AJ02 said:

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I get that some of you are saying "there are exceptions and not every girl is like this", but damn....a lot of y'all are painting with a broad brush. It kinda stings the opinion so many of you apparently have of me, just because I don't have a *****.

Girls have never really been encouraged to go into STEM fields, just like boys were never really encouraged to go in to nursing or education. So does the anecdotal evidence you all are espousing change if girls are encouraged to go into STEM at a young age and we give it time to change the perception of STEM?

I know for me, I've always been "left brained". Loved and excelled at math and science. But not a single teacher or counselor from K through 11 ever encouraged me to think of anything STEM related. It wasn't until my senior year of highschool when I was picking my major at A&M when my counselor actually stopped me and said "you know, you're really really good at math & science. Why don't you take this Aggie Bible and look through it and see if any majors in the college of engineering sound interesting to you." Up until then I was 100% sure I was going into business administration.

How would things have turned out differently for me if earlier in my childhood I'd actually had someone nurture the analytical side of me? Instead of just ASSUMING I wouldn't be interested because I was a girl. If there was a concerted effort for a sustained period of time to open that world up to girls at a young age, how different would they perceive STEM? Perhaps it would no longer be "nerdy" and "uncool" and we'd find out if given the encouragement at a young age, a lot of girls can actually thrive in it?

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Robotics Engineer Barbie:


Computer Engineer Barbie:


Civil Engineering Barbie:

AgBQ-00 said:

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The entirety of the education system is designed around feminine behavior and is heavily skewed to hamstringing males. As you have noticed boys have been villainized to the point that many are withdrawing and refusing to participate.

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It's interesting. I spent 36 years in a police career that was a very male dominated (less so than previously but still male dominated). I now work in public education and it is overwhelmingly a female dominated area. The whole vibe of how students are disciplined and treated is right out of the female playbook. Get down on their level, look them in the eye, offer constant praise, no strict discipline. It's really a striking difference.
The building I'm in has just short of 50 employees. 5 are men and I think we're on the high end of that in the district.

bayareaag17 said:

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Muy said:

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When will we learn that just because someone got average grades in high school they can still be incredibly successful.

Those top female students will want to have kids and raise families, while the men will grind to reach the top.

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I had a 3.1 GPA in high school, went to Arizona State and graduated college with a sterling 2.2 GPA and now I make 6 figures at 28 years old in a sales job and own a house. School doesn't teach you anything useful unless it's STEM. I say this as a political science major. I actually look back and realize 90% of my teachers were morons who wouldn't last 5 minutes in the private sector.

My girlfriend gets irritated because she knows how lazy I was with school and she makes about $95k (which is awesome and she's very smart) but she busted her tail and was a straight A student and we ended up in roughly the same position. I always laugh and say "school doesn't teach you everything!"

I think there's a ton of guys like me who were just bored in class and didn't really try very hard. My biggest problems were studying, organization, lack of interest in most topics and turning in assignments. I always liked to read stuff about history, economics, and investing. Reading "The Great Gatsby" wouldn't have taught me anything. I guess I also prioritized sports and socializing which probably helps me in my job. It's fun talking to people, learning about their businesses and trying to figure out how to help them out.

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bayarea, you sound exactly like my oldest son currently in college. Do you mind me asking what industry you are in? Feel free to PM me.... TIA!

All you freaking dorks and your Engineering degrees. As a trailblazer I got a Health degree. I was one of 2-3 males in a class of about 100 females.

And then I jumped industries very early in my career.

This is the way.

AJ02 said:

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Sq 17 said:

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At most schools being number 1 is about being organized , turning stuff in and not being a knucklehead

Not surprising the girls are winning

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How is being organized, turning stuff in, and not being a knucklehead a difficult thing for so many boys to do? One of those is a skill that can be learned. The other two just require discipline.

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Has a point. This is like the argument I hear that having a strict zero tolerance behavior policy marginalizes black males?

WTF?!?!? Are black males as a group incapable of civilized behavior???

Goes back to parenting.

AJ02 said:

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Or....could it be the arrogance of a lot of the males who are SO SURE their way is the right way and the only way, and constantly steamroll the females and disregard their input, to the point the females basically say "f it. Let them do it then."

