A Net Full of Jello said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Now I'm trying to remember my high school class's top students:

1. Female (Vietnamese)
2. Male (Cuban)
3. Me = Male (White)
4 & 5 (don't remember which order): Female (White) & Male (Indian)

Diverse, but gender-balanced.

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We had
1. Female (Ginger)
2. Female (hispanic)
3. Male (white)
4. Female (white)


It's a bit dishonest, though. Everyone know #3 was easily the brightest in our class. He was taking senior math his freshman year and got some obscene score on his SAT (like a 1580 or something) and a perfect on his ACT. He didn't want to give a speech, though, so he calculated how he could drop to be number 3 in the class and not give a speech. He now lives is Boca Raton and makes money as a poker player. I hear he's pretty good.

The valedictorian is a former teacher/coach turned stay-at-home-mom, the salutatorian flitted about from one job to another but never really climbed the ladder or did much of anything and now works a part-time job in an office so she can be there for her kids. And the number 4 really flamed out.

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Damn, you really don't like gingers to be singling them out from whites.

AJ02 said:

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It's interesting that now it's "education is catered to women."

When I was in highschool in the 90s, that was definitely not true. We had an actual science & engineering course track and competitive team. Guess who was in it? All guys. Guess who they didn't even approach to ask if I was interested, despite being #2 in my class, scoring perfect ACT science score, all As from kinder through 12th grade, and going on to a STEM degree at A&M? Me. A girl. We just weren't thought of when it came to STEM in highschool. Despite that, our top 5 graduates were:
#1 - male, Asian
#2 - male, white
# 3 - female, white (I was #2 in my class until very last semester)
#4 - female, white
#5 - female, white

None of the females were in the science & engineering group.

So yeah, it's interesting how it's all flipped and excuses are being made for why boys aren't succeeding as much. When girls have been fighting against the disadvantages for decades and overcoming DESPITE that.

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Was the team kept secret from you? Was it an invite-only team? If so, then you have a point.

If not, then you're demonstrating exactly why you, as an individual, -not because of your sex- weren't asked.

Invite only

A Net Full of Jello said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Now I'm trying to remember my high school class's top students:

1. Female (Vietnamese)
2. Male (Cuban)
3. Me = Male (White)
4 & 5 (don't remember which order): Female (White) & Male (Indian)

Diverse, but gender-balanced.

---

We had
1. Female (Ginger)
2. Female (hispanic)
3. Male (white)
4. Female (white)


It's a bit dishonest, though. Everyone know #3 was easily the brightest in our class. He was taking senior math his freshman year and got some obscene score on his SAT (like a 1580 or something) and a perfect on his ACT. He didn't want to give a speech, though, so he calculated how he could drop to be number 3 in the class and not give a speech. He now lives is Boca Raton and makes money as a poker player. I hear he's pretty good.

The valedictorian is a former teacher/coach turned stay-at-home-mom, the salutatorian flitted about from one job to another but never really climbed the ladder or did much of anything and now works a part-time job in an office so she can be there for her kids. And the number 4 really flamed out.

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I will play

1. Male (indian)
2-5 three females one male all white except one Indian gal. We had a small indian community at our school.

Our 1 went to Harvard and died his Junior year of cancer. It was very sad and I still 30 years later think about him from time to time. The world lost a special person that day. He was a very unique person that was friends with everyone from the other braniacs to the criminals and everyone in between. He would help struggling kids with their work, black or white or whatever, every day. He was hilarious too and an all district tennis player. He had it all and was lost to brain cancer. Cancer sucks. His memorial was held at our high school and just about our entire graduating class came back for it. Really Amazing.

2-5 two doctors, a stay at home mom, and an athletic director at a high school. All good folks.


I really just wanted to tell yall about our 1.

AJ02 said:

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aggie93 said:

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Maybe you can list these disadvantages for women in STEM besides not having someone ask you to join a club. No one ever asked my son to join Robotics, he just wanted to do it and applied.

I can tell you that I get a bonus for every female engineer I hire as a recruiter. Management is heavily incentivized around it. Every HR and company meeting talks about it. There are massive numbers of scholarships exclusively for women in STEM and engineering. There are tons of networking groups only for women. As I mentioned before many Engineering schools will give significant preference to females, at Duke they get double credit in the evaluation for entry for instance. Those are actual biases and advantages for women.

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It wasn't an "ask to join and you're admitted" or "apply to join and get selected." It was a group of teachers meeting together and determining who they were picking to join the program.

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Sounds like an unusual club but I suppose there are those. I never knew of any clubs that operated that way in HS in the '80s and my sons don't have any to my knowledge now that I know of. Teachers of course have biases, my son's female Physics teacher is extremely rude to boys and praises girls for instance. The Robotics teacher selects the captains and chose 2 females on a team that is 65/35 male and neither are very good technically or very well respected. Just have to fight through it.

I know going back to the 90s though there were a lot of female STEM clubs and scholarships though and colleges and companies have bent over backwards to accept them or hire them. It's just now completely ingrained to the point that people don't blink an eye.

Makes me think a lot about Thomas Sowell and how he hated Affirmative Action because he graduated from Harvard before it. He went from people looking up to him and assuming he had to be super smart to be a Black guy going to Harvard to people looking at his Degree a couple decades later and assuming he only got it because he was Black. Merit is always the best measure, all else eventually leads to bad outcomes.

tysker said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

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I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

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They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

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There are plenty of unqualified managers in all fields. I think there is a difference between an academically high-achieving student, and a high-quality worker, and a high-quality manager. The skills to be good in the classroom are different than those trying to manage people in a high-stress business environment. Women may produce less in the workforce and often dont obtain managerial or executive roles for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they make different choices about family and children than men do. But in school and college, from an academic standpoint, the studies suggest females perform about as well as their male classmates.

