74OA said:81% of Americans are of non-Latino ancestry including 58% of European ancestry, while only 19% are of Latino heritage. We're a long way from your imagined apocalypse.........YouBet said:Quote:
Europe is also the motherland of most of our ancestry. No matter how screwed up Europe is politically, you cannot ignore that we still, with a few exceptions, have far more in common culturally with Europe than any other region in the world. If Europe were to fall to Russia or simply become alienated from the US, the world would become a far more dangerous place for us. We are much stronger with Europe by our side than without them.
I've brought this point up before. This will no longer be true in a few decades. What then? Latinos were 51% of all births from 2010-2020. Will our Hispanic majority country that all hail from the Western Hemisphere really give a damn about spending blood and treasure on a continent that is wholly irrelevant to them?
This is one of the reasons I'm for pivoting back to the Western Hemisphere now. We will soon be a country with a majority that has no ties to Europe. We need to get our own backyard cleaned up or prepped ahead of that reality.
Demographics are destiny.
TRIDENT said:
Yes
WBBQ74 said:
No permanent allies, only permanent interests.
2025 is not 1945 or 1955 or 1985. Russia has plenty of their own problems to deal with. USA needs a generation to get its own house in order. NATO is a relic and needs to be scrapped and replaced with something MUCH more financially viable. UN is a joke and should be moved to Geneva.
Turning over the USAISD rock has exposed the money/grifting trail and nothing will be the same going forward. Follow the money, cut it off, and then take a good look at who is doing what for whom.
Rebuild the US Navy; we are going to need it.
TriAg2010 said:WBBQ74 said:
No permanent allies, only permanent interests.
2025 is not 1945 or 1955 or 1985. Russia has plenty of their own problems to deal with. USA needs a generation to get its own house in order. NATO is a relic and needs to be scrapped and replaced with something MUCH more financially viable. UN is a joke and should be moved to Geneva.
Turning over the USAISD rock has exposed the money/grifting trail and nothing will be the same going forward. Follow the money, cut it off, and then take a good look at who is doing what for whom.
Rebuild the US Navy; we are going to need it.
These two points are quite the contrast. Mutual defense *is* cheaper than going it alone. Europe should carry more of the cost for its own security, but NATO has absolutely allowed us to achieve our interest at a discount over the long run.
It's just remarkable to see many posts which could be paraphrased "I love peace very much, which is why we should end the Ukraine war on terms favorable to the aggressor and also dissolve the alliance that produced the longest enduring peace among European powers." I don't think there is so much love for peace as there is simply disdain for obligations.
You mean let them like little Alps climber fall off the mountain to their death ??Quote:
Give NATO the Price is Right strategy and bid $1…
Since we were not into building empires and establishing colonies outside of our boundaries, we have a history wherein we pretty much sucked at doing that, as a government.Quote:
You forgot the part about getting something for the billions sent there.
hoopla said:CrackerJackAg said:
Realistically, Russia is not a threat to the United States from a physical standpoint
They have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world pointed at us.
No Spin Ag said:Teslag said:
"Yes, 100%" - Russia, North Korea, China, and Iran
And Putin sycophants.
PA24 said:
Christianity is stronger in Russia than Europe but that is not the only reason I would leave NATO.
If Europe can't defend itself from the invasion of middle eastern and African immigrants, then I really don't think they make good partners.
The same NATO helped us in Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11?Aquin said:
Do you honestly think that any of the NATO members would come to our aid if Russia attacked us and only us? I will hang up and listen.
ReturnOfTheAg said:PA24 said:
Christianity is stronger in Russia than Europe but that is not the only reason I would leave NATO.
If Europe can't defend itself from the invasion of middle eastern and African immigrants, then I really don't think they make good partners.
Christianity? Or Christian Nationalism?
I seem to recall Patriarch Kirill, who is the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, calling this war a Holy War.
AND
That Russia is "protecting the world from the onslaught of globalism and the victory of the West, which has fallen into Satanism"
The entire clergy of the Russian Orthodox Church is made up of corrupt oligarchs that are in lockstep with the Kremlin that bask in excessive wealth and use their form of "Christianity" to propagandize the Kremlin's aims.
🚨NEW: Zelensky tells reporters that he is, "ready to sign" the U.S. Mineral deal, again.
— Walter Curt (@WCdispatch_) March 3, 2025
Hell no.
Tell the UK we’re withdrawing from NATO if they deploy troops, and turn the UN building into a homeless shelter if they complain.