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You know, I've seen this in my own extended family, with someone married to an engineer.

The wife has learned to just to let him do EVERYTHING, because she knows he won't be happy with the way she does it and he'll redo it.

She calls it "cutting out the middleman."

Nanomachines son said:

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AJ02 said:

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Sq 17 said:

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At most schools being number 1 is about being organized , turning stuff in and not being a knucklehead

Not surprising the girls are winning

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How is being organized, turning stuff in, and not being a knucklehead a difficult thing for so many boys to do? One of those is a skill that can be learned. The other two just require discipline.

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School is hilariously boring and provides zero actual job training of any kind. It the antithesis of preparing a person for the real world, which is why so many women fall apart when they start working.

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School or even college aren't meant to be job training places. They are meant to teach a person how to think through problems. If you want to do job training, you have to join a vocational school. College is supposed to teach you critical thinking so that you can apply those skills to any kind of problem in the future.

Women fall apart because they cannot deal with stress and criticism. They get all emotional about it rather than taking feedback, thinking and accepting/rejecting. Women generally think that someone criticizing them hates them.

What the hell kind of women do y'all hang out with that you think we're all gossipy, overly-emotional, weepy, catty, backstabbing, insecure, superficial idiots? Sheesh. Y'all really need to get a better class of friends or stop marrying and procreating with women who have those traits.

AJ02 said:

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What the hell kind of women do y'all hang out with that you think we're all gossipy, overly-emotional, weepy, catty, backstabbing, insecure, superficial idiots? Sheesh. Y'all really need to get a better class of friends or stop marrying and procreating with women who have those traits.

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All women are like this, including every female engineer I have ever worked with. It's the norm and every single woman always thinks they aren't like this but they always are in comparison to men.

I don't have female friends and never will.

AJ02 said:

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What the hell kind of women do y'all hang out with that you think we're all gossipy, overly-emotional, weepy, catty, backstabbing, insecure, superficial idiots? Sheesh. Y'all really need to get a better class of friends or stop marrying and procreating with women who have those traits.

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Wise men learn to accept women as they are for good and bad and the same for wise women. Women don't see themselves as having the traits you listed because they view the world through a female lens but the reality is almost all women have those traits, just at different extremes. I've been married for 28 years to a wonderful woman who has exhibited all of those traits at times and she is very low drama compared to most. She is also self aware and appreciates the things I can do for her as I do the things she does for me. It's all about finding balance.

Occassionally I let me wife take a glance at one of my smack talk sports text threads with my buddies, all of which are very successful and in happy marriages, and it just doesn't process for her. I also can't grasp how she can spend days worrying about whether or not the color of red for my son's tie will properly match his date's dress. We are just different.

Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

Proverbs 31:30 (NIV)

AJ02 said:

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What the hell kind of women do y'all hang out with that you think we're all gossipy, overly-emotional, weepy, catty, backstabbing, insecure, superficial idiots? Sheesh. Y'all really need to get a better class of friends or stop marrying and procreating with women who have those traits.

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Every female I know is like that to some degree. It is really bad in the office environment. Most of them are easily offended, almost like they are looking to be offended.

My ex wife used to run me crazy complaining about all the females she used to work with and for. My girlfriend does the same darn thing.

Yes, men and women are very different. It's crazy it has to be pointed out.

I took a couples counseling class with a female counselor one time. She gave us a book to read. She talked about some things in the book during the session where she introduced it. One of those things was the fact that most men, like almost 100%, said they would rather be respected than loved. I remember her saying that when she read it she was like no way this can be true. She could not believe it because females are not that way at all. But it is true.

That's a huge difference, one of many.

AJ02 said:

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What the hell kind of women do y'all hang out with that you think we're all gossipy, overly-emotional, weepy, catty, backstabbing, insecure, superficial idiots? Sheesh. Y'all really need to get a better class of friends or stop marrying and procreating with women who have those traits.

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It's many decades of working with women, my dear. And being married to one for more than 2 decades. Just because you are not that way, it does not invalidate what I am saying. You may be one of those "manly" females. And I am not dissing you at all, it is great if you are not the emotional drama queen type, but I am skeptical about it. Women love drama. Which is why they don't try to solve problems.

