Joes said:

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TH36 said:

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I happened to get an apprentice this week who is of Moroccan decent and Muslim (not one taking part in the religion) and he's blinded as well. I think it's mostly cause he's 19 but he's all about "no innocent people should die on either side" and I keep telling him to tell that to the people who had family members tortured, beheaded, and kidnapped. He laughs like that's fake news but yet he cited the hospital being blown up….which we all know is fake.

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Yep. I swear if Kristallnacht happened with today's media and culture by the next day all we'd be hearing about is deep concern about disproportionate retaliatory attacks against Nazis.

And I'm sorry, but for all those on this thread who keep hyping the "Israel doesn't give a **** what anybody thinks" that's obviously not true or they wouldn't have IDF spokespeople and politicians on every channel stating their case and providing that awful footage to outside media and such. It absolutely does matter to them.

None of this means they won't invade, they still might, but the people here dismissing America's influence and general world opinion on their actions are just way off base I think. That tiny country can't operate in a total vacuum and alienating everyone.

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You are 100% correct in everything you stated above

as a small country surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims- OF COURSE Israel has to care about world opinion and support.

The large influential accounts who shared Hamas giving tea to the 85 years old hostages yesterday were only helping the murderous Hamas terrorists spread their propaganda.

Yochaved Lifshitz, who escaped captivity by the murderers and Nazis Hamas-ISIS: "They beat me, laid me on… pic.twitter.com/K3tiFlSwXw

— The Mossad: Satirical, Yet Awesome (@TheMossadIL) October 24, 2023

IDF:
Over the past few hours, the IDF acted on precise ISA intelligence and killed a number of Hamas terrorist organization operatives, including:
Abed Alrahman - Deputy Commander of the Nuseirat Battalion, who took part in the Kibbutz Be'eri massacre
Khalil Muhajez - Deputy…

— Joe Truzman (@JoeTruzman) October 24, 2023

LMCane said:

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No Gore-

but if you watch this and don't tear up a bit you aren't a decent human being.

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Wow. No words!

Eliminatus said:

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BTHOB said:

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And, yet, the USA (and most of the rest of the world plus the media) continue to push for a delay / pause in full-scale ground invasion...

Israel waited too long. After the narrative started to change and the initial atrocities committed by Hamas began to fade into the 'last week' and 'two weeks ago' categories it became predictable that no full-scale ground invasion would take place.

I've predicted for over a week now that only minor ground incursions might take place, but nothing close to the 'full-scale invasion' that's been plastered all over the news. I guess we'll just continue to wait and see...

Unfortunately, if no full-scale ground invasion takes place, we'll be right back here in 5 years (or less) with another senseless terrorist tragedy inflicted upon the Israeli people.

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Maybe/maybe not. I tend to agree but because I believe a general ground invasion right now would do more damage to Israel than most here would believe. I don't think it is so much a "waited too long" as much as "they were not ready and need to be smart".

A quote from me on the 9th:

Quote:

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I don't begrudge them for what is about to happen but damn me if I don't think this is ultimately a lose/lose situation either for them.

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I am not saying Israel will not be able to meet their immediate tactical objectives but as a total I figure a pyrrhic victory at best. If they get embroiled down in a OIF style occupation, it will probably break Israel. They cannot sustain that for long. If they go Battle of Fallujah method, they will lose a lot of soldiers and likely every single shred of PR they might be clinging to, period. The greatest and most effective HAMAS weapon of all time is a dead Palestinian civilian and there will be tons of them if a open engagement ground invasion occurs. And like it or not, but PR still matters in this world. Even now. Especially negative PR which no one here can deny does not exist and does not have an affect on world actions.

Open fighting in a rubbled city is an f'ing nightmare and negates many tactical advantages of an attacker. Mix in one of the more densely populated cities and the fighting will be nasty from the first seconds if HAMAS decides to fight to the end. I see no possible scenario where Israel emerges from that as a glorious victor. A shellshocked survivor at best maybe.