You came to our country, made a scene with the… pic.twitter.com/L3xrWb5n45
BREAKING: Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) is calling for the United States to withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) as several European nations continue to reject President Trump’s calls for peace in Ukraine.
— Proud Elephant 🇺🇸🦅 (@ProudElephantUS) March 3, 2025
DO YOU SUPPORT THIS?https://t.co/oBEvCvRvND
🚨 BREAKING: Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna says the U.S. must leave NATO because it prioritizes a "globalist agenda that is America last."
— Eric Daugherty (@EricLDaugh) March 3, 2025
"The US should not send one more dollar to these orgs [NATO and UN] & countries. NATO is pushing to drag the US into WW3 but they're not… pic.twitter.com/nLBkhdNVqZ
Steps for USA to leave NATO
— Richard Crowe (@SocraticQuant) March 3, 2025
For the United States to exit NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization), several steps would need to be taken, primarily involving legal, political, and diplomatic processes. Here’s a breakdown of what would be required:
1. Legal Authority and…
In short, POTUS won't need congressional approval, but has to play the politics right (likely in peace negotiations can include it).Quote:
2. Presidential Decision
The president, as commander-in-chief and head of foreign policy, would need to decide to exit NATO. This could stem from a policy shiftsay, prioritizing unilateralism or reducing overseas commitments (e.g., an "America First" stance). The president would then notify NATO's depository (the U.S. itself, ironically) and other allies, starting the one-year clock.
3. Domestic Political Support
Public Opinion: NATO enjoys broad support among Americans, with polls (e.g., Chicago Council on Global Affairs, 2023) showing over 70% favorability. A president pushing for withdrawal would need to sway public opinion or risk political backlash.
Partisan Dynamics: Exit would likely face fierce opposition from both parties' establishment wings, though some populist factions might support it. Building a coalition in Congress to either back the move or at least not obstruct it would be critical.
4. Diplomatic and Strategic Considerations
Allied Reactions: The U.S. provides about 70% of NATO's military capability. Allies like the UK, France, and Germany would likely pressure the U.S. to stay, fearing a security vacuum. Russia, meanwhile, might cheer the move. Managing these relationships during the one-year withdrawal period would be complex.
Alternative Security Arrangements: The U.S. might need to replace NATO with bilateral deals or a new framework, especially for issues like collective defense or nuclear deterrence in Europe.
5. Practical Steps
Formal Notification: The president would submit a written notice to NATO, deposited with the U.S. State Department, per Article 13.
Military Disentanglement: The U.S. would need to withdraw troops, equipment, and funding from NATO commands (e.g., SHAPE in Belgium) and joint operations, a logistical nightmare given bases like Ramstein in Germany.
Budget Reallocation: The U.S. contributes roughly $500 million annually to NATO's budget (about 16% of the total). Congress would need to redirect those funds.
Potential Triggers
A major geopolitical shift (e.g., European allies refusing U.S. demands) or domestic isolationist surge could spark the push. Critics might argue NATO's Cold War roots are outdated, while supporters would counter it deters Russia and China.
Timeline
Once notice is given, the U.S. would be out in one yearsay, March 3, 2026, if started today, March 3, 2025. Until then, it's still bound by Article 5 (collective defense).
Lol. That’s nice.
— The Redheaded libertarian (@TRHLofficial) March 3, 2025
1. Congress has 17 powers under article I, section 8. The power to determine by super majority which treaties a President can and cannot withdraw from is not one of them.
2. Congress unilaterally tried to grant themselves this power, unconstitutionally.
3.… https://t.co/fOJEcIQ2Sl
NATO is an albatross https://t.co/JhbrRxhd7p
— Mike Lee (@BasedMikeLee) March 27, 2025
No one is talking about this part of the Signal call, but in many ways it’s the most important revelation.
— Ari Fleischer (@AriFleischer) March 27, 2025
European Navy ships are militarily incapable of defending against Houthi attacks. A rag tag militia built by Iran is stronger than French, British, etc navies.
Disgraceful pic.twitter.com/mq33ojW2sT
NATO Soros. Soros NATO https://t.co/WQomVk84E0
— Mike Benz (@MikeBenzCyber) March 30, 2025
NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte:
— Clash Report (@clashreport) March 27, 2025
Yes, Europe needs to know that Uncle Sam still has our back. But America also needs to know that its NATO allies will step up and play their full part.
Reassurance is a two-way street.