Most women, even those who have climbed up the corp ladder are "boss girls" when the going is good. When sheet hits the ceiling, they tend to freak out rather than calm down and think of a solution and reflexively go into the "damsel in distress" mode. I used to wonder why, but I think it is because women want to be liked (men don't care if you like them or not, we are used to no one caring about us) and if they fail at some project at work, they will look bad. Women don't like to look bad or incompetent so the freaking out is a way to say "help me help me" or to foist the blame on someone else.

Logos Stick said:

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AJ02 said:

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What the hell kind of women do y'all hang out with that you think we're all gossipy, overly-emotional, weepy, catty, backstabbing, insecure, superficial idiots? Sheesh. Y'all really need to get a better class of friends or stop marrying and procreating with women who have those traits.

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Every female I know is like that to some degree. It is really bad in the office environment. Most of them are easily offended, almost like they are looking to be offended.

My ex wife used to run me crazy complaining about all the females she used to work with and for. My girlfriend does the same darn thing.

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My wife works in education and she has more drama in one single day than I do in years in the male dominated oil and gas profession. It's legitimately incredible how much drama women can make on a single given day. People are crying, melting down, screaming, and so much more.

My day is very boring 99% of the time. I go in, do my work, talk with a few people, and then leave. That's it, absolutely nothing else happens.

There is a reason most men prefer to work with only men.

Logos Stick said:

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Yes, men and women are very different. It's crazy it has to be pointed out.

I took a couples counseling class with a female counselor one time. She gave us a book to read. She talked about some things in the book during the session where she introduced it. One of those things was the fact that most men, like almost 100%, said they would rather be respected than loved. I remember her saying that when she read it she was like no way this can be true. She could not believe it because females are not that way at all. But it is true.

That's a huge difference, one of many.

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A woman needs to be told you love her. A man needs to be told you are proud of him.

aggie93 said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Yes, men and women are very different. It's crazy it has to be pointed out.

I took a couples counseling class with a female counselor one time. She gave us a book to read. She talked about some things in the book during the session where she introduced it. One of those things was the fact that most men, like almost 100%, said they would rather be respected than loved. I remember her saying that when she read it she was like no way this can be true. She could not believe it because females are not that way at all. But it is true.

That's a huge difference, one of many.

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A woman needs to be told you love her. A man needs to be told you are proud of him.

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Very perfectly put! 100% correct.

ts5641 said:

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AgBQ-00 said:

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The entirety of the education system is designed around feminine behavior and is heavily skewed to hamstringing males. As you have noticed boys have been villainized to the point that many are withdrawing and refusing to participate.

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It's interesting. I spent 36 years in a police career that was a very male dominated (less so than previously but still male dominated). I now work in public education and it is overwhelmingly a female dominated area. The whole vibe of how students are disciplined and treated is right out of the female playbook. Get down on their level, look them in the eye, offer constant praise, no strict discipline. It's really a striking difference.
The building I'm in has just short of 50 employees. 5 are men and I think we're on the high end of that in the district.

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Lack of strong masculine influence in education and discipline is certainly a contributing factor. Men need some strong leadership and coaching to push them and challenge them. They also do better with some sort of competition in the mix, which has been removed from education.

bmks270 said:

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ts5641 said:

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AgBQ-00 said:

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The entirety of the education system is designed around feminine behavior and is heavily skewed to hamstringing males. As you have noticed boys have been villainized to the point that many are withdrawing and refusing to participate.

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It's interesting. I spent 36 years in a police career that was a very male dominated (less so than previously but still male dominated). I now work in public education and it is overwhelmingly a female dominated area. The whole vibe of how students are disciplined and treated is right out of the female playbook. Get down on their level, look them in the eye, offer constant praise, no strict discipline. It's really a striking difference.
The building I'm in has just short of 50 employees. 5 are men and I think we're on the high end of that in the district.

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Lack of strong masculine influence in education and discipline is certainly a contributing factor. Men need some strong leadership and coaching to push them and challenge them. They also do better with some sort of competition in the mix, which has been removed from education.

