ds00 said:

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Why do there have to be so many excuses made? The OP was about class rank, an objective criteria. If boys didn't make the grades oh well. Women are 49.6% of the population. They don't have to be considered a threat.

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You do realize that your bolded statement was exactly what was said when females complained about not performing well in education?

I find it hysterical that the formerly "oppressed" group immediately oppresses the supposed "oppressor".

Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

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I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

Now I'm trying to remember my high school class's top students:

1. Female (Vietnamese)
2. Male (Cuban)
3. Me = Male (White)
4 & 5 (don't remember which order): Female (White) & Male (Indian)

Diverse, but gender-balanced.

It's interesting that now it's "education is catered to women."

When I was in highschool in the 90s, that was definitely not true. We had an actual science & engineering course track and competitive team. Guess who was in it? All guys. Guess who they didn't even approach to ask if I was interested, despite being #2 in my class, scoring perfect ACT science score, all As from kinder through 12th grade, and going on to a STEM degree at A&M? Me. A girl. We just weren't thought of when it came to STEM in highschool. Despite that, our top 5 graduates were:
#1 - male, Asian
#2 - male, white
# 3 - female, white (I was #2 in my class until very last semester)
#4 - female, white
#5 - female, white

None of the females were in the science & engineering group.

So yeah, it's interesting how it's all flipped and excuses are being made for why boys aren't succeeding as much. When girls have been fighting against the disadvantages for decades and overcoming DESPITE that.

Emotional Support Cobra said:

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Boys are treated like defective girls instead of like boys.

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pujolshomerun.gif



This this a thousand times this.

So am I reading correctly that your example of being disadvantaged is someone not personally inviting you to a course track that you seemingly would have been interested in enough to join willingly? Not only was I not invited to the comp sci courses that our school had, we begged them to expand with more of them because we were interested. I'm willing to bet most people in various courses and programs didn't receive personal invitations.

Weak ass parents.

Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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I don't know. The Catholic Church I attended the other day announced scholarships after mass. All 10 were female. This church is not some some parish that prioritizes females over males.

I think technology is making young males stupid and lazy. Combined with the lack of opportunity to "learn the hard way" from parents willing to be a constant backstop, young men today lack the drive of previous generations, IMO. Fear of failure paralyzes them into indecision. It's a strange phenomenon that I've seen with a LOT of young men.

I have 4 boys and 2 girls. Just speaking from my observation.

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Men do better on all standardized tests across the board, so no men are not dumber. School is heavily female biased and frankly boring as hell for most men. High school was a joke for me and that was 25 years ago. I doubt much has changed in schools about how easy it is. There is no reason to work when school is this easy.

I never really had to try until later classes at A&M and then grad school. Once I did I got almost all A's.

---

I'm speaking to their motivations (which are stupid). They're no longer motivated to be successful and raise a family.

True happiness is delayed as they prefer to sit in front of a screen and game all day. It delays their maturation.

We can sit here and ***** about how hard boys have it, but their success ultimately starts at home. Parents coddle these dumbasses and then complain about how hard it is for them.

---

Please tell me more about maturity when women are addicted to social media validation to a hilariously greater extent than men. Yeah it's just men who are immature and women definitely aren't told they are little princesses who can do no wrong and crater at the first sign of constructive criticism.

Gaming is not an issue. I played video games an enormous amount as a kid and I am married with kids of my own now. That is not and never was the problem, but people like you, who don't understand the real issues, blame games for making boys not care anymore despite the overwhelming evidence that most of these boys are told they are basically evil from birth and are worthless while watching women get every single major opportunity. Yeah I'm sure that had no effect upon how these boys viewed school or definitely helped pushed them to try harder.

As a parent there is only so much you can do to combat general society. I'm raising my boys to understand that nothing will ever be given to them by general society and that the world is likely going to treat them terribly because they are white and male. They will have to scratch and claw for everything in life even if school comes easy. However, I will not remain blissfully ignorant about how society will view them and I will prepare them as much as I can for this.

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You know, I read things like this and wonder where some of y'all live.

I have a son and a daughter. 6th and 9th grade. I see amazing opportunities all around both of them and for both of them. My daughter is a Freshmen and has an opportunity to play major college sports if she sticks with it. She spends a month at a primitive summer camp on a river deep in the hill country doing some pretty tough stuff. My son is taking Freshmen Algebra in 7th grade next year and plays majors baseball. Both are NJHS. Both hunt. Both fish.

If you are somewhere where your kids are bing told they are worthless maybe you need to move or change whatever it is they are watching. My son, my nephews, and my young male cousins are never told that. Not at school, not on the field, not in 4H or FFA, not anywhere. They may come across some internet garbage but they don't listen to that nonsense.

Yes, I get that there will be times the deck is stacked against them. Hell I am a recent victim of a DEI hiring decision and have witnessed layoffs affect men more than women seemingly by design. But that's just the world man. My boy, and my family's boys will not be short on opportunity. Neither will our girls.

To add to that, they go to a public high school. A very good one that also provides amazing opportunities to hundreds of kids. And I say that as a supporter of vouchers.

tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

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I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

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I am very, very skeptical of those studies. 30 years of experience in Technical recruiting tells me otherwise. You absolutely have women that can outperform men but on the whole that just isn't the case. The areas of STEM women excel the most are Biology. The closer it gets to hardware or embedded programming or EE/ME though the fewer women that are interested or excel in it. Always exceptions of course, the 80/20 rule definitely applies. That said it is kind of like saying you can find some men that are better as Kinder teachers.

