doubledog said:
BQRyno said:
doubledog said:
BQRyno said:
doubledog said:
12mn95 said:
BonfireNerd04 said:
12mn95 said:
Sims said:
Huge difference between those who identify as Jewish from a cultural perspective versus those who identify as Jewish from a religious perspective. That distinction is certainly something to consider in his commentary (admittedly I haven't listened to it)
Very similar to many Democrat's "I'm devoutly Catholic" but "let's kill all the babies" behavior.
Or Republicans "I'm devoutly Catholic" but are for the death penalty. Catholicism vehemently opposes capital punishment. If you are Catholic both instances are wrong...
The problem with this argument is that the scales of the problems are nowhere near equivalent.
While Roe was in effect, the USA had an average of 1.2 million abortions per year (though the numbers had been declining recently). But only about 30 executions per year.
Does the "murder" of a convict outweigh that of 40,000 unborn? Especially when you consider that the person had a Constitutional guarantee of a fair trial and protection from "cruel and unusual punishment", which victims of abortion don't get?
Is "the lesser of two evils" not quantifiable?
no it isn't...if you are a devout Catholic, which I am, BOTH are wrong. There is a reason the Catholic church is not OK with abortions AND capital punishment. You can't justify one just because the other is "more wrong". Just because there, as you say, 30 executions per year that makes it ok for you? Is there a number of executions where you go, well that's too many for me?
If you are pro-life, then you should be for life from conception to a natural death and damn the politics.
This has not been the Catholic or Protestant view until very recently. I'm not sure if you are saying this is a religious argument or not. If you are, there is certainly a plausible Christian defense for capital punishment. Going back to Pope John Paul II, the perspective began being shared that one of the reasons for capital punishment was to protect the public. Frankly, that's not what the Bible indicates.
1965 to be precise, at least officially for Catholics (2nd Vatican council). So tell me what the "Bible indicates"
The Bible indicates that it's a punishment for taking a life created in the image of God.
As far as the 2nd Vatican council, you must be referring to the subsequent abolition of the death penalty in Vatican City itself. That's not the same thing, and afterward popes continued to confirm that capital punishment was acceptable as a form of punishment imposed by the state in some circumstances. If you want to debate, we at least have to agree on the facts. The Catholic doctrine on the death penalty didn't actually change until within the last 10 years unless I'm mistaken.
And where in the new testament did Jesus say that again?
Please link a reference where any pope after the 2nd Vatican Council supported the death penalty;
I did not say popes supported the death penalty. I said popes confirmed that capital punishment was acceptable as a form of punishment imposed by the state in some circumstances:
"The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent."
- Pope John Paul II,
Evangelium Vitae, 1995
The New Testament leaves the subject unsettled, which is why I believe there is debate. Jesus does not address it directly. Paul comes close in Romans 13:1-7. I'm not saying it's clearly permitted. I'm saying there are Christian arguments both for and against capital punishment, and the Catholic doctrine only changed under Pope Francis. Even that change continues to be debated by clergy.