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I do think some in this thread are missing the point of my question. This question isn't what roles men and women should have or really about women at all, but more about men statistically declining in areas we traditionally designated as successful. Is this problem environmental, so to speak, and if so, how do we fix it?

Nonregdrummer09 said:

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bmks270 said:

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ts5641 said:

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AgBQ-00 said:

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The entirety of the education system is designed around feminine behavior and is heavily skewed to hamstringing males. As you have noticed boys have been villainized to the point that many are withdrawing and refusing to participate.

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It's interesting. I spent 36 years in a police career that was a very male dominated (less so than previously but still male dominated). I now work in public education and it is overwhelmingly a female dominated area. The whole vibe of how students are disciplined and treated is right out of the female playbook. Get down on their level, look them in the eye, offer constant praise, no strict discipline. It's really a striking difference.
The building I'm in has just short of 50 employees. 5 are men and I think we're on the high end of that in the district.

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Lack of strong masculine influence in education and discipline is certainly a contributing factor. Men need some strong leadership and coaching to push them and challenge them. They also do better with some sort of competition in the mix, which has been removed from education.

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I do think some in this thread are missing the point of my question. This question isn't what roles men and women should have or really about women at all, but more about men statistically declining in areas we traditionally designated as successful. Is this problem environmental, so to speak, and if so, how do we fix it?

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Get the governments thumb off the scale which will never happen. Policy, incentivizing one group over another, and false glorification is causing this imbalance.

It will happen only when men stand up for themselves and stop putting women on a pedestal. Women need to be given equal opportunities in all avenues, but not be guaranteed equal outcome. Women today as a group don't like open and free competition. They play the victim card and try to get more than what they deserve, which is injustice to other groups of people who actually work for it. Women want reparations, just like African Americans claiming that historical injustice happened. But they think only they have suffered, it is wrong. Many other groups have suffered too, what about them? No one cares.

This nonsense will stop only when men stop caring what women women think, and have the balls to do what is right in the face of shaming and criticism.

I really think a lot of you need to step away from social media and experience things in the real world.

I myself took my own advice recently. Disheartened by worsening race relations you see all over the news and social media. But when you stop paying attention to what you see online, and actually go out an experience the world....it's not as bad as the media would have you believe.

Same with "all women" playing the victim, wanting equal outcome for less work, etc. You're basing a lot of that on the vocal minority that you see online, but that's really not the truth as a whole out in the real world. I promise you it's not. Are there exceptions? Yes. But like was stated above "men want respect, they don't care if they're liked", the same is true for a good portion of women out in the professional world. I'm not talking inherently female roles (which are also the ones that get the most coverage on social media, like nursing, teaching, stay at home mom, etc), most of us who have professional, six figure careers just want respect same as the men.

AJ02 said:

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I really think a lot of you need to step away from social media and experience things in the real world.

I myself took my own advice recently. Disheartened by worsening race relations you see all over the news and social media. But when you stop paying attention to what you see online, and actually go out an experience the world....it's not as bad as the media would have you believe.

Same with "all women" playing the victim, wanting equal outcome for less work, etc. You're basing a lot of that on the vocal minority that you see online, but that's really not the truth as a whole out in the real world. I promise you it's not. Are there exceptions? Yes. But like was stated above "men want respect, they don't care if they're liked", the same is true for a good portion of women out in the professional world. I'm not talking inherently female roles (which are also the ones that get the most coverage on social media, like nursing, teaching, stay at home mom, etc), most of us who have professional, six figure careers just want respect same as the men.

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I'm going off 30 years of experience in the working world employing engineers. I agree using terms like "all" is a bad idea, that's why I am a fan of the 80/20 rule. There are some great female engineers in my experience, they are just the exception. If anything social media and everything else tries to tell you otherwise. Can't even count how many times I didn't want it to be true. How I rooted for women who I hired or worked with to be strong and effective. It's just really rare. I also feel confident that of those exceptions those are women who could have likely been successful at anything, probably even moreso.

Also the point isn't that women want respect. The point is they don't want to play by the same rules to get that respect. That's because men and women are different. They see the world differently. They react to the world differently.