So the average female engineer isnt as high as male, but what about the variance? Are the worst female engineers on par with the worst males?

Also, why would a woman want a career as an engineer? Have you met an engineer? I guess you have, so you know how painfully boring and creepy it is for others. Well, imagine being a smart and averagely attractive woman surrounded by 20 or 30 of those people on a daily basis. Women have and make choices that men do not.

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And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the main reasons why women don't go into STEM fields as much as men. There is tremendous peer pressure coming from females against women going into STEM fields or having STEM hobbies.

You'll see teachers, parents, and peers clap their hands when a woman scores a point against the men by getting a STEM award or position. However, when it comes down to accepting a woman who likes the STEM side of things socially, the majority of women will reject her.

Women don't like other women who step too far outside their own accepted "woman mold" and will ostracize any woman who take that step. This is true both in social and work settings, including STEM work settings.

Women, as a whole, sabotage and denigrate women much more than men do.

I do love the engineers=painfully boring and creepy comment. You must be channeling Ann Landers.

ds00 said:

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aggie93 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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I don't know. The Catholic Church I attended the other day announced scholarships after mass. All 10 were female. This church is not some some parish that prioritizes females over males.

I think technology is making young males stupid and lazy. Combined with the lack of opportunity to "learn the hard way" from parents willing to be a constant backstop, young men today lack the drive of previous generations, IMO. Fear of failure paralyzes them into indecision. It's a strange phenomenon that I've seen with a LOT of young men.

I have 4 boys and 2 girls. Just speaking from my observation.

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Men do better on all standardized tests across the board, so no men are not dumber. School is heavily female biased and frankly boring as hell for most men. High school was a joke for me and that was 25 years ago. I doubt much has changed in schools about how easy it is. There is no reason to work when school is this easy.

I never really had to try until later classes at A&M and then grad school. Once I did I got almost all A's.

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I'm speaking to their motivations (which are stupid). They're no longer motivated to be successful and raise a family.

True happiness is delayed as they prefer to sit in front of a screen and game all day. It delays their maturation.

We can sit here and ***** about how hard boys have it, but their success ultimately starts at home. Parents coddle these dumbasses and then complain about how hard it is for them.

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Please tell me more about maturity when women are addicted to social media validation to a hilariously greater extent than men. Yeah it's just men who are immature and women definitely aren't told they are little princesses who can do no wrong and crater at the first sign of constructive criticism.

Gaming is not an issue. I played video games an enormous amount as a kid and I am married with kids of my own now. That is not and never was the problem, but people like you, who don't understand the real issues, blame games for making boys not care anymore despite the overwhelming evidence that most of these boys are told they are basically evil from birth and are worthless while watching women get every single major opportunity. Yeah I'm sure that had no effect upon how these boys viewed school or definitely helped pushed them to try harder.

As a parent there is only so much you can do to combat general society. I'm raising my boys to understand that nothing will ever be given to them by general society and that the world is likely going to treat them terribly because they are white and male. They will have to scratch and claw for everything in life even if school comes easy. However, I will not remain blissfully ignorant about how society will view them and I will prepare them as much as I can for this.

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Lot of harsh truths here. I have 2 boys, one in college and one in HS and I have gone out of my way to make sure they understand that no one will feel sorry for them, life is unfair, and they will have to just work that much harder than everyone else to succeed. It's worked better than I could have hoped and has given them a superpower. That superpower is they are much tougher than their competition, they brush off failures and it only makes them work harder. They have seen how that works. You get a door slammed and another opens if you keep working, eventually you find people that simply want the harder working person that doesn't sit around and complains, they just do. Very few women are like that because it works against their physiology and hormones that drives emotional behavior.

So much of school is designed around girls and to cater to them. Neither of my boys had what I would consider a masculine teacher until High School. They had 1 gay guy in their Elementary school and an ultra Beta in Middle School. The only masculine guys they saw were coaches. High school has been better but so much is already in place by then. You have to be actively engaged with boys as a parent or else it can end very badly.

It also never ceases to amaze me how much they reward females over males in education, it's even worse than the workforce. STEM is the worst. If a female shows any ability or interest at all they are praised and rewarded. If there is a club or activity they are always given preference both for membership and for leadership. My STEM focused son just kind of laughs about it as he sees the girls barely know what they are doing and constantly make mistakes he has to correct yet win all the awards and get the honors given by the teachers. He brushes it off because he is actually learning and knows what he is doing. Looking at applying to elite Engineering programs at places like Duke and they openly admit that a female gets double consideration over a male. Even a place like MIT is almost 50/50 Male/Female (52/48). If you honestly think that is because of merit for Engineering you need your head examined. That's fine, my son will simply outwork them and find his path.

Of course the sad thing is that I see so many of these women as a recruiter in Tech and they tend to burn out at a much faster rate than the men. Very few women truly love to do complex engineering for a variety of reasons and very few can do it better than men. So often they will pass the first interview but get crushed on the tech screen. Then if they get into management they really struggle with the stress and pace and ruthlessness of it. Jordan Peterson has given some great talks about this, it's just most women simply aren't willing to or don't want to make the level of sacrifices necessary to stay at the top in those worlds and if they do they are rarely happy.