Nonregdrummer09 said:

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I have a young son and this is a topic I've been thinking about quite a bit lately.

At my high school alma mater, which has always been a highly competitive school, recently released their top ten graduating seniors and they were all women. This is the first time I had ever seen this, or know of this happening.

Now, this could be an outlier, the year before the ratio was 6 men and 4 women.

But there are several social indicators of women outperforming men across the board in recent years, like professional degrees, college admissions, and earnings. However, I certainly don't believe this is as a result of men simply being less capable.

Now, obviously much of this is a result of the inequalities women faced many years ago and attempts to correct it but at the same time there has been a huge villainizing of men and masculinity in media, society, and many times in the work place.

The question I have is, is the correction of equal opportunity for women over corrected to the point of needlessly villainizing men and resulting in less desire for boys and men to achieve, be productive members of society, and work to accomplish goals?

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This has happened for a while now. By the time I was hitting middle and high school in the late 90s, alarm bells were already being raised at how far behind boys were falling.

AJ02 said:

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It's interesting that now it's "education is catered to women."

When I was in highschool in the 90s, that was definitely not true. We had an actual science & engineering course track and competitive team. Guess who was in it? All guys. Guess who they didn't even approach to ask if I was interested, despite being #2 in my class, scoring perfect ACT science score, all As from kinder through 12th grade, and going on to a STEM degree at A&M? Me. A girl. We just weren't thought of when it came to STEM in highschool. Despite that, our top 5 graduates were:
#1 - male, Asian
#2 - male, white
# 3 - female, white (I was #2 in my class until very last semester)
#4 - female, white
#5 - female, white

None of the females were in the science & engineering group.

So yeah, it's interesting how it's all flipped and excuses are being made for why boys aren't succeeding as much. When girls have been fighting against the disadvantages for decades and overcoming DESPITE that.

---

Maybe you can list these disadvantages for women in STEM besides not having someone ask you to join a club. No one ever asked my son to join Robotics, he just wanted to do it and applied.

I can tell you that I get a bonus for every female engineer I hire as a recruiter. Management is heavily incentivized around it. Every HR and company meeting talks about it. There are massive numbers of scholarships exclusively for women in STEM and engineering. There are tons of networking groups only for women. As I mentioned before many Engineering schools will give significant preference to females, at Duke they get double credit in the evaluation for entry for instance. Those are actual biases and advantages for women.

I don't have sons so I can't speak to that, but my nephews and friends' sons all seemed flaky in high school and college. None were high achievers (unlike the children of TexAgs posters ).

Yet all of them have grown into responsible young men with good jobs and in some cases, families of their own. They make good money and seem to be thriving.

As others have said, I think a lot of the struggles we see are simply a reaction to the expectations that school places on kids. It is very much a female-dominated culture and males rebel in all sorts of ways. Plus, they are just wired differently.

When they hit the workforce and can focus on meaningful tasks that lead to financial rewards, they excel.

aggie93 said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

---

I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

---

I am very, very skeptical of those studies. 30 years of experience in Technical recruiting tells me otherwise. You absolutely have women that can outperform men but on the whole that just isn't the case. The areas of STEM women excel the most are Biology. The closer it gets to hardware or embedded programming or EE/ME though the fewer women that are interested or excel in it. Always exceptions of course, the 80/20 rule definitely applies. That said it is kind of like saying you can find some men that are better as Kinder teachers.

---

But that's exactly the point: women are generally not inclined to participate in STEM fields, but the ones who do, from an academic standpoint, are basically in line with men. In the workplace, the supposed difference can be seen in that women often don't have the same desire for career advancement as men, and more often than men, they choose their family/children over work.

I think men would be just as good kindergarten teachers as women; there are just fewer who desire to choose that career for various reasons, not the least of which is the low pay and low prestige. 75-80% of high school teachers are female, and that's not because women are better at educating our youth. How many of that 20-25% of male teachers are better "teachers" than their female counterparts?

This is somewhat off-topic, but personally, I think we need more males men Men in the classroom, especially at the JH and HS levels.

agsalaska said:

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You know, I read things like this and wonder where some of y'all live.

I have a son and a daughter. 6th and 9th grade. I see amazing opportunities all around both of them and for both of them. My daughter is a Freshmen and has an opportunity to play major college sports if she sticks with it. She spends a month at a primitive summer camp on a river deep in the hill country doing some pretty tough stuff. My son is taking Freshmen Algebra in 7th grade next year and plays majors baseball. Both are NJHS. Both hunt. Both fish.

If you are somewhere where your kids are bing told they are worthless maybe you need to move or change whatever it is they are watching. My son, my nephews, and my young male cousins are never told that. Not at school, not on the field, not in 4H or FFA, not anywhere. They may come across some internet garbage but they don't listen to that nonsense.

Yes, I get that there will be times the deck is stacked against them. Hell I am a recent victim of a DEI hiring decision and have witnessed layoffs affect men more than women seemingly by design. But that's just the world man. My boy, and my family's boys will not be short on opportunity. Neither will our girls.

To add to that, they go to a public high school. A very good one that also provides amazing opportunities to hundreds of kids. And I say that as a supporter of vouchers.