AJ02 said:

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I really think a lot of you need to step away from social media and experience things in the real world.

I myself took my own advice recently. Disheartened by worsening race relations you see all over the news and social media. But when you stop paying attention to what you see online, and actually go out an experience the world....it's not as bad as the media would have you believe.

Same with "all women" playing the victim, wanting equal outcome for less work, etc. You're basing a lot of that on the vocal minority that you see online, but that's really not the truth as a whole out in the real world. I promise you it's not. Are there exceptions? Yes. But like was stated above "men want respect, they don't care if they're liked", the same is true for a good portion of women out in the professional world. I'm not talking inherently female roles (which are also the ones that get the most coverage on social media, like nursing, teaching, stay at home mom, etc), most of us who have professional, six figure careers just want respect same as the men.

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A lot of assumptions here about specific people you don't know.

infinity ag said:

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AJ02 said:

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I really think a lot of you need to step away from social media and experience things in the real world.

I myself took my own advice recently. Disheartened by worsening race relations you see all over the news and social media. But when you stop paying attention to what you see online, and actually go out an experience the world....it's not as bad as the media would have you believe.

Same with "all women" playing the victim, wanting equal outcome for less work, etc. You're basing a lot of that on the vocal minority that you see online, but that's really not the truth as a whole out in the real world. I promise you it's not. Are there exceptions? Yes. But like was stated above "men want respect, they don't care if they're liked", the same is true for a good portion of women out in the professional world. I'm not talking inherently female roles (which are also the ones that get the most coverage on social media, like nursing, teaching, stay at home mom, etc), most of us who have professional, six figure careers just want respect same as the men.

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A lot of assumptions here about specific people you don't know.

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Perhaps... but is he wrong? I think it is pretty spot on!

BoDog said:

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infinity ag said:

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AJ02 said:

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I really think a lot of you need to step away from social media and experience things in the real world.

I myself took my own advice recently. Disheartened by worsening race relations you see all over the news and social media. But when you stop paying attention to what you see online, and actually go out an experience the world....it's not as bad as the media would have you believe.

Same with "all women" playing the victim, wanting equal outcome for less work, etc. You're basing a lot of that on the vocal minority that you see online, but that's really not the truth as a whole out in the real world. I promise you it's not. Are there exceptions? Yes. But like was stated above "men want respect, they don't care if they're liked", the same is true for a good portion of women out in the professional world. I'm not talking inherently female roles (which are also the ones that get the most coverage on social media, like nursing, teaching, stay at home mom, etc), most of us who have professional, six figure careers just want respect same as the men.

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A lot of assumptions here about specific people you don't know.

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Perhaps... but is he wrong? I think it is pretty spot on!

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aggie93 is spot on (I think). AJ02 is female from what I can tell, so won't be a "he".
So I am not sure what you are referring to and what exactly is spot on.

I agree with this.

Personally I think peoples success is about how they view the world and how they CREATE it for themselves. If you need someone else to tell you how the economy is going to affect you, how successful you are going to be, etc, your life is going to be hard. Life turns out how you expect it. People tend to use Biden, democrats, failing economy doom and gloom, decline in boys success, etc as crutches for why they can't be successful. It's self fulfilling. If you aren't better off now than you were four years ago, then that's on you.

Turn off the Internet. Surround yourself with true experts and figure out how to navigate your ship to be successful.

AJ02 said:

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I really think a lot of you need to step away from social media and experience things in the real world.

I myself took my own advice recently. Disheartened by worsening race relations you see all over the news and social media. But when you stop paying attention to what you see online, and actually go out an experience the world....it's not as bad as the media would have you believe.

Same with "all women" playing the victim, wanting equal outcome for less work, etc. You're basing a lot of that on the vocal minority that you see online, but that's really not the truth as a whole out in the real world. I promise you it's not. Are there exceptions? Yes. But like was stated above "men want respect, they don't care if they're liked", the same is true for a good portion of women out in the professional world. I'm not talking inherently female roles (which are also the ones that get the most coverage on social media, like nursing, teaching, stay at home mom, etc), most of us who have professional, six figure careers just want respect same as the men.