One thing that flat out cracked me up though. I listen to a lot of Podcasts on College Admissions as my younger son is in that cycle. Realize that almost all of the folks that are in Admissions are Liberal Arts Majors that couldn't get a private sector job btw. They are also overwhelmingly female or very Beta male. Anyway, I listened to one where you had a few of them crying and whining about how a male who wants to attend a really good Liberal Arts school now has a significant advantage because there are so few men that want to do so anymore. Not talking about the super elites but the tier just below that. Those schools are all terrified of dropping below 40% male because it is death for them. Once that happens men stop applying and more interestingly so do women. Women want to go where the boys are. If anything men prefer a male dominated environment for college if they can find one. So what has happened is these LA schools are funding all kinds of men's sports and scholarships and doing all they can to get men to come there and it infuriates these College Admin types. Of course they have zero cognitive dissonance about how men feel about women in STEM. They also put very little value on team sports accomplishments but find a girl who is a great Flute player and they swoon.

In the end the key is to make sure your sons don't get discouraged by school and just keep working. If you have daughters make sure they think about what they really want in life and not what society is telling them to want. For both of them try to keep them away from social media and spending time outdoors and active as much as possible and expose them to as many experiences as you can to show them the world is bigger than the bubble they grow up in.

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Seriously? Women aren't cut out for STEM because of "hormones"? In 2024? Hopefully you never get the pleasure of raising daughters.

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Men and women are different physiologically. Sorry that offends you. They have different strengths and weaknesses. There are certainly exceptions on both sides (thus the 80/20 rule) but as a whole ignoring physiology is foolish. I know of some exceptional women Engineers, truly exceptional. It's just most aren't cut out for it because of what they are hardwired to is often in contrast to what makes you successful at it. Same as why men are more rare in other fields.

Tell you what though, if you don't think so then I'm sure you don't think we should even bother having any clubs or scholarships or anything else based on sex. Companies shouldn't try to hire men or women either, just don't even measure it. I'm good with that.

What I am not good with is having it both ways. Either we celebrate each other's differences or we don't. Either we are equal or we aren't. Cherry picking is crap.

tysker said:

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aggie93 said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

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I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

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I am very, very skeptical of those studies. 30 years of experience in Technical recruiting tells me otherwise. You absolutely have women that can outperform men but on the whole that just isn't the case. The areas of STEM women excel the most are Biology. The closer it gets to hardware or embedded programming or EE/ME though the fewer women that are interested or excel in it. Always exceptions of course, the 80/20 rule definitely applies. That said it is kind of like saying you can find some men that are better as Kinder teachers.

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But that's exactly the point: women are generally not inclined to participate in STEM fields, but the ones who do, from an academic standpoint, are basically in line with men. In the workplace, the supposed difference can be seen in that women often don't have the same desire for career advancement as men, and more often than men, they choose their family/children over work.

I think men would be just as good kindergarten teachers as women; there are just fewer who desire to choose that career for various reasons, not the least of which is the low pay and low prestige. 75-80% of high school teachers are female, and that's not because women are better at educating our youth. How many of that 20-25% of male teachers are better "teachers" than their female counterparts?

This is somewhat off-topic, but personally, I think we need more males men Men in the classroom, especially at the JH and HS levels.

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I have spent the last three weeks in a high school classroom. To make a long story very short- had a lot of success-two corporate layoffs-one career change I dont care for-cant retire but can do whatever I want-not willing to relocate(which ends my career). Im 47. Should be able to retire in my early '60s.

My wife is a teacher and I have always thought she had the best/most rewarding job of anyone I know. I also taught a lot in my old corporate role and am spending the rest of the year subbing and working on my teachers cert. I am hoping to teach AP either Gov/Hist/or Econ.

One thing that was very clear from the beginning is the perception of what happens in the schools on here or FB or wherever and what actually happens at schools do not line up in any way shape or form. Not even close. The reality is completely different than the narrative most of the time.

One thing I will say is the cell phone issue is worse, much worse, than most people realize. Controlling cell phone usage is challenge number one for high school kids today. And there is really not a close second. The leaders of tomorrow that are in high school today are the ones that can get it under control. Most cannot. Its insanity.

1-5 all male. To be fair it was an all boys private school where boys could be boys. Competition at the top was fierce. The top 5 were all bros you'd see at the weekend kegger.

1 - Harvard (Dr)
2 - Stanford (Dr)
3 - Stanford (Dr)
4 - Yale (lawyer)
5 - brown (engineer turned finance bro)

tysker said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

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I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

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They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

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There are plenty of unqualified managers in all fields. I think there is a difference between an academically high-achieving student, and a high-quality worker, and a high-quality manager. The skills to be good in the classroom are different than those trying to manage people in a high-stress business environment. Women may produce less in the workforce and often dont obtain managerial or executive roles for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they make different choices about family and children than men do. But in school and college, from an academic standpoint, the studies suggest females perform about as well as their male classmates.

So the average female engineer isnt as high as male, but what about the variance? Are the worst female engineers on par with the worst males?

Also, why would a woman want a career as an engineer? Have you met an engineer? I guess you have, so you know how painfully boring and creepy it is for others. Well, imagine being a smart and averagely attractive woman surrounded by 20 or 30 of those people on a daily basis. Women have and make choices that men do not.

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The worst female engineers are leagues worse than the worst male engineers. The average is much higher for men overall in addition to the fact that men almost exclusively make up the elite.

I don't really care if this offends anyone. The male IQ curve average is a few points higher and overall it's flatter so there are a lot more qualified men than there are women. This is just basic statistics.

ME92 said:

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tysker said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

---

I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

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They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

---

There are plenty of unqualified managers in all fields. I think there is a difference between an academically high-achieving student, and a high-quality worker, and a high-quality manager. The skills to be good in the classroom are different than those trying to manage people in a high-stress business environment. Women may produce less in the workforce and often dont obtain managerial or executive roles for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they make different choices about family and children than men do. But in school and college, from an academic standpoint, the studies suggest females perform about as well as their male classmates.

So the average female engineer isnt as high as male, but what about the variance? Are the worst female engineers on par with the worst males?