---

Look at the recent Boy Scouts to Scouting America change. There is hardly an institution left that is boy focused for boys only to help them develop into Men. It is 100% parent and community required (really always has been) now and the communities that exist like you described are getting harder and harder to find. My boys won't lack opportunities, won't be told they are worthless, won't be held back where we live currently, but they will face unfair adversity due to being white straight males when they leave their bubble. We left Houston suburbs in 2018 to a community like you describe and are loving it. Too bad we nationally these experiences are in the minority now.

The neo-marxist matriarchy has infested the government, the military, and major corporations. The social war on the nuclear family is in full swing and YOUR EXPERIENCE is losing. My experience is losing. So yes, it is harder to raise good men today. The school curriculum and social settings for youth are feminine by design. Parent accordingly.

aggie93 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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I don't know. The Catholic Church I attended the other day announced scholarships after mass. All 10 were female. This church is not some some parish that prioritizes females over males.

I think technology is making young males stupid and lazy. Combined with the lack of opportunity to "learn the hard way" from parents willing to be a constant backstop, young men today lack the drive of previous generations, IMO. Fear of failure paralyzes them into indecision. It's a strange phenomenon that I've seen with a LOT of young men.

I have 4 boys and 2 girls. Just speaking from my observation.

---

Men do better on all standardized tests across the board, so no men are not dumber. School is heavily female biased and frankly boring as hell for most men. High school was a joke for me and that was 25 years ago. I doubt much has changed in schools about how easy it is. There is no reason to work when school is this easy.

I never really had to try until later classes at A&M and then grad school. Once I did I got almost all A's.

---

I'm speaking to their motivations (which are stupid). They're no longer motivated to be successful and raise a family.

True happiness is delayed as they prefer to sit in front of a screen and game all day. It delays their maturation.

We can sit here and ***** about how hard boys have it, but their success ultimately starts at home. Parents coddle these dumbasses and then complain about how hard it is for them.

---

Please tell me more about maturity when women are addicted to social media validation to a hilariously greater extent than men. Yeah it's just men who are immature and women definitely aren't told they are little princesses who can do no wrong and crater at the first sign of constructive criticism.

Gaming is not an issue. I played video games an enormous amount as a kid and I am married with kids of my own now. That is not and never was the problem, but people like you, who don't understand the real issues, blame games for making boys not care anymore despite the overwhelming evidence that most of these boys are told they are basically evil from birth and are worthless while watching women get every single major opportunity. Yeah I'm sure that had no effect upon how these boys viewed school or definitely helped pushed them to try harder.

As a parent there is only so much you can do to combat general society. I'm raising my boys to understand that nothing will ever be given to them by general society and that the world is likely going to treat them terribly because they are white and male. They will have to scratch and claw for everything in life even if school comes easy. However, I will not remain blissfully ignorant about how society will view them and I will prepare them as much as I can for this.

---

Lot of harsh truths here. I have 2 boys, one in college and one in HS and I have gone out of my way to make sure they understand that no one will feel sorry for them, life is unfair, and they will have to just work that much harder than everyone else to succeed. It's worked better than I could have hoped and has given them a superpower. That superpower is they are much tougher than their competition, they brush off failures and it only makes them work harder. They have seen how that works. You get a door slammed and another opens if you keep working, eventually you find people that simply want the harder working person that doesn't sit around and complains, they just do. Very few women are like that because it works against their physiology and hormones that drives emotional behavior.

So much of school is designed around girls and to cater to them. Neither of my boys had what I would consider a masculine teacher until High School. They had 1 gay guy in their Elementary school and an ultra Beta in Middle School. The only masculine guys they saw were coaches. High school has been better but so much is already in place by then. You have to be actively engaged with boys as a parent or else it can end very badly.

It also never ceases to amaze me how much they reward females over males in education, it's even worse than the workforce. STEM is the worst. If a female shows any ability or interest at all they are praised and rewarded. If there is a club or activity they are always given preference both for membership and for leadership. My STEM focused son just kind of laughs about it as he sees the girls barely know what they are doing and constantly make mistakes he has to correct yet win all the awards and get the honors given by the teachers. He brushes it off because he is actually learning and knows what he is doing. Looking at applying to elite Engineering programs at places like Duke and they openly admit that a female gets double consideration over a male. Even a place like MIT is almost 50/50 Male/Female (52/48). If you honestly think that is because of merit for Engineering you need your head examined. That's fine, my son will simply outwork them and find his path.

Of course the sad thing is that I see so many of these women as a recruiter in Tech and they tend to burn out at a much faster rate than the men. Very few women truly love to do complex engineering for a variety of reasons and very few can do it better than men. So often they will pass the first interview but get crushed on the tech screen. Then if they get into management they really struggle with the stress and pace and ruthlessness of it. Jordan Peterson has given some great talks about this, it's just most women simply aren't willing to or don't want to make the level of sacrifices necessary to stay at the top in those worlds and if they do they are rarely happy.

One thing that flat out cracked me up though. I listen to a lot of Podcasts on College Admissions as my younger son is in that cycle. Realize that almost all of the folks that are in Admissions are Liberal Arts Majors that couldn't get a private sector job btw. They are also overwhelmingly female or very Beta male. Anyway, I listened to one where you had a few of them crying and whining about how a male who wants to attend a really good Liberal Arts school now has a significant advantage because there are so few men that want to do so anymore. Not talking about the super elites but the tier just below that. Those schools are all terrified of dropping below 40% male because it is death for them. Once that happens men stop applying and more interestingly so do women. Women want to go where the boys are. If anything men prefer a male dominated environment for college if they can find one. So what has happened is these LA schools are funding all kinds of men's sports and scholarships and doing all they can to get men to come there and it infuriates these College Admin types. Of course they have zero cognitive dissonance about how men feel about women in STEM. They also put very little value on team sports accomplishments but find a girl who is a great Flute player and they swoon.