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The best concrete example to me of this being wrong is if you look at how in many top tech companies you have 2 tracks in Engineering. One for IC and one for Management. The IC track leads to being an Architect and eventually a Principal or Fellow as an Engineer. This is someone with incredibly deep technical knowledge that isn't really interested in leading a group outside of doing so from a technical perspective. They want to stay in the tech. The management track is for folks who understand the tech but really like leading people and making strategic decisions more. I'm not talking about the first few years of their career, this is 10 years plus and at senior levels.

Very, very few women go down the first track. If you take away foreign born women it's really hard to find them (not just Asian). High potential women gravitate heavily towards the management track. I'm honestly trying to think of any women I know who have taken the first track that aren't foreign born. Maybe one or two. It's just not a path they want but for a lot of men they love it. The opportunity to just dive endlessly into the details on tech and not have to deal with people all the time to become a true subject matter expert is very appealing to many men. Not so much for women. The few who are willing to make those levels of sacrifice in terms of working that intently in a field like engineering virtually all go into management and some have excelled. It's just a very small group. As a side note it's a similar story with

I also keep thinking about this group that seems to have impacted you so much in high school you didn't get invited to be in. Did you ask to be? I mean it seems pretty normal if you hear about a club or an organization as you described going on and the teachers didn't pick you to advocate for yourself. It's one thing if they just didn't think to pick you for whatever reason and it is quite another if you expressed your interest and were passed over. It sounds like the former. I know I've taught my boys to scratch and claw and get out of their comfort zone, Life isn't fair and you have to overcome. Not sure why you think boys get mentoring and help more than women, they don't. I can think of countless concrete examples of women's organizations and special support they get in STEM, can't think of a single one for men.

As I stated multiple times, it was invite only. They didn't send out a survey of who would be interested or even send out a notice of "we have a science and engineering team! Come learn more!"

It was being in class one day and suddenly seeing my classmates get pulled out by another teacher. Asking around later and finding out they were selected by a group of teachers. No knowledge that the group even existed until then. And at 14 years old, what do we really know about "advocating" for ourselves? If at 14 you ask about it, and you get told "sorry, it's invite only" you tend to trust the teachers and take that at face value. Like "okay, they must not think I'm good enough for it."

And I never said not being in it impacted me greatly. I've gone on to do very well for myself. I just wondered what would have been different for me had that side been nurtured at an early age like it was for my classmates. Had I even known there was this whole world of "engineering" at that age, instead of first really learning much about it when I was a senior trying to pick my major at A&M. I was a first generation college student. My parents pretty much told me "if you want to go to college, you're going to have to pay for it yourself. Because we're not helping." So I had no guidance from my parents and little guidance from my teachers. Kind of hard to even know what to advocate for in that instance.

aggie93 said:

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Not sure why you think boys get mentoring and help more than women, they don't. I can think of countless concrete examples of women's organizations and special support they get in STEM, can't think of a single one for men.

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My wife joined the workforce about 10 years after her Masters degree with practically no relevant work experience. She joined as a QA person at a low salary. She would tell me about the number of people who would help her out. I was amazed. In all my years, I got zero help, zero mentoring, and I was expected to show results even in seemingly impossible situations.

And we have no groups like "Women who code" or "Women in Tech" etc etc which are blatantly and openly sexist and discriminatory.

Women have no idea what men go through. On top of all of that, they complain about how easy men have it because a few, men have risen to the top and have a lot of power. They also tend to group men as one homogeneous group with all the advantages. Different sub-groups within men have wide disparities of advantages.

AJ02 said:

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As I stated multiple times, it was invite only. They didn't send out a survey of who would be interested or even send out a notice of "we have a science and engineering team! Come learn more!"

It was being in class one day and suddenly seeing my classmates get pulled out by another teacher. Asking around later and finding out they were selected by a group of teachers. No knowledge that the group even existed until then. And at 14 years old, what do we really know about "advocating" for ourselves? If at 14 you ask about it, and you get told "sorry, it's invite only" you tend to trust the teachers and take that at face value. Like "okay, they must not think I'm good enough for it."