Also, why would a woman want a career as an engineer? Have you met an engineer? I guess you have, so you know how painfully boring and creepy it is for others. Well, imagine being a smart and averagely attractive woman surrounded by 20 or 30 of those people on a daily basis. Women have and make choices that men do not.

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And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the main reasons why women don't go into STEM fields as much as men. There is tremendous peer pressure coming from females against women going into STEM fields or having STEM hobbies.

You'll see teachers, parents, and peers clap their hands when a woman scores a point against the men by getting a STEM award or position. However, when it comes down to accepting a woman who likes the STEM side of things socially, the majority of women will reject her.

Women don't like other women who step too far outside their own accepted "woman mold" and will ostracize any woman who take that step. This is true both in social and work settings, including STEM work settings.

Women, as a whole, sabotage and denigrate women much more than men do.

I do love the engineers=painfully boring and creepy comment. You must be channeling Ann Landers.

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Given the choice women won't generally choose to be an engineer. The reality is that there IS an IQ difference between men and women of a few IQ points on average and the male curve is a lot flatter than the female one.

Women generally choose engineering a lot more in countries with huge male/female cultural disparate like Iran, India, or elsewhere in the Middle East while they reject it in egalitarian nations like ours. Think about that for a minute.

ME92 said:

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tysker said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

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I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

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They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

---

There are plenty of unqualified managers in all fields. I think there is a difference between an academically high-achieving student, and a high-quality worker, and a high-quality manager. The skills to be good in the classroom are different than those trying to manage people in a high-stress business environment. Women may produce less in the workforce and often dont obtain managerial or executive roles for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they make different choices about family and children than men do. But in school and college, from an academic standpoint, the studies suggest females perform about as well as their male classmates.

So the average female engineer isnt as high as male, but what about the variance? Are the worst female engineers on par with the worst males?

Also, why would a woman want a career as an engineer? Have you met an engineer? I guess you have, so you know how painfully boring and creepy it is for others. Well, imagine being a smart and averagely attractive woman surrounded by 20 or 30 of those people on a daily basis. Women have and make choices that men do not.

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And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the main reasons why women don't go into STEM fields as much as men. There is tremendous peer pressure coming from females against women going into STEM fields or having STEM hobbies.

You'll see teachers, parents, and peers clap their hands when a woman scores a point against the men by getting a STEM award or position. However, when it comes down to accepting a woman who likes the STEM side of things socially, the majority of women will reject her.

Women don't like other women who step too far outside their own accepted "woman mold" and will ostracize any woman who take that step. This is true both in social and work settings, including STEM work settings.

Women, as a whole, sabotage and denigrate women much more than men do.

I do love the engineers=painfully boring and creepy comment. You must be channeling Ann Landers.

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It's been a while, so I may be misstating somewhat, but the studies I reference also mention that academically gifted men generally drift into STEM or business majors at college, whereas the academically gifted women can be found throughout.

Women, frankly, have and make choices that men are not willing or able to make. For instance, men are much less likely to be involved in a female dominated major like Primary Ed, than women are to be in a more male dominated major, like EE.

tysker said:

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ME92 said:

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tysker said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

---

I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

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They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

---

There are plenty of unqualified managers in all fields. I think there is a difference between an academically high-achieving student, and a high-quality worker, and a high-quality manager. The skills to be good in the classroom are different than those trying to manage people in a high-stress business environment. Women may produce less in the workforce and often dont obtain managerial or executive roles for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they make different choices about family and children than men do. But in school and college, from an academic standpoint, the studies suggest females perform about as well as their male classmates.

So the average female engineer isnt as high as male, but what about the variance? Are the worst female engineers on par with the worst males?

Also, why would a woman want a career as an engineer? Have you met an engineer? I guess you have, so you know how painfully boring and creepy it is for others. Well, imagine being a smart and averagely attractive woman surrounded by 20 or 30 of those people on a daily basis. Women have and make choices that men do not.

---

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the main reasons why women don't go into STEM fields as much as men. There is tremendous peer pressure coming from females against women going into STEM fields or having STEM hobbies.

You'll see teachers, parents, and peers clap their hands when a woman scores a point against the men by getting a STEM award or position. However, when it comes down to accepting a woman who likes the STEM side of things socially, the majority of women will reject her.

Women don't like other women who step too far outside their own accepted "woman mold" and will ostracize any woman who take that step. This is true both in social and work settings, including STEM work settings.

Women, as a whole, sabotage and denigrate women much more than men do.

I do love the engineers=painfully boring and creepy comment. You must be channeling Ann Landers.

---

It's been a while, so I may be misstating somewhat, but the studies I reference also mention that academically gifted men generally drift into STEM or business majors at college, whereas the academically gifted women can be found throughout.

Women, frankly, have and make choices that men are not willing or able to make. For instance, men are much less likely to be involved in a female dominated major like Primary Ed, than women are to be in a more male dominated major, like EE.

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As shown in the recent "If you were alone in the forest, would you rather run into a man or a bear" internet silliness, women tend to distrust men on the surface. A man wanting to major in primary education would have to fight against that constantly. The potential pay for an elementary school teacher is so low it would make it hard to justify that constant fight to teach kids. Especially when there are volunteer positions available for a man who wants to teach kids.

(And all of y'all with the gutter minds out there can just hush. There are far more men who just want to help kids learn something than there are perverts looking for victims.)

Stonegateag85 said:

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1-5 all male. To be fair it was an all boys private school where boys could be boys. Competition at the top was fierce. The top 5 were all bros you'd see at the weekend kegger.

1 - Harvard (Dr)
2 - Stanford (Dr)
3 - Stanford (Dr)
4 - Yale (lawyer)
5 - brown (engineer turned finance bro)

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St marks of Dallas ?