In the end the key is to make sure your sons don't get discouraged by school and just keep working. If you have daughters make sure they think about what they really want in life and not what society is telling them to want. For both of them try to keep them away from social media and spending time outdoors and active as much as possible and expose them to as many experiences as you can to show them the world is bigger than the bubble they grow up in.

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Aggie93 your contributions to this board are outstanding. Thanks for weighing in on this one.

HumbleAg04 said:

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agsalaska said:

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You know, I read things like this and wonder where some of y'all live.

I have a son and a daughter. 6th and 9th grade. I see amazing opportunities all around both of them and for both of them. My daughter is a Freshmen and has an opportunity to play major college sports if she sticks with it. She spends a month at a primitive summer camp on a river deep in the hill country doing some pretty tough stuff. My son is taking Freshmen Algebra in 7th grade next year and plays majors baseball. Both are NJHS. Both hunt. Both fish.

If you are somewhere where your kids are bing told they are worthless maybe you need to move or change whatever it is they are watching. My son, my nephews, and my young male cousins are never told that. Not at school, not on the field, not in 4H or FFA, not anywhere. They may come across some internet garbage but they don't listen to that nonsense.

Yes, I get that there will be times the deck is stacked against them. Hell I am a recent victim of a DEI hiring decision and have witnessed layoffs affect men more than women seemingly by design. But that's just the world man. My boy, and my family's boys will not be short on opportunity. Neither will our girls.

To add to that, they go to a public high school. A very good one that also provides amazing opportunities to hundreds of kids. And I say that as a supporter of vouchers.

---

Look at the recent Boy Scouts to Scouting America change. There is hardly an institution left that is boy focused for boys only to help them develop into Men. It is 100% parent and community required (really always has been) now and the communities that exist like you described are getting harder and harder to find. My boys won't lack opportunities, won't be told they are worthless, won't be held back where we live currently, but they will face unfair adversity due to being white straight males when they leave their bubble. We left Houston suburbs in 2018 to a community like you describe and are loving it. Too bad we nationally these experiences are in the minority now.

The neo-marxist matriarchy has infested the government, the military, and major corporations. The social war on the nuclear family is in full swing and YOUR EXPERIENCE is losing. My experience is losing. So yes, it is harder to raise good men today. The school curriculum and social settings for youth are feminine by design. Parent accordingly.

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Yea I guess but to be clear thats not exactly what I was responding too.

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of that. I think your second paragraph is a symptom of the general downfall of western civilization that we are witnessing. I just think it is massively overblown. Victimhood sells, and echo chambers are toxic. And a lot of the rhetoric we see, like what I was originally replying too, is from people who spend too much time in them.

Depending on how old your kids are, they have been nonstop screeched at for the last 10-15 years about 'toxic masculinity' and how its bad to be masculine. Add this to what the 2nd or 3rd post on this thread posted -- if you really want to know where it started, read Christina Hoff Summers book "War Against Boys". Should be required reading for every dad of boys.

It started in the 90s (or perhaps sooner) when teachers got tired of the fact that that little girls are less fidgety, outspoken, impulsive, and by their very nature do not want to sit down at school for hours a day, so they started diagnosing them with ADHD and playing with the chemistry set in their brains. I think what a poster above said "They started treating boys like defective girls instead of just boys" is a quote from that book.

Feminism has for several decades now tried to feminize men. Then, they promote women to positions they dont earn to "fix the equality gap" and there you have it. It turns into this runaway train that is now out of control.

The books they are also required to read are not stories that are interesting to boys. There's a lot more to it, but if you are really asking in earnest, read the book.

Fenrir said:

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So am I reading correctly that your example of being disadvantaged is someone not personally inviting you to a course track that you seemingly would have been interested in enough to join willingly? Not only was I not invited to the comp sci courses that our school had, we begged them to expand with more of them because we were interested. I'm willing to bet most people in various courses and programs didn't receive personal invitations.

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Teachers got together and put a list of students together that they wanted to ask. It wasn't like you could just sign up for it. And it was just sort of taken at face value back then....if you didn't get asked, it was because the teachers didn't think you were acceptable to join for whatever reason.

aggie93 said:

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Maybe you can list these disadvantages for women in STEM besides not having someone ask you to join a club. No one ever asked my son to join Robotics, he just wanted to do it and applied.

I can tell you that I get a bonus for every female engineer I hire as a recruiter. Management is heavily incentivized around it. Every HR and company meeting talks about it. There are massive numbers of scholarships exclusively for women in STEM and engineering. There are tons of networking groups only for women. As I mentioned before many Engineering schools will give significant preference to females, at Duke they get double credit in the evaluation for entry for instance. Those are actual biases and advantages for women.

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It wasn't an "ask to join and you're admitted" or "apply to join and get selected." It was a group of teachers meeting together and determining who they were picking to join the program.

BadMoonRisin said:

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Depending on how old your kids are, they have been nonstop screeched at for the last 10-15 years about 'toxic masculinity' and how its bad to be masculine. Add this to what the 2nd or 3rd post on this thread posted -- if you really want to know where it started, read Christina Hoff Summers book "War Against Boys". Should be required reading for every dad of boys.

