Do you think America should leave NATO?

11,039 Views | 181 Replies | Last: 3 days ago by nortex97
nortex97
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"The absurdity of Nato worrying about Russia."
Quote:

As you can see, the EU is 3x as populous and much wealthier than Russia, so if it were true that Russia could invade Europe and defeat the EU countries or NATO without the United States, it is only due to the fact that the European countries are weenies unwilling to defend themselves. Worse, it would mean that they are bloodsuckers who have been grifting off US generosity and unwilling to defend even their own territory, counting entirely on us.

I am not hostile to NATO, but Trump is right that we are being played for suckers. Not just by the European countries themselves, who, after all, are just being rational. If the United States is willing to blow big bucks to defend them, it just makes sense for them to let us. Even Trump understands that; he just doesn't like being on the wrong end of the deal.

It's the foreign policy establishment who are the ones we should be more disgusted with. Their scaremongering is all about strengthening the transnational elite, which is even more powerful in Europe than in the United States. There is a reason that the WEF meets in Davos and not Aspen--ESG and woke are super entrenched over there, and the technocratic elite is more firmly ensconced there.

European elites are further along in the so-called "Great Reset," with Net Zero, open borders, transnationalism, and the suppression of the working classes deeply entrenched. Governments are already seizing farmland, deindustrializing, shutting down power plants, and building an elite utopia and working-class dystopia that the corporate and government elites keep talking about.

NATO keeps the United States tied closely to Europe, and the elite's "NATO at all costs" attitude leads to bizarre situations where European countries try to dictate social policies, such as creeping censorship through EU regulations. It's the tail wagging the dog.

I am not anti-NATO at all. As a dyed-in-the-wool anticommunist, I was a big fan of the alliance during the Cold War and never thought about disengaging with NATO in the decades since the USSR's fall. I still think that, all things being equal, we are likely better off with NATO than not.

But not if it means we are hostage to European diktats through EU regulation or bullying.

They owe us, not the other way around.

Any claim that Europe would fall to Russia without US military support is absurd. We could disengage over a few years, giving these countries time to build up their weapons stockpiles, and they should be fine. If they really would lose a war with Russia, that is really pathetic.
All true.

Many more salient points, more at the link.
nortex97
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Benz points out something that came up in this thread:

In reply to Orban's note about Soros NGO's going to Brussels and Nato to get cash now that Trump has defunded them.


We need to end our involvement in Nato.
Tom Kazansky 2012
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YouBet said:

knoxtom said:

CrackerJackAg said:

Realistically, Russia is not a threat to the United States from a physical standpoint

We should absolutely be involved in NATO but other countries need to foot most of the bill.

That is the only answer


Would Russia be a threat if they took over Ukraine, Poland, Moldova, and Finland? It would not take long if NATO disappears.

Putin actually respects and slightly fears the whole NATO idea. He wants Ukraine as they will become an oil nation in the next few years and they are the path into Poland. He wants to develop the oil fields rather than give them to Exxon. His current border is a very difficult one to defend but by adding the western Ukrainian mountain ranges, he shores up that border and has easy access to Poland. So you take us out of NATO and expect those countries to fall fast. From there he will build the pipeline across Syria and shore up his resources for the next 25 years.

Taking Ukraine would also allow him to open the water supply to the Crimean peninsula and turn the crops back on. ALL Crimean water came from a single canal that the Ukrainians filled with concrete. Now it is trucked in. Putin steps in and it is rebuilt quickly. Do we want to help him do that?

So what is cheaper, foot more than our fair share of the NATO bill, or watch Putin rebuild the empire?

When would you want America to stand up to him? Do we let him have the Ukrainian oil fields and defensible border? Do we let him go into Poland followed by Moldova? Do we then let him step into Finland? Better answer this before you give up on NATO.






Europes GDP is 15x that of Russia and their population is 4x of Russia.

They can handle this if they want to. The problem is that they are maxing out Daddy's credit card as adults and don't want to lose that.
Tom Kazansky 2012
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Aggie1205 said:

Yukon Cornelius said:



Russians are the 4th largest Christian nation. I think we have far more in common with the Russian people.

It's the communists and Bolsheviks and another special interest group that are the enemy.

We had the US army inside Russia fighting against the Bolsheviks. Americans died for Russia. Let's not be so hasty to paint with broad brushes. Like my first post in this thread. Much of the geopolitical ideology on who the bad and good guys are is just recency bias's.


The religious leader for the Russian church is also nothing more than a puppet for Putin. They had a lower % of people claiming Christianity than Ukraine.

Is Russia really somewhere that is close to the US? No freedom of the press, they are rapidly nationalizing private business, have a dictator, and just put in a law very similar to the article 58 law that existed under Stalin where any kind of negative remark against the government can send someone to jail. I'm always surprised when people who claim to be conservative seem to support the nationalizing on private business. Gun rights are also restricted there compared to the US.

They also have invaded or demanding land from most of their neighbors in the last 105 years, plus held eastern Europe under their boot for decades. When under their rule, they practiced the Russification or other cultures trying to wipe them out.





You just described England and Germany as well
Herknav
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//US used to belong to SEATO (Southeast Asia Treaty Organization), Australia, Philippines, Japan, France and others while the Cold War was going on. After Vietnam war, it just kind of went away without much explanation. I believe the Carter administration was trying to limit foreign entanglements. NATO is a traditional, useful military alliance that ties the US to it's European ancestors and has provided a peaceful northern hemisphere since ww2. As that popularity wanes, with a more diverse US population base going forward, the validity of the organization will be questioned. Especially if members don't pony there fair share.//just my thoughts//
//Herknav sends//
ts5641
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hoopla said:

Even if NATO allies don't "pay their fair share"?
Yes! **** them!
nortex97
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ts5641 said:

hoopla said:

Even if NATO allies don't "pay their fair share"?
Yes! **** them!
We get caught up on various 'technical' issues that really aren't a big deal, imho. I don't care if Sweden spends 2 percent of their GDP on defense. Whatever. Their spend is really (a) their business, and (b) pretty inefficient as they procure as much as possible from high cost Swedish defense manufacturers, for example.

USAID, as a CIA-Nato cut out, funded around 40 billion as well. Maybe the EU/Nato will make up 10 billion now that we cut that. I hope not, but that's not something that will show up in any member's defense budget. The bottom line is Nato doesn't serve our interests any longer, and we should just get out and let the Euro's sort it out like adults. There's some question as to whether Trump would be able to withdraw from Nato absent congressional approval, but I don't think that really matters either. He can and should functionally defenestrate it:
Quote:

Either way, the question of whether Trump has the power to withdraw from NATO means venturing into largely uncharted legal waters. "Ultimately, it is uncertain how a court would rule on the constitutional distribution of treaty withdrawal power based on its analysis of the Constitution's text and structure, relevant Supreme Court precedent, and historical interbranch practice," Sokol concluded.

Trump may not need to formally withdraw from NATO to damage it. For example, a wargame run by British experts last year found that Trump could sabotage the alliance simply by having America do less. This could include minimizing US participation in NATO exercises or restricting American officers serving as NATO commanders. The effects of a US pullback would be global and hard to predict.
 
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