Sq 17 said:

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Stonegateag85 said:

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1-5 all male. To be fair it was an all boys private school where boys could be boys. Competition at the top was fierce. The top 5 were all bros you'd see at the weekend kegger.

1 - Harvard (Dr)
2 - Stanford (Dr)
3 - Stanford (Dr)
4 - Yale (lawyer)
5 - brown (engineer turned finance bro)

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St marks of Dallas ?

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i was thinking Middlesex School in MA

Assuming the guy went to school in Tx only a handful of schools have a top 5 that look like that and St Marks is the only all boys schools that I can think of

Fenrir said:

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A Net Full of Jello said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Now I'm trying to remember my high school class's top students:

1. Female (Vietnamese)
2. Male (Cuban)
3. Me = Male (White)
4 & 5 (don't remember which order): Female (White) & Male (Indian)

Diverse, but gender-balanced.

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We had
1. Female (Ginger)
2. Female (hispanic)
3. Male (white)
4. Female (white)


It's a bit dishonest, though. Everyone know #3 was easily the brightest in our class. He was taking senior math his freshman year and got some obscene score on his SAT (like a 1580 or something) and a perfect on his ACT. He didn't want to give a speech, though, so he calculated how he could drop to be number 3 in the class and not give a speech. He now lives is Boca Raton and makes money as a poker player. I hear he's pretty good.

The valedictorian is a former teacher/coach turned stay-at-home-mom, the salutatorian flitted about from one job to another but never really climbed the ladder or did much of anything and now works a part-time job in an office so she can be there for her kids. And the number 4 really flamed out.

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Damn, you really don't like gingers to be singling them out from whites.

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They aren't human.

Emotional Support Cobra said:

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Boys are treated like defective girls instead of like boys.

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This is a very very good point that I had not thought of earlier.

At my kids 8th grade middle school awards ceremony, every single award for "best student" or "best grades" or whatever, except of course best male athlete, all went to girls. Like 10 of the 11 awards. I was one of the few that noticed. I know in middle school Girls are more mature than boys, but still was I thought pretty one sided.

At most schools being number 1 is about being organized , turning stuff in and not being a knucklehead

Not surprising the girls are winning

DDub74 said:

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At my kids 8th grade middle school awards ceremony, every single award for "best student" or "best grades" or whatever, except of course best male athlete, all went to girls. Like 10 of the 11 awards. I was one of the few that noticed. I know in middle school Girls are more mature than boys, but still was I thought pretty one sided.

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Some girls reach a certain age and discover boys and all of a sudden grades aren't the most important thing anymore.

Sq 17 said:

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At most schools being number 1 is about being organized , turning stuff in and not being a knucklehead

Not surprising the girls are winning

---

How is being organized, turning stuff in, and not being a knucklehead a difficult thing for so many boys to do? One of those is a skill that can be learned. The other two just require discipline.

AJ02 said:

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Sq 17 said:

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At most schools being number 1 is about being organized , turning stuff in and not being a knucklehead

Not surprising the girls are winning

---

How is being organized, turning stuff in, and not being a knucklehead a difficult thing for so many boys to do? One of those is a skill that can be learned. The other two just require discipline.

---

Also, the original premise is nonsense. Being organized and turning stuff in gets you in the top 20% maybe. But the top 1 in most major high schools in Texas are very smart kids. Turning stuff in kids get into Tarleton which is great. There are a lot of good kids there. But our top 1 got some ridiculous scholarship to A&M last year. I think we sent 12 of our top 15 or something like that to Texas and Texas A&M which we all thought was pretty cool. Another went to to Air Force. Another went to Rice. We have had them go to West Point, Harvard, MIT, Vandi, Tulane, etc. in the last couple of years. Plus at least 10 D1 Sports scholarships, as many band and dance scholarships, every year. And there is nothing really unique about our school other than we are still fairly rural and ag based. Lots of schools do a lot more.

Give these kids some credit.

aggie93 said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

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I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

---

I am very, very skeptical of those studies. 30 years of experience in Technical recruiting tells me otherwise. You absolutely have women that can outperform men but on the whole that just isn't the case. The areas of STEM women excel the most are Biology. The closer it gets to hardware or embedded programming or EE/ME though the fewer women that are interested or excel in it. Always exceptions of course, the 80/20 rule definitely applies. That said it is kind of like saying you can find some men that are better as Kinder teachers.

---

I have a Masters degree in Computer Engg from A&M. In my years as a student there, I almost never saw an all-girl project group. It would always be a bunch of 2-3 girls getting together and then prowling to snag a male project mate. If the guy agreed, then you would see him in the computer lab in Zachary at 3am working on the project while the girls would be at home. This was the mid 90s so there was no connecting from home. No one had desktops at home, or even cell phones for that matter. I saw this over and over again. I have myself been asked a few times and I declined because I knew that I would have to do all the work. There would be the comical scene where 2am lab had all boys working (and looking at 90s computer pr0n) and no girls around. They all had girl project mates who were at home studying something else or sleeping. If only the boys had just teamed up....

In groups where they cannot find a boy to pile on, they end up fighting among themselves and breaking up or doing a poor job on the project. This was in at least 80% of the cases that I saw.

My assessment is 90% girls don't like the detail oriented work of STEM. Most hate programming. Some girls are intelligent and capable but still hate programming and computer science but their parents (especially if Asian) force them into it. I have seen many such cases in my own surroundings. Girls typically want to get into Bio Engineering.

Since they hate programming, they get into project management where they get to tell the programmers what to do and be a pest about timelines without knowing the work it takes. I had to suffer a few such women.