It started in the 90s (or perhaps sooner) when teachers got tired of the fact that that little girls are less fidgety, outspoken, impulsive, and by their very nature do not want to sit down at school for hours a day, so they started diagnosing them with ADHD and playing with the chemistry set in their brains. I think what a poster above said "They started treating boys like defective girls instead of just boys" is a quote from that book.

Feminism has for several decades now tried to feminize men. Then, they promote women to positions they dont earn to "fix the equality gap" and there you have it. It turns into this runaway train that is now out of control.

The books they are also required to read are not stories that are interesting to boys. There's a lot more to it, but if you are really asking in earnest, read the book.

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My son is 12 and my daughter is 15. They go to a 5a high school and spend their fair share of time on the internet.

My guess is neither have ever even heard the phrase 'toxic masculinity.'


Is some of what you posted happening? Sure. There is certainly a general softening or my favorite term wussification of Western society at large.

But as an analogy its like the porn in the libraries debate. Is there an issue. Sure. Do a few books need to go, probably. But if you read our local FB group they would have you believe that our librarians were sitting our kids down by the hundreds and giving gay sex lessons to 10 year olds when in reality 99% of the students and staff didn't even know the books were there. That's what its like reading this thread.

There are problems but a lot of this is not day to day reality.

Was this actual courses or an after school program or what?

It should be obvious why girls would generally out perform boys in a setting that rewards sitting still and listening

tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

---

I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

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They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

tysker said:

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aggie93 said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

---

I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

---

I am very, very skeptical of those studies. 30 years of experience in Technical recruiting tells me otherwise. You absolutely have women that can outperform men but on the whole that just isn't the case. The areas of STEM women excel the most are Biology. The closer it gets to hardware or embedded programming or EE/ME though the fewer women that are interested or excel in it. Always exceptions of course, the 80/20 rule definitely applies. That said it is kind of like saying you can find some men that are better as Kinder teachers.

---

But that's exactly the point: women are generally not inclined to participate in STEM fields, but the ones who do, from an academic standpoint, are basically in line with men. In the workplace, the supposed difference can be seen in that women often don't have the same desire for career advancement as men, and more often than men, they choose their family/children over work.

I think men would be just as good kindergarten teachers as women; there are just fewer who desire to choose that career for various reasons, not the least of which is the low pay and low prestige. 75-80% of high school teachers are female, and that's not because women are better at educating our youth. How many 20-25% of male teachers are better "teachers" than their female counterparts?

This is somewhat off-topic, but personally, I think we need more males men Men in the classroom, especially at the JH and HS levels.

---

I actually still think those studies are skewed. A lot of girls in the current generation are being pushed into STEM. I do think we agree that the academic side is just one measurement as well.

Agree with you we need more men to go into Education. Boys AND girls benefit from having male teachers instead of overwhelmingly female. As I said my boys literally had 1 teacher each prior to High School that was male and one way gay and the other was a super Beta. Just very hard to find them.

aggie93 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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I don't know. The Catholic Church I attended the other day announced scholarships after mass. All 10 were female. This church is not some some parish that prioritizes females over males.

I think technology is making young males stupid and lazy. Combined with the lack of opportunity to "learn the hard way" from parents willing to be a constant backstop, young men today lack the drive of previous generations, IMO. Fear of failure paralyzes them into indecision. It's a strange phenomenon that I've seen with a LOT of young men.

I have 4 boys and 2 girls. Just speaking from my observation.

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Men do better on all standardized tests across the board, so no men are not dumber. School is heavily female biased and frankly boring as hell for most men. High school was a joke for me and that was 25 years ago. I doubt much has changed in schools about how easy it is. There is no reason to work when school is this easy.

I never really had to try until later classes at A&M and then grad school. Once I did I got almost all A's.

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I'm speaking to their motivations (which are stupid). They're no longer motivated to be successful and raise a family.

True happiness is delayed as they prefer to sit in front of a screen and game all day. It delays their maturation.

We can sit here and ***** about how hard boys have it, but their success ultimately starts at home. Parents coddle these dumbasses and then complain about how hard it is for them.

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Please tell me more about maturity when women are addicted to social media validation to a hilariously greater extent than men. Yeah it's just men who are immature and women definitely aren't told they are little princesses who can do no wrong and crater at the first sign of constructive criticism.

Gaming is not an issue. I played video games an enormous amount as a kid and I am married with kids of my own now. That is not and never was the problem, but people like you, who don't understand the real issues, blame games for making boys not care anymore despite the overwhelming evidence that most of these boys are told they are basically evil from birth and are worthless while watching women get every single major opportunity. Yeah I'm sure that had no effect upon how these boys viewed school or definitely helped pushed them to try harder.

As a parent there is only so much you can do to combat general society. I'm raising my boys to understand that nothing will ever be given to them by general society and that the world is likely going to treat them terribly because they are white and male. They will have to scratch and claw for everything in life even if school comes easy. However, I will not remain blissfully ignorant about how society will view them and I will prepare them as much as I can for this.

---

Lot of harsh truths here. I have 2 boys, one in college and one in HS and I have gone out of my way to make sure they understand that no one will feel sorry for them, life is unfair, and they will have to just work that much harder than everyone else to succeed. It's worked better than I could have hoped and has given them a superpower. That superpower is they are much tougher than their competition, they brush off failures and it only makes them work harder. They have seen how that works. You get a door slammed and another opens if you keep working, eventually you find people that simply want the harder working person that doesn't sit around and complains, they just do. Very few women are like that because it works against their physiology and hormones that drives emotional behavior.