Ignore the "Glass them" crowd. We are dealing with reality and the reality is that Gaza will likely suck in Israel into a long drawn out battle it cannot hope to sustain for long with the forces it has drawn up. Most of which will be reservists. I have the utmost respect for reservists in general and especially the Israeli model, but in a house to house battle against the arch enemy personified is going to shatter a lot of them. Just look at our PTSD cases from Fallujah and Ramadi. And that is with trained professionals. You are going to be asking school teachers and cashiers into tunnels against a masked enemy who is willing to die in order to see their enemies dead. I've crawled down an Afghani terrorist tunnel before with an M9 and Surefire. I don't wish that on anyone. (Thanks mom and dad for making a 5'6" 150 lbs son)

And all of this is not taking in the better than even odds Israel finds itself in a two front war...

All just my opinion of course and open to discussion/revision. My only real hard stance is Israel should NOT have gone straight into Gaza in the hours/ few days following the 7th. That would have been f'ing stupid on their part. Act, but be smart about it and don't throw your people/nation into situations they are not ready for.

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This gels with what happened when Israel last fought Hezbollah. It was a sobering experience for the troops.

They are going to have to go into Gaza, politically they have to.
They are no doubt using this time to pound Hamas as best they can, and to "train-up" their reservists. Getting embroiled in Gaza could very well embolden Hezbollah and their neighbors and make things a lot worse.

It never ceases to amaze how easy it is to interrogate some of these guys. I wonder just how detailed the orders were. This seems like they used more extensive plans in a limited way to provoke Israel and derail the Israeli-Saudi peace process at the behest of Iran. They used Hamas instead of Hezbollah to protect the larger striking power they've built up in Lebanon and continue to use the "poor Palestine" shtick.

To be honest from a geopolitical perspective it's not a terrible operational concept. The tragedy is immense and undeniable and will get worse. Iran needs to be taught a lesson. They won't learn it well, but it needs to be taught before it's too late. If it isn't already.

aezmvp said:

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It never ceases to amaze how easy it is to interrogate some of these guys.

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They don't send their best and brightest to do the dirty work.

TexasAggie_02 said:

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aezmvp said:

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It never ceases to amaze how easy it is to interrogate some of these guys.

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They don't send their best and brightest to do the dirty work.

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And they have a whole lot of "not the best and brightest" to choose from. The lack of general intelligence, and especially the lack of education, is one of the primary reasons Gaza is a failed "state" which relies on a unifying hatred and scapegoating of Jews to keep the population in line.

DTP02 said:

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TexasAggie_02 said:

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aezmvp said:

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It never ceases to amaze how easy it is to interrogate some of these guys.

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They don't send their best and brightest to do the dirty work.

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And they have a whole lot of "not the best and brightest" to choose from. The lack of general intelligence, and especially the lack of education, is one of the primary reasons Gaza is a failed "state" which relies on a unifying hatred and scapegoating of Jews to keep the population in line.

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agreed

but let's not leave out the fact that the 19 Al Qaeda hijackers were very educated in Western universities

you can't conflate intelligence and education by Hamas members

with religious indoctrination and hatred for the enemy.

there are plenty of well educated Hamas members and their supporters who went to American universities and have no problem with what happened in massacring women and children.

just like there were millions of educated Germans who had no problem with the Holocaust.

The only force that has performed perfectly has been the Navy- racking up more wins in the last two hours!

Gunfire still being heard at Zikim report
Fighting against Gaza-based Hamas terrorists who attempted to infiltrate Israel from the sea appears to be ongoing, Channel 12 news reports.

According to the station, gunfire can be heard echoing in the area and military helicopters are flying overhead.

The IDF says only that forces are continuing to scan the area.

Walla reports that residents of nearby Kibbutz Zikim have been told that the fighting is occurring on the shoreline and not in the kibbutz.

Reports on the number of terrorists killed vary from five to eight.