ME92 said:

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tysker said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

---

I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

---

They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

---

There are plenty of unqualified managers in all fields. I think there is a difference between an academically high-achieving student, and a high-quality worker, and a high-quality manager. The skills to be good in the classroom are different than those trying to manage people in a high-stress business environment. Women may produce less in the workforce and often dont obtain managerial or executive roles for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they make different choices about family and children than men do. But in school and college, from an academic standpoint, the studies suggest females perform about as well as their male classmates.

So the average female engineer isnt as high as male, but what about the variance? Are the worst female engineers on par with the worst males?

Also, why would a woman want a career as an engineer? Have you met an engineer? I guess you have, so you know how painfully boring and creepy it is for others. Well, imagine being a smart and averagely attractive woman surrounded by 20 or 30 of those people on a daily basis. Women have and make choices that men do not.

---

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the main reasons why women don't go into STEM fields as much as men. There is tremendous peer pressure coming from females against women going into STEM fields or having STEM hobbies.

You'll see teachers, parents, and peers clap their hands when a woman scores a point against the men by getting a STEM award or position. However, when it comes down to accepting a woman who likes the STEM side of things socially, the majority of women will reject her.

Women don't like other women who step too far outside their own accepted "woman mold" and will ostracize any woman who take that step. This is true both in social and work settings, including STEM work settings.

Women, as a whole, sabotage and denigrate women much more than men do.

I do love the engineers=painfully boring and creepy comment. You must be channeling Ann Landers.

---

This is 100% true.

My daughter is a soph in HS. She, like her older brother who is in college, loves Computer Science and programming. I instilled this love from a young age, as I love it too and did that in the initial part of my career. She was talking to a few female friends who are freshman and all of them say that computer science is "nerdy" and uncool. The girls make fun of each other if they get into computer science and anything nerdy and geeky (read intellectual). None of them want to do it or take any classes in HS. A few ventured to sign up to a class but the teachers are terrible and vindictive at my kid's HS so I had to spend a lot of time coaching and mentoring my daughter to fight through the biases the teachers showed. I had to tell her that HS is temporary and she should do what she loves and not change her track because of an a-hole teacher.

Females don't like to sit in front of a screen for hours mulling over a software bug. They just don't. As a male, I do. My son does. My daughter also has taken to it which is rare. Her freshman year had many girls in class. Now it is just 3 - my daughter and 2 others. My wife does not know how to program so she got into QA and then Project Management.

Forcing girls into STEM just is a bad idea. They are unhappy eventually even though you make it very easy for them.

The topic of girls getting a push in STEM is also true.

2 years ago, my son was applying to CS programs for his undergrad. He had stellar GPA, SAT, varsity sports, extra curriculars etc. We were hoping that he would get into any of the top CS programs (Stanford or UC Berkeley). Unfortunately he did not. Surprisingly he got some rejects from other places where I thought he could get. But then he got into a No 5 ranked school so that is where he went to. It was nerve wracking for all of us. The girls in his class with similar profiles had a much better choice to pick from. One girl got wait listed at Berkeley and Georgia Tech. Her dad is a friend of mine so whenever we met at events he would ask me how things were going for my son and compare with his daughter (they were classmates from grade school). Apples and oranges comparison. Eventually both ended up going to the same school but she had way many more options to choose from. In HS, she found an intelligent boy to be her boyfriend and also to help her do homework and so managed to do more activities than usual. He ended up going to a lower ranked school (bright kid, not sure what happened, his mom was pissed). Then she broke up with him and has caught hold of another smart boy in her own school to do homework and projects with. It's a trick that is used every generation.

Now my daughter is applying next year so we are on the other side of the fence. She will also apply to CS programs. She is not as academically bright as my son was though. She works very hard but the grades aren't there. I won't be surprised if she gets into more highly ranked schools than my son.

Girls just have it better today.

I was talking to someone my age whose daughter was in my son's batch in HS. He has 2 daughters. He has no clue how hard it is for boys. I mentioned it in passing and it got a bit offended so I switched topics.

DDub74 said:

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At my kids 8th grade middle school awards ceremony, every single award for "best student" or "best grades" or whatever, except of course best male athlete, all went to girls. Like 10 of the 11 awards. I was one of the few that noticed. I know in middle school Girls are more mature than boys, but still was I thought pretty one sided.

---

There is a huge difference between actual maturity and what education calls maturity. We need to stop using it the way education means it because that means sitting quietly, never questioning anything, and doing exactly what you are told. In reality these girls are addicted to social media, corrupted by feminism, and braindead politically.

AJ02 said:

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Sq 17 said:

---

At most schools being number 1 is about being organized , turning stuff in and not being a knucklehead

Not surprising the girls are winning

---

How is being organized, turning stuff in, and not being a knucklehead a difficult thing for so many boys to do? One of those is a skill that can be learned. The other two just require discipline.

---

School is hilariously boring and provides zero actual job training of any kind. It the antithesis of preparing a person for the real world, which is why so many women fall apart when they start working.

Nanomachines son said:

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AJ02 said:

---

Sq 17 said:

---

At most schools being number 1 is about being organized , turning stuff in and not being a knucklehead

Not surprising the girls are winning

---

How is being organized, turning stuff in, and not being a knucklehead a difficult thing for so many boys to do? One of those is a skill that can be learned. The other two just require discipline.

---

School is hilariously boring and provides zero actual job training of any kind. It the antithesis of preparing a person for the real world, which is why so many women fall apart when they start working.

---

So we're looking at K thru 12 as job training now?

And let's say it IS job training. It'd be for entry level type roles. And "organization, turning your stuff in on time, and recognizing authority" (as it was said above is what you need to do well in school - paraphrasing) seem like excellent "skills" for entry level roles.