So much of school is designed around girls and to cater to them. Neither of my boys had what I would consider a masculine teacher until High School. They had 1 gay guy in their Elementary school and an ultra Beta in Middle School. The only masculine guys they saw were coaches. High school has been better but so much is already in place by then. You have to be actively engaged with boys as a parent or else it can end very badly.

It also never ceases to amaze me how much they reward females over males in education, it's even worse than the workforce. STEM is the worst. If a female shows any ability or interest at all they are praised and rewarded. If there is a club or activity they are always given preference both for membership and for leadership. My STEM focused son just kind of laughs about it as he sees the girls barely know what they are doing and constantly make mistakes he has to correct yet win all the awards and get the honors given by the teachers. He brushes it off because he is actually learning and knows what he is doing. Looking at applying to elite Engineering programs at places like Duke and they openly admit that a female gets double consideration over a male. Even a place like MIT is almost 50/50 Male/Female (52/48). If you honestly think that is because of merit for Engineering you need your head examined. That's fine, my son will simply outwork them and find his path.

Of course the sad thing is that I see so many of these women as a recruiter in Tech and they tend to burn out at a much faster rate than the men. Very few women truly love to do complex engineering for a variety of reasons and very few can do it better than men. So often they will pass the first interview but get crushed on the tech screen. Then if they get into management they really struggle with the stress and pace and ruthlessness of it. Jordan Peterson has given some great talks about this, it's just most women simply aren't willing to or don't want to make the level of sacrifices necessary to stay at the top in those worlds and if they do they are rarely happy.

One thing that flat out cracked me up though. I listen to a lot of Podcasts on College Admissions as my younger son is in that cycle. Realize that almost all of the folks that are in Admissions are Liberal Arts Majors that couldn't get a private sector job btw. They are also overwhelmingly female or very Beta male. Anyway, I listened to one where you had a few of them crying and whining about how a male who wants to attend a really good Liberal Arts school now has a significant advantage because there are so few men that want to do so anymore. Not talking about the super elites but the tier just below that. Those schools are all terrified of dropping below 40% male because it is death for them. Once that happens men stop applying and more interestingly so do women. Women want to go where the boys are. If anything men prefer a male dominated environment for college if they can find one. So what has happened is these LA schools are funding all kinds of men's sports and scholarships and doing all they can to get men to come there and it infuriates these College Admin types. Of course they have zero cognitive dissonance about how men feel about women in STEM. They also put very little value on team sports accomplishments but find a girl who is a great Flute player and they swoon.

In the end the key is to make sure your sons don't get discouraged by school and just keep working. If you have daughters make sure they think about what they really want in life and not what society is telling them to want. For both of them try to keep them away from social media and spending time outdoors and active as much as possible and expose them to as many experiences as you can to show them the world is bigger than the bubble they grow up in.

---

Seriously? Women aren't cut out for STEM because of "hormones"? In 2024? Hopefully you never get the pleasure of raising daughters.

Tangent topic: Authors.

I'm a big sci-fi / fantasy reader. Historically, these genres were dominated by men with some notably great female authors. In the last 5-10 years, I've seen almost a 180 in who is writing in these genres. Absolutely dominated by females now and females are promoted over men.

When I go into a B&N, the New Fiction section at the front of the store is 80/20 female to men. The RomCom Fantasy genre absolutely dominates the market now. That is partially and simply due to demand - women want to read that, but it's also seemingly crowding out a lot of other sub-genres.

When you review the annual Best Book awards on GoodReads, it's dominated by women as well. I know that some of this is women getting to par with men like everywhere else and that's fine, but it certainly seems like everything has been way over corrected. If I recall, there was actually sort of a scandal with those awards a few years ago because they were apparently manipulated for political reasons, but I don't recall the details.

And on top of that, having a female as the protagonist has way over corrected as well.

ds00 said:

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aggie93 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Bird Poo said:

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I don't know. The Catholic Church I attended the other day announced scholarships after mass. All 10 were female. This church is not some some parish that prioritizes females over males.

I think technology is making young males stupid and lazy. Combined with the lack of opportunity to "learn the hard way" from parents willing to be a constant backstop, young men today lack the drive of previous generations, IMO. Fear of failure paralyzes them into indecision. It's a strange phenomenon that I've seen with a LOT of young men.

I have 4 boys and 2 girls. Just speaking from my observation.

---

Men do better on all standardized tests across the board, so no men are not dumber. School is heavily female biased and frankly boring as hell for most men. High school was a joke for me and that was 25 years ago. I doubt much has changed in schools about how easy it is. There is no reason to work when school is this easy.

I never really had to try until later classes at A&M and then grad school. Once I did I got almost all A's.

---

I'm speaking to their motivations (which are stupid). They're no longer motivated to be successful and raise a family.

True happiness is delayed as they prefer to sit in front of a screen and game all day. It delays their maturation.

We can sit here and ***** about how hard boys have it, but their success ultimately starts at home. Parents coddle these dumbasses and then complain about how hard it is for them.

---

Please tell me more about maturity when women are addicted to social media validation to a hilariously greater extent than men. Yeah it's just men who are immature and women definitely aren't told they are little princesses who can do no wrong and crater at the first sign of constructive criticism.

Gaming is not an issue. I played video games an enormous amount as a kid and I am married with kids of my own now. That is not and never was the problem, but people like you, who don't understand the real issues, blame games for making boys not care anymore despite the overwhelming evidence that most of these boys are told they are basically evil from birth and are worthless while watching women get every single major opportunity. Yeah I'm sure that had no effect upon how these boys viewed school or definitely helped pushed them to try harder.