And I never said not being in it impacted me greatly. I've gone on to do very well for myself. I just wondered what would have been different for me had that side been nurtured at an early age like it was for my classmates. Had I even known there was this whole world of "engineering" at that age, instead of first really learning much about it when I was a senior trying to pick my major at A&M. I was a first generation college student. My parents pretty much told me "if you want to go to college, you're going to have to pay for it yourself. Because we're not helping." So I had no guidance from my parents and little guidance from my teachers. Kind of hard to even know what to advocate for in that instance.

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This could very well have happened as you say. But it is fairly common for men also. I have been not included in several other situations purely non other factors even though we were all men. Sheet like this happens a lot to everybody. It is not exclusive to men keeping women out situations. Men keep men out too. And women do that to other women.

You seem to have done well for yourself in spite of these situations, so kudos to you.

AJ02 said:

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As I stated multiple times, it was invite only. They didn't send out a survey of who would be interested or even send out a notice of "we have a science and engineering team! Come learn more!"

It was being in class one day and suddenly seeing my classmates get pulled out by another teacher. Asking around later and finding out they were selected by a group of teachers. No knowledge that the group even existed until then. And at 14 years old, what do we really know about "advocating" for ourselves? If at 14 you ask about it, and you get told "sorry, it's invite only" you tend to trust the teachers and take that at face value. Like "okay, they must not think I'm good enough for it."

And I never said not being in it impacted me greatly. I've gone on to do very well for myself. I just wondered what would have been different for me had that side been nurtured at an early age like it was for my classmates. Had I even known there was this whole world of "engineering" at that age, instead of first really learning much about it when I was a senior trying to pick my major at A&M. I was a first generation college student. My parents pretty much told me "if you want to go to college, you're going to have to pay for it yourself. Because we're not helping." So I had no guidance from my parents and little guidance from my teachers. Kind of hard to even know what to advocate for in that instance.

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So you did ask a teacher and were told "invite only"? If that's the case that sucks and my guess is those teachers sucked. Glad for you that you moved past it and fought on. Happens to both sexes of course but crappy teachers are what they are. I certainly could make a long list of teachers that were crappy to me or my boys, you just have to fight through the losers.

As for the advocating though I think you miss the point. You have to advocate for yourself and it's often hard. It's unfortunate no one told you that and you had to figure it out on your own but that's how it is for most of us.

BTW, my wife is a 1st Gen who came from nothing. Dad told her she was wasting her time and money going to college and certainly didn't help even though she was 2nd in her HS Class. She has gone on to be very successful and had to overcome far more than I did. She does Marketing though. She also struggles with all of the issues I mentioned before even though she is far stronger than just about any woman I know.

I'm all for programs that expose kids to new things and possibilities. So how do you feel about female centered STEM programs that exclude males?

I don't agree with gender specific (or gender excluding) clubs. I'm not a member of any even though there are plenty of STEM ones geared towards women.

I feel like this all got pushed way further than I intended. The original OP was making a point that boys aren't doing as well and I don't recall if it was OP or someone else who mentioned something to the effect of "it's harder for boys now because they aren't included in xyz". And I laughed because when I was going through it (and I even admitted that I was in highschool in the 90s) women were regularly excluded and no one noticed or thought twice. I gave my anecdotal experience. We may not have been excluded by rule, but excluded because the assumption was "only boys care about this". So I found it somewhat ironic and slightly hypocritical that now boys are being given a pass on their struggles because "they're being excluded and school is geared to be easier for girls, so it's not fair".

That was pretty much the extent of my initial comment and it just snowballed from there as people claimed that ALL (yes, multiple people used absolute terms like "all") women are clingy, whiny, weepy, overly-emotional, backstabbing, shallow, not as smart, etc. How it went from my anecdotal example to now me somehow being an ultra-feminist who thinks all women are just the same as men, and all women in STEM are just as smart as men, and women should get a leg up over men, and I'm complaining that I'm not further in life because I didn't stand up for myself as a 14 year old...I have no idea how that happened.

My first job out of college was as a Trainmaster. Literally working in the train yards. In hindsight, did they give me the job for some DEI metric 20 years ago? Probably. But I was going to do my best to EARN respect and not DEMAND it. Even if it meant taking my share of abuse from my union direct reports over the radio for all to hear who called me a *****, told me to come over and suck their d****s, etc. Did i report them to HR or complain to my supervisors about it? No. Because I wanted to prove to them that I wasn't going to cry in my office. It wasn't going to break me.