IAF taking out more Hizbullah terror cells-
last few hours near Elkosh and Netua along the Lebanon border

כלי טיס מאויש מרחוק תקף שתי חוליות מחבלים שביצעו ירי מרגמות וטילי נ"ט לעבר מוצבי צה"ל במרחב נטועה ואלקוש שבגבול לבנון. כמו כן, בוצע ירי ארטילרי וטנקים לעבר מקורות הירי >> pic.twitter.com/7Z13BDwY5I

— דובר צה״ל דניאל הגרי - Daniel Hagari (@IDFSpokesperson) October 24, 2023

Israel willing to delay Gaza invasion to discuss large release of hostages held by Hamas. My story on @axios https://t.co/wwZoplb8ji

— Barak Ravid (@BarakRavid) October 24, 2023

Any idea of the location of CAM2?
Can't wrap my head around it. You see the hospital on the right (lit up) and in the distance, i think is Ashkelon.

I think you are correct

if that Cam 2 is looking north past blacked out Gaza towards the Israeli port city of Ashkelon.

Israel kills three Hamas commanders, one who took part in massacre
By JERUSALEM POST STAFF
OCTOBER 24, 2023 17:27

Israeli security forces targeted and killed three senior Hamas military officers on Tuesday, the IDF announced.

The Israeli military, directed by the Shin Bet, killed the deputy commanders of Hamas's Shati and Sheikh Radwan battalions. Khalil Mehjez and Khalil Tetri were both killed in targeted airstrikes.

Additionally, the IDF also killed Abed al Rahman, the deputy commander of Hamas's Nuseirat battalion, who was involved in the mass infiltration on October 7 and the massacre of civilians in kibbutz Be'eri.

bonfarr said:

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TexasAggie_02 said:

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aezmvp said:

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It never ceases to amaze how easy it is to interrogate some of these guys.

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They don't send their best and brightest to do the dirty work.

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It isn't that they are stupid. They have no shame in what they did so they have no need to hide it. To them they are doing Allah's work and they are proud of what they did.

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Squad of female IDF combat troops eliminated nearly 100 Hamas terrorists

Lt.-Col. Or Ben Yehuda, Caracal Battalion, praises her troops' bravery against Hamas, silencing doubts about female combat soldiers with their training, heroism, and life-saving actions.

By WALLA!OCTOBER 23, 2023 14:50Updated: OCTOBER 23, 2023 20:06


https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/defense-news/article-769134

YouBet said:

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Of note, I just got off a client call where former Joint Chiefs of Staff Joseph Dunford and former Head of MI6 Alex Younger both are of the opinion that Israel is not going to invade Gaza as they say they are. Global PR, long-term relations, and the catastrophic outcome to their own military will keep them from doing it.

What you will see is continued precision attacks against Hamas leadership while they figure out a diplomatic solution to sideline Hamas.

I agree with them at this point.

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Catastrophic outcome to their own military?
Boy, I'd certainly like to have heard an exposition on that argument.

YouBet said:

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Of note, I just got off a client call where former Joint Chiefs of Staff Joseph Dunford and former Head of MI6 Alex Younger both are of the opinion that Israel is not going to invade Gaza as they say they are. Global PR, long-term relations, and the catastrophic outcome to their own military will keep them from doing it.

What you will see is continued precision attacks against Hamas leadership while they figure out a diplomatic solution to sideline Hamas.

I agree with them at this point.

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They have to make sure they don't piss off America to insure their annual billions.

$240 Worth of Pudding said:

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YouBet said:

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Of note, I just got off a client call where former Joint Chiefs of Staff Joseph Dunford and former Head of MI6 Alex Younger both are of the opinion that Israel is not going to invade Gaza as they say they are. Global PR, long-term relations, and the catastrophic outcome to their own military will keep them from doing it.

What you will see is continued precision attacks against Hamas leadership while they figure out a diplomatic solution to sideline Hamas.

I agree with them at this point.

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Catastrophic outcome to their own military?
Boy, I'd certainly like to have heard an exposition on that argument.

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I'm guessing a long war of attrition in which Israel is not willing to sacrifice as much as Hamas.