As a parent there is only so much you can do to combat general society. I'm raising my boys to understand that nothing will ever be given to them by general society and that the world is likely going to treat them terribly because they are white and male. They will have to scratch and claw for everything in life even if school comes easy. However, I will not remain blissfully ignorant about how society will view them and I will prepare them as much as I can for this.

---

Lot of harsh truths here. I have 2 boys, one in college and one in HS and I have gone out of my way to make sure they understand that no one will feel sorry for them, life is unfair, and they will have to just work that much harder than everyone else to succeed. It's worked better than I could have hoped and has given them a superpower. That superpower is they are much tougher than their competition, they brush off failures and it only makes them work harder. They have seen how that works. You get a door slammed and another opens if you keep working, eventually you find people that simply want the harder working person that doesn't sit around and complains, they just do. Very few women are like that because it works against their physiology and hormones that drives emotional behavior.

So much of school is designed around girls and to cater to them. Neither of my boys had what I would consider a masculine teacher until High School. They had 1 gay guy in their Elementary school and an ultra Beta in Middle School. The only masculine guys they saw were coaches. High school has been better but so much is already in place by then. You have to be actively engaged with boys as a parent or else it can end very badly.

It also never ceases to amaze me how much they reward females over males in education, it's even worse than the workforce. STEM is the worst. If a female shows any ability or interest at all they are praised and rewarded. If there is a club or activity they are always given preference both for membership and for leadership. My STEM focused son just kind of laughs about it as he sees the girls barely know what they are doing and constantly make mistakes he has to correct yet win all the awards and get the honors given by the teachers. He brushes it off because he is actually learning and knows what he is doing. Looking at applying to elite Engineering programs at places like Duke and they openly admit that a female gets double consideration over a male. Even a place like MIT is almost 50/50 Male/Female (52/48). If you honestly think that is because of merit for Engineering you need your head examined. That's fine, my son will simply outwork them and find his path.

Of course the sad thing is that I see so many of these women as a recruiter in Tech and they tend to burn out at a much faster rate than the men. Very few women truly love to do complex engineering for a variety of reasons and very few can do it better than men. So often they will pass the first interview but get crushed on the tech screen. Then if they get into management they really struggle with the stress and pace and ruthlessness of it. Jordan Peterson has given some great talks about this, it's just most women simply aren't willing to or don't want to make the level of sacrifices necessary to stay at the top in those worlds and if they do they are rarely happy.

One thing that flat out cracked me up though. I listen to a lot of Podcasts on College Admissions as my younger son is in that cycle. Realize that almost all of the folks that are in Admissions are Liberal Arts Majors that couldn't get a private sector job btw. They are also overwhelmingly female or very Beta male. Anyway, I listened to one where you had a few of them crying and whining about how a male who wants to attend a really good Liberal Arts school now has a significant advantage because there are so few men that want to do so anymore. Not talking about the super elites but the tier just below that. Those schools are all terrified of dropping below 40% male because it is death for them. Once that happens men stop applying and more interestingly so do women. Women want to go where the boys are. If anything men prefer a male dominated environment for college if they can find one. So what has happened is these LA schools are funding all kinds of men's sports and scholarships and doing all they can to get men to come there and it infuriates these College Admin types. Of course they have zero cognitive dissonance about how men feel about women in STEM. They also put very little value on team sports accomplishments but find a girl who is a great Flute player and they swoon.

In the end the key is to make sure your sons don't get discouraged by school and just keep working. If you have daughters make sure they think about what they really want in life and not what society is telling them to want. For both of them try to keep them away from social media and spending time outdoors and active as much as possible and expose them to as many experiences as you can to show them the world is bigger than the bubble they grow up in.

---

Seriously? Women aren't cut out for STEM because of "hormones"? In 2024? Hopefully you never get the pleasure of raising daughters.

---

Believe it or not men and women are indeed different.

YouBet said:

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Tangent topic: Authors.

I'm a big sci-fi / fantasy reader. Historically, these genres were dominated by men with some notably great female authors. In the last 5-10 years, I've seen almost a 180 in who is writing in these genres. Absolutely dominated by females now and females are promoted over men.

When I go into a B&N, the New Fiction section at the front of the store is 80/20 female to men. The RomCom Fantasy genre absolutely dominates the market now. That is partially and simply due to demand - women want to read that, but it's also seemingly crowding out a lot of other sub-genres.

When you review the annual Best Book awards on GoodReads, it's dominated by women as well. I know that some of this is women getting to par with men like everywhere else and that's fine, but it certainly seems like everything has been way over corrected. If I recall, there was actually sort of a scandal with those awards a few years ago because they were apparently manipulated for political reasons, but I don't recall the details.

And on top of that, having a female as the protagonist has way over corrected as well.

---

I encourage you to gravitate to the indie science fiction scene on Kindle Unlimited. Plenty of male authors writing great stuff. Check out Michael Anderle and Jaxon Reed just to name a couple.

Fenrir said:

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Was this actual courses or an after school program or what?

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After school program specific to science & engineering. Led and taught by one specific teacher. And they would oftentimes get pulled out of class to go work with him and get to do state competitions.

techno-ag said:

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YouBet said:

---

Tangent topic: Authors.