Are there women who give others a bad name? Who are ****ty drivers, who cry in their office when faced with difficult criticism, who don't want to mess up their hair to put on a hard hat, who complain about being paid less (which statistics show isn't true).....absolutely. I've seen it firsthand. But the mentality that a lot seem to have that ALL women are like that and it's just inherent and there's nothing anyone can do about it is BS.

AJ02 said:

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I don't agree with gender specific (or gender excluding) clubs. I'm not a member of any even though there are plenty of STEM ones geared towards women.

I feel like this all got pushed way further than I intended. The original OP was making a point that boys aren't doing as well and I don't recall if it was OP or someone else who mentioned something to the effect of "it's harder for boys now because they aren't included in xyz". And I laughed because when I was going through it (and I even admitted that I was in highschool in the 90s) women were regularly excluded and no one noticed or thought twice. I gave my anecdotal experience. We may not have been excluded by rule, but excluded because the assumption was "only boys care about this". So I found it somewhat ironic and slightly hypocritical that now boys are being given a pass on their struggles because "they're being excluded and school is geared to be easier for girls, so it's not fair".

That was pretty much the extent of my initial comment and it just snowballed from there as people claimed that ALL (yes, multiple people used absolute terms like "all") women are clingy, whiny, weepy, overly-emotional, backstabbing, shallow, not as smart, etc. How it went from my anecdotal example to now me somehow being an ultra-feminist who thinks all women are just the same as men, and all women in STEM are just as smart as men, and women should get a leg up over men, and I'm complaining that I'm not further in life because I didn't stand up for myself as a 14 year old...I have no idea how that happened.

My first job out of college was as a Trainmaster. Literally working in the train yards. In hindsight, did they give me the job for some DEI metric 20 years ago? Probably. But I was going to do my best to EARN respect and not DEMAND it. Even if it meant taking my share of abuse from my union direct reports over the radio for all to hear who called me a *****, told me to come over and suck their d****s, etc. Did i report them to HR or complain to my supervisors about it? No. Because I wanted to prove to them that I wasn't going to cry in my office. It wasn't going to break me.

Are there women who give others a bad name? Who are ****ty drivers, who cry in their office when faced with difficult criticism, who don't want to mess up their hair to put on a hard hat, who complain about being paid less (which statistics show isn't true).....absolutely. I've seen it firsthand. But the mentality that a lot seem to have that ALL women are like that and it's just inherent and there's nothing anyone can do about it is BS.

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I've repeatedly said my observations don't apply to all women but most women. Not sure why you keep trying to change that. There are certainly characteristics that virtually all women share to a degree just as men do but that's a conversation of degrees. I'm glad you fought through some harassment and didn't let it hold you back. I hope you give that advice to other women as well.

If anything I think you have a lot of men who walk on eggshells around women now and fear what they can do or say. It's actually made some of the progress reverse. Any kind of sexual harassment accusation is a career killer for a man in today's world so it makes it a safer bet not to engage. I know I watch some of the "training" videos that are required and it's a very fine line and the arbiter is how the woman feels and if they have a conversation privately without witnesses he can really be screwed.

I'm glad you shun female only clubs, my wife hates them as well. She thinks they are counterproductive. That doesn't change the fact they exist. Doesn't change the fact I get paid a bonus for female hires and managers in my company (like many companies) get rewarded or penalized based on the number of females they hire. Every time a woman gets hired and the perception is because she was a female and not because she was the most qualified it hurts women like yourself or my wife that don't want special treatment, they just want equal treatment. I don't see much of that at all among the younger generation though,

If you don't think men have to work harder and have fewer advantages that's fine. Strongly disagree but ok. Men are just used to having it harder and no one feeling sorry for them. I've told my boys that's just life and they just dig in. Fortunately for men they are inclined towards ignoring the emotion and pushing through. Women tend to be more naturally empathetic and that makes it more difficult to put feelings aside. Always exceptions of course but that's the norm.