The U.S. commitment to NATO comes with a clear… pic.twitter.com/SXVkNFMtRS
Baerbock has visited China — which is erasing the Uyghur community — and Syria — which installs Sharia law, and dozens of other places with massive human rights issues. But Netanyahu’s visit to an EU member is a dark day for international law?
— David Wurmser (@Wurmserscribit) April 3, 2025
Spare us the feigned indignation. https://t.co/IjmNFnGD3e
It's not an 'ally' in any tangible way worth spending money, let alone blood to defend.Quote:
Europe is not committed to Western values. It is speeding headlong into a future where Chinese values and policies are fully adopted in their own countries. Except ironically, they are worse in many ways. Because China at least defends its own borders against invasions, while European leaders are importing enemies of their own people are astounding--even terrifying--rates.
Well put, by David Strom.Quote:
For decades I was an enthusiastic supporter of our partnership with Europe. I admired Thatcher's Britain and even tolerated the French despite their absolute arrogance.
But I am sick and tired of them. Angry at them. Disgusted by their descent into soft tyranny.
These people are not our friends. They hate us, make no bones about it, and demand we bend to their will.
If these countries pulled their weight in NATO they wouldn't have to increase their defense spending nearly a trillion dollars just to stand up to Russia. Their population is 3x Russia's, their economies 10x the size, and yet they worry that Russia could overrun their countries.
That is pathetic. They are the 30-something ne'ere-do-well children living in their parent's basement screaming that their family doesn't understand them and support them enough as they play video games.
"I am a soldier on Call of Duty."
Americans are tired of it all. To have Volodymir Zelensky lecture Trump about how we should put US boots on the ground in Ukraine after he campaigned for Kamala Harris is insulting. To have Kier Starmer make demands after he sent 100 Labour operatives to campaign for Harris is a joke.
I am willing to work with them, but if they need our help, they should act as junior partners, not the wise, all-knowing guides to whom we must bow and whom we must obey.
I'm sick of it. Millions of Americans are sick of it.
Kier Starmer says that if he has to choose between a partnership with America and one with Davos he would choose Davos.
Well, in return, if we have to choose between Europe and freedom, I choose freedom.
Which is because NATO's budget is only $3.6 billion, so our overhead costs of basing/staging/training soldiers in Europe, and maintaining those bases and airfields/armor training grounds etc. is excluded from the comparison/analyses.74OA said:
The US only pays 16% (~$3.5B) of NATO's annual operating budget as each country's contribution is based on its GDP.
So, only a miniscule fraction of annual US military spending ($842B) is for NATO alone, the vast preponderance of funding is for general-purpose forces available to protect all of our varied interests around the globe.
If NATO disappeared tomorrow, the US defense budget would remain essentially unchanged because the global threats to our national interests would also remain unchanged.
My swag is that this excludes the billions to Ukraine grifting or our 'aid' to suppress populists in Germany, Hungary, Slovakia, France etc. Ending all of that (thankfully USAID is now shuttered) would save us closer to $200 billion a year at least, would be my guess.Quote:
Approximately 10-15% of the U.S. defense budget is allocated to Europe. This allocation includes funding for military operations, bases, and partnerships as part of NATO commitments and other security measures.
The U.S. defense budget for the fiscal year 2023 was around $816 billion. This suggests that between $81.6 billion and $122.4 billion is directed towards Europe. This expenditure encompasses various aspects, such as:
- Military Presence: The U.S. maintains bases in several European countries, including Germany, Italy, and the U.K. These bases facilitate quick troop deployment and sustain U.S. military readiness in the region.
- NATO Contributions: The U.S. plays a leading role in NATO, contributing significantly to its budget. In 2021, U.S. contributions accounted for about 22% of NATO's common funding.
- Joint Exercises and Training: The U.S. funds joint military exercises with European allies. Such activities enhance interoperability between U.S. forces and NATO allies.
74OA said:
No, we're not spending $200B to defend Europe and you yelling otherwise doesn't make it so.
The Europeans have indeed been feckless and slow to respond to the changing security environment but, to their belated credit, they are finally doing so.
The EU has just approved an 800B Euro common fund to reinvigorate European defense production, 24 of 31 NATO allies are now at or above the 2% of GDP defense spending guideline (up from just three in 2014) and many have agreed to go to 3.5%, and NATO is currently pursuing a 30% increase in weapons and equipment stockpiles, too. As a further example, Germany has just gone so far as to amend its constitution to remove the "debt brake" on defense spending which now has no ceiling on it.
It should have happened much earlier, but now that it has, we should take the win and continue to lead NATO.