I'm a big sci-fi / fantasy reader. Historically, these genres were dominated by men with some notably great female authors. In the last 5-10 years, I've seen almost a 180 in who is writing in these genres. Absolutely dominated by females now and females are promoted over men.

When I go into a B&N, the New Fiction section at the front of the store is 80/20 female to men. The RomCom Fantasy genre absolutely dominates the market now. That is partially and simply due to demand - women want to read that, but it's also seemingly crowding out a lot of other sub-genres.

When you review the annual Best Book awards on GoodReads, it's dominated by women as well. I know that some of this is women getting to par with men like everywhere else and that's fine, but it certainly seems like everything has been way over corrected. If I recall, there was actually sort of a scandal with those awards a few years ago because they were apparently manipulated for political reasons, but I don't recall the details.

And on top of that, having a female as the protagonist has way over corrected as well.

---

I encourage you to gravitate to the indie science fiction scene on Kindle Unlimited. Plenty of male authors writing great stuff. Check out Michael Anderle and Jaxon Reed just to name a couple.

---

I have signed up for that but not sure what is crap and what isn't. Thanks for the recs.

Nanomachines son said:

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tysker said:

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Quote:

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When it comes to stem, on average, men outperform females and it's not close. Many believe it's testosterone related. Men have risen to the top in those disciplines because they excel in them.

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I think most studies show that women who enter STEM education perform on par with men. The numbers are skewed due to the number of men who think they can compete

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They don't and it becomes very obvious in the workforce. I have legitimately never met an exceptional female engineer in my 20 year career. They all cluster near the average at best. Men are simply better engineers and it's not really close. Virtually every woman I have met in a managerial engineering role was not qualified to be there and was promoted because she was a woman.

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There are plenty of unqualified managers in all fields. I think there is a difference between an academically high-achieving student, and a high-quality worker, and a high-quality manager. The skills to be good in the classroom are different than those trying to manage people in a high-stress business environment. Women may produce less in the workforce and often dont obtain managerial or executive roles for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they make different choices about family and children than men do. But in school and college, from an academic standpoint, the studies suggest females perform about as well as their male classmates.

So the average female engineer isnt as high as male, but what about the variance? Are the worst female engineers on par with the worst males?

Also, why would a woman want a career as an engineer? Have you met an engineer? I guess you have, so you know how painfully boring and creepy it is for others. Well, imagine being a smart and averagely attractive woman surrounded by 20 or 30 of those people on a daily basis. Women have and make choices that men do not.

BonfireNerd04 said:

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Now I'm trying to remember my high school class's top students:

1. Female (Vietnamese)
2. Male (Cuban)
3. Me = Male (White)
4 & 5 (don't remember which order): Female (White) & Male (Indian)

Diverse, but gender-balanced.

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We had
1. Female (Ginger)
2. Female (hispanic)
3. Male (white)
4. Female (white)


It's a bit dishonest, though. Everyone knew #3 was easily the brightest in our class. He was taking senior math his freshman year and got some obscene score on his SAT (like a 1580 or something) and a perfect on his ACT. He didn't want to give a speech, though, so he calculated how he could drop to be number 3 in the class and not give a speech. He now lives is Boca Raton and makes money as a poker player. I hear he's pretty good.

The valedictorian is a former teacher/coach turned stay-at-home-mom, the salutatorian flitted about from one job to another but never really climbed the ladder or did much of anything and now works a part-time job in an office so she can be there for her kids. And the number 4 really flamed out.

Logos Stick said:

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Yes. Next question.

War on Boys was published in 2009:

"Girls and women were once second-class citizens in the nation's schools. Americans responded with concerted efforts to give girls and women the attention and assistance that was long overdue. Now, after two major waves of feminism and decades of policy reform, women have made massive strides in education. Today they outperform men in nearly every measure of social, academic, and vocational well-being.

Sommers argues that the problem of male underachievement is persistent and worsening. Among the new topics Sommers tackles: how the war against boys is harming our economic future, and how boy-averse trends such as the decline of recess and zero-tolerance disciplinary policies have turned our schools into hostile environments for boys. As our schools become more feelings-centered, risk-averse, competition-free, and sedentary, they move further and further from the characteristic needs of boys. She offers realistic, achievable solutions to these problems that include boy-friendly pedagogy, character and vocational education, and the choice of single-sex classrooms."

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It continues into and through college and indeed into the workplace. The pendulum has swung so far in the other direction that we're seeing detrimental effects on males, lead by Title IX and the lunacy that law has become.

SunrayAg said:

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Girls have p....

Boys spend all their time trying to figure out how to get p....

Advantage girls.



But in reality we live in a society where, for boys especially, athletic achievement is FAR more respected than academic achievement at the high school level.

Study hard, rank high, get accepted to a good college... gets you bullied and treated like garbage for being smarter than everybody else.

Be illiterate, run fast, jump high... get a parade and t-shirts made honoring your achievements, and a signing ceremony if a college wants you to run fast and jump high there.

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I always enjoy watching college educated professional athletes that can't put two words together in an interview.

I'm skeptical of how they would have actually kept out an interested person in a school program on the basis of gender even 30 years ago, but I can certainly understand how it would have been difficult to make your desire to be a part of this program known especially in a time and place where the women in STEM push was not nearly the thing it is now.

I was involved with a group of kids that pushed for the creation of two additional computer programming courses. Nobody was going to be told they weren't welcome. The 2nd course we almost didn't get because there were only 4 of us interested but luckily one was the son of the programming teacher and she pushed hard to get it added as well.