house, and still don't show up after 70 years, who is the fool?

Me for saying I'll be there soon or you for still believing me?

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Staying with NATO is stupid recency bias. We've fought wars against

England twice
France once
Italy once
Germany twice
Spain once


We've also fought for Russia once.
Fought along side Russia once.


The entire NATO premise defend Europe from Russia is a grift to steal money from the respective citizens.

There's no reason why Europe including Russia and united states can't all be Allie's other than special interest groups make a TON of money continuing the "Cold War".

---

Exactly........the truth!

BadMoonRisin said:

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GAC06 said:

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They're on their way to pay the GDP percentage they pledged to pay.

They are paying more than us to suppport Ukraine.

They responded to our call when we called for NATO to respond to an attack on a NATO country. They fought and died for us.

---

If it tell you I'm "on the way" to your house, and still don't show up after 70 years, who is the fool?

Me for saying I'll be there soon or you for still believing me?

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NATO fought and died for us. You're not even on your way to making a point.

BadMoonRisin said:

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GAC06 said:

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Carry the water? We clearly spend a lot more.

I want NATO countries to honor their commitments, and it seems they are on their way finally.

As for Ukraine, Europe is doing quite a bit, as they should.

European countries lead the way for aid to Ukraine
• Europe's support stands at €118bn, or around 40% more than America's (€85bn)
• EU war fatigue may be overstated, with support for Kyiv still high in many states pic.twitter.com/7t9JGmpf7u

— Agathe Demarais (@AgatheDemarais) December 9, 2024

Also, NATO responded the only time a NATO country invoked article five

---

I want NATO countries to honor their commitments, and it seems they are on their way finally.

Ummm. wat? No. They have been robbing us blind since WW2. How much did the Marshall Plan cost? How much would it cost now?

---

Explain how NATO has been "robbing us blind".

Also explain how our economy would have been better had we NOT done the Marshall Plan.

BadMoonRisin said:

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GAC06 said:

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They're on their way to pay the GDP percentage they pledged to pay.

They are paying more than us to suppport Ukraine.

They responded to our call when we called for NATO to respond to an attack on a NATO country. They fought and died for us.

---

If it tell you I'm "on the way" to your house, and still don't show up after 70 years, who is the fool?

Me for saying I'll be there soon or you for still believing me?

---

They showed up after 9/11 and a number of their soldiers died helping us.

Heck no we don't need to get out of NATO. Where do you come up with this stuff?

Yukon Cornelius said:

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HarleySpoon said:

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Are you including wars before the USA even existed….the French & Indian war? Are you considering occupied France an enemy? When has the the USA ever traded bullets with non-occupied France?

---

No.

We started a naval war with France because we refused to pay them for their services during the American revolution. So French navy vessels started seizing cargo ships to procure the money owed. And then a short naval war broke out.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War

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Oh my goodness. Never, ever, have I heard of that part of our history. That is fascinating. Thank you very much!

93MarineHorn said:

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What value does NATO membership give the US? The best answer I can come up with is that it is a HUGE disincentive for Russia and other non-members to attack another NATO member state. It arguably creates a more stable world. That's about it. The downside is that we can be drug into any conflict involving a member.

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The US drug NATO into a conflict in 2001.

nortex97 said:

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But 2 percent of Luxembourg's (or Latvia or whatever) budget should determine whether we spend another trillion dollars basing folks in Europe over the next decade!

It's all so funny. Fend for yourself, bro's, that's how the world works and always has.

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No, that's not it. Alliances have been the key to holding power for a very long time.

GAC06 said:

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AgGrad99 said:

---

GAC06 said:

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No, we should not leave NATO. That's ridiculous. Now if enough countries flat out refuse to do their part, then we can talk about it.

---

Sooooo....we should talk about it?

---

No. Your info is out of date.

Which NATO members spend the most or the least on defence?
• Poland, Estonia, US, Latvia and Greece top charts, with spending >3% of GDP
• Spain, Slovenia and Luxembourg sit at bottom, with spending <1.5% of GDP pic.twitter.com/POmpUxW99G

— Agathe Demarais (@AgatheDemarais) December 5, 2024

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LOL so in 2023, most were far below the 2% of the GDP target but in 2024 most are projected to hit it. Here is your sign!

We should be in NATO. We need more nations in NATO. Of course they need to pay their fair share.