So if K-12 is training, then sorry but...the boys need to learn those three skills poster above says they're lacking in order to be good at their entry level job. We whine and moan about how kids have no respect or drive to do a good job, yet people are trying to give boys a pass and excuse them because they're not "innately good" at those things in school. Can't have it both ways. Can't excuse boys in school because they don't have those skills, but come down on them after graduation because they didn't develop those skills.

infinity ag said:

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ME92 said:

---

tysker said:

---

Nanomachines son said:

---

tysker said:

---

Quote:

---

When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

---

I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

---

They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

---

There are plenty of unqualified managers in all fields. I think there is a difference between an academically high-achieving student, and a high-quality worker, and a high-quality manager. The skills to be good in the classroom are different than those trying to manage people in a high-stress business environment. Women may produce less in the workforce and often dont obtain managerial or executive roles for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they make different choices about family and children than men do. But in school and college, from an academic standpoint, the studies suggest females perform about as well as their male classmates.

So the average female engineer isnt as high as male, but what about the variance? Are the worst female engineers on par with the worst males?

Also, why would a woman want a career as an engineer? Have you met an engineer? I guess you have, so you know how painfully boring and creepy it is for others. Well, imagine being a smart and averagely attractive woman surrounded by 20 or 30 of those people on a daily basis. Women have and make choices that men do not.

---

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the main reasons why women don't go into STEM fields as much as men. There is tremendous peer pressure coming from females against women going into STEM fields or having STEM hobbies.

You'll see teachers, parents, and peers clap their hands when a woman scores a point against the men by getting a STEM award or position. However, when it comes down to accepting a woman who likes the STEM side of things socially, the majority of women will reject her.

Women don't like other women who step too far outside their own accepted "woman mold" and will ostracize any woman who take that step. This is true both in social and work settings, including STEM work settings.

Women, as a whole, sabotage and denigrate women much more than men do.

I do love the engineers=painfully boring and creepy comment. You must be channeling Ann Landers.

---

This is 100% true.

My daughter is a soph in HS. She, like her older brother who is in college, loves Computer Science and programming. I instilled this love from a young age, as I love it too and did that in the initial part of my career. She was talking to a few female friends who are freshman and all of them say that computer science is "nerdy" and uncool. The girls make fun of each other if they get into computer science and anything nerdy and geeky (read intellectual). None of them want to do it or take any classes in HS. A few ventured to sign up to a class but the teachers are terrible and vindictive at my kid's HS so I had to spend a lot of time coaching and mentoring my daughter to fight through the biases the teachers showed. I had to tell her that HS is temporary and she should do what she loves and not change her track because of an a-hole teacher.

Females don't like to sit in front of a screen for hours mulling over a software bug. They just don't. As a male, I do. My son does. My daughter also has taken to it which is rare. Her freshman year had many girls in class. Now it is just 3 - my daughter and 2 others. My wife does not know how to program so she got into QA and then Project Management.

Forcing girls into STEM just is a bad idea. They are unhappy eventually even though you make it very easy for them.

---

This applies for all engineering. I had the same experience in grad school in another field of engineering. I did all of the work on a group project and the woman in the group did nothing.

Women generally don't like engineering because it can be tedious and mind-numbing detail oriented work of looking through thousands of lines of data and finding errors. They are generally not well suited to do that, which is why many leave from burnout after a number of years.

We need to stop trying to raise girls as boys in regards to STEM. Even the ones who claim to like it, rarely remain on the technical side for long.

AJ02 said:

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And let's say it IS job training. It'd be for entry level type roles. And "organization, turning your stuff in on time, and recognizing authority" (as it was said above is what you need to do well in school - paraphrasing) seem like excellent "skills" for entry level roles.

So if K-12 is training, then sorry but...the boys need to learn those three skills poster above says they're lacking in order to be good at their entry level job. We whine and moan about how kids have no respect or drive to do a good job, yet people are trying to give boys a pass and excuse them because they're not "innately good" at those things in school. Can't have it both ways. Can't excuse boys in school because they don't have those skills, but come down on them after graduation because they didn't develop those skills.

---

No problem at all for letting the work be the work and let it sort itself out. I'm all for an equal playing field without bias for sex. No doubt there are lazy boys out there and even moreso boys who rebel when they lose interest. For boys it is all about finding something they are interested in and if you do they will usually work any woman into the ground. That's why you have so many folks that were C students that end up millionaires. Same with sports. Boys are much more likely not to GAF about what other people think about them as well.

I have seen it in mountain biking. For the boys they just like to mountain bike. For the girls they need to have other girls and a social component. Just a very different dynamic.

I also think the point made earlier about why women don't go into many areas of STEM has more to do with treatment from other girls than it does treatment by men rings true. Women care about the approval of other women. They want to feel liked and popular and affirmed. It's how most are hardwired. Some aren't but very few. Men are more than ok with treating women equally most of the time. It's just a lot of times women think that means they are being treated unfairly because they don't realize how unsympathetic men are towards each other. Men like to be rough and mean to each other. They don't like to be overly complementary because it shows weakness to men. If women aren't complemented they get offended, men just move on.

Women don't understand that most men are raised as disposable. It's a hierarchy and constant competition. For everything. No one feels sorry for you and you don't want them to. If you do then men don't respect you. It's a level of emotional pressure and loneliness that most women simply can't handle but it's just the norm for men. Oh, and there are plenty of norms for women that men can't handle as well.

infinity ag said:

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ME92 said:

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tysker said:

---

Nanomachines son said:

---

tysker said:

---

Quote:

---

When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

---

I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

---

They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

---

There are plenty of unqualified managers in all fields. I think there is a difference between an academically high-achieving student, and a high-quality worker, and a high-quality manager. The skills to be good in the classroom are different than those trying to manage people in a high-stress business environment. Women may produce less in the workforce and often dont obtain managerial or executive roles for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they make different choices about family and children than men do. But in school and college, from an academic standpoint, the studies suggest females perform about as well as their male classmates.

So the average female engineer isnt as high as male, but what about the variance? Are the worst female engineers on par with the worst males?

Also, why would a woman want a career as an engineer? Have you met an engineer? I guess you have, so you know how painfully boring and creepy it is for others. Well, imagine being a smart and averagely attractive woman surrounded by 20 or 30 of those people on a daily basis. Women have and make choices that men do not.

---

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the main reasons why women don't go into STEM fields as much as men. There is tremendous peer pressure coming from females against women going into STEM fields or having STEM hobbies.

You'll see teachers, parents, and peers clap their hands when a woman scores a point against the men by getting a STEM award or position. However, when it comes down to accepting a woman who likes the STEM side of things socially, the majority of women will reject her.

Women don't like other women who step too far outside their own accepted "woman mold" and will ostracize any woman who take that step. This is true both in social and work settings, including STEM work settings.

Women, as a whole, sabotage and denigrate women much more than men do.

I do love the engineers=painfully boring and creepy comment. You must be channeling Ann Landers.

---

This is 100% true.

My daughter is a soph in HS. She, like her older brother who is in college, loves Computer Science and programming. I instilled this love from a young age, as I love it too and did that in the initial part of my career. She was talking to a few female friends who are freshman and all of them say that computer science is "nerdy" and uncool. The girls make fun of each other if they get into computer science and anything nerdy and geeky (read intellectual). None of them want to do it or take any classes in HS. A few ventured to sign up to a class but the teachers are terrible and vindictive at my kid's HS so I had to spend a lot of time coaching and mentoring my daughter to fight through the biases the teachers showed. I had to tell her that HS is temporary and she should do what she loves and not change her track because of an a-hole teacher.

Females don't like to sit in front of a screen for hours mulling over a software bug. They just don't. As a male, I do. My son does. My daughter also has taken to it which is rare. Her freshman year had many girls in class. Now it is just 3 - my daughter and 2 others. My wife does not know how to program so she got into QA and then Project Management.

Forcing girls into STEM just is a bad idea. They are unhappy eventually even though you make it very easy for them.

---

PM's are the cheat code for hitting your diversity numbers with hiring women in Engineering departments.

I get that some of you are saying "there are exceptions and not every girl is like this", but damn....a lot of y'all are painting with a broad brush. It kinda stings the opinion so many of you apparently have of me, just because I don't have a *****.

Girls have never really been encouraged to go into STEM fields, just like boys were never really encouraged to go in to nursing or education. So does the anecdotal evidence you all are espousing change if girls are encouraged to go into STEM at a young age and we give it time to change the perception of STEM?

I know for me, I've always been "left brained". Loved and excelled at math and science. But not a single teacher or counselor from K through 11 ever encouraged me to think of anything STEM related. It wasn't until my senior year of highschool when I was picking my major at A&M when my counselor actually stopped me and said "you know, you're really really good at math & science. Why don't you take this Aggie Bible and look through it and see if any majors in the college of engineering sound interesting to you." Up until then I was 100% sure I was going into business administration.

How would things have turned out differently for me if earlier in my childhood I'd actually had someone nurture the analytical side of me? Instead of just ASSUMING I wouldn't be interested because I was a girl. If there was a concerted effort for a sustained period of time to open that world up to girls at a young age, how different would they perceive STEM? Perhaps it would no longer be "nerdy" and "uncool" and we'd find out if given the encouragement at a young age, a lot of girls can actually thrive in it?

infinity ag said:

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aggie93 said:

---

tysker said:

---

Quote:

---

When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

---

I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

---

I am very, very skeptical of those studies. 30 years of experience in Technical recruiting tells me otherwise. You absolutely have women that can outperform men but on the whole that just isn't the case. The areas of STEM women excel the most are Biology. The closer it gets to hardware or embedded programming or EE/ME though the fewer women that are interested or excel in it. Always exceptions of course, the 80/20 rule definitely applies. That said it is kind of like saying you can find some men that are better as Kinder teachers.

---

I have a Masters degree in Computer Engg from A&M. In my years as a student there, I almost never saw an all-girl project group. It would always be a bunch of 2-3 girls getting together and then prowling to snag a male project mate. If the guy agreed, then you would see him in the computer lab in Zachary at 3am working on the project while the girls would be at home. This was the mid 90s so there was no connecting from home. No one had desktops at home, or even cell phones for that matter. I saw this over and over again. I have myself been asked a few times and I declined because I knew that I would have to do all the work. There would be the comical scene where 2am lab had all boys working (and looking at 90s computer pr0n) and no girls around. They all had girl project mates who were at home studying something else or sleeping. If only the boys had just teamed up....

In groups where they cannot find a boy to pile on, they end up fighting among themselves and breaking up or doing a poor job on the project. This was in at least 80% of the cases that I saw.

My assessment is 90% girls don't like the detail oriented work of STEM. Most hate programming. Some girls are intelligent and capable but still hate programming and computer science but their parents (especially if Asian) force them into it. I have seen many such cases in my own surroundings. Girls typically want to get into Bio Engineering.

Since they hate programming, they get into project management where they get to tell the programmers what to do and be a pest about timelines without knowing the work it takes. I had to suffer a few such women.

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Or....could it be the arrogance of a lot of the males who are SO SURE their way is the right way and the only way, and constantly steamroll the females and disregard their input, to the point the females basically say "f it. Let them do it then."