Weve had about a 5% total return since Biden took office and we are coming up in 3 years.

21.7% since the day after the election… and the market is down big in the last 45 days because JPow refuses to give up until we have a recession.

Manhattan said:

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21.7% since the day after the election… and the market is down big in the last 45 days because JPow refuses to give up until we have a recession.

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Biden wasnt in control the day after the election, was he? He did not begin his anti business, Marxist totalitarian reign until the next year.

In the days after the election, they announced the vax. Lol.

Try again.

Manhattan said:

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21.7% since the day after the election… and the market is down big in the last 45 days because JPow refuses to give up until we have a recession.

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You obviously don't understand this thing called inflation, do you?

Easier compared to what? Now?

Also, lol at the 0.7% fraction.

Can't put lipstick on the pig named Biden

Nanomachines son said:

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zoneag said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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techno-ag said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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hph6203 said:

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techno-ag said:

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What did we ever do back when the interest rates were near 18%?

Oh yeah, I remember. We saved up for 20% down, didn't buy more than we could afford, and refinanced when rates went down.

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You have to save 2.5x as long to purchase a home that costs 3x as much monthly. Interest rates are a portion of the equation, but they matter WAY less than price relative to income. Even at 0% interest rates it's more expensive/difficult to buy a home than it was in the early 80's.

1980
Median House Price: 47,200
Median Household Income: 21,000
20% Down: 9,440
Interest Rate: 17%
Tax: 864/yr (72.00/mo)
HOI: 250/yr (20.80/mo)
P&I: 539.00
Total Payment: 631.80
Down payment percent gross income: 45%
Total payment percent of gross income: 16%

2023
Median House Price: 416,000
Median Household Income: 81,500
20% Down: 83,200
Interest Rate: 7.5%
Tax: 7615 (634.59/mo)
Insurance: 2204 (183.67/mo)
P&I: 2327.00
Total Payment: 3145.26
Down payment percent gross income: 102%
Total payment percent of gross income: 46.3%

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Thanks. Some people's inability to admit that economics were more favorable to them in the past is strange. And that's not to absolve the idiocy towards our current economic policies that this generation is perpetuating. I'm sure the millenials will be gaslighting the 30 year olds the same way in 30 years.

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I think it's more modern expectations that are out of whack. A young grad expects $100,000 job on day one. Wants a 5 bedroom $750,000 house with 0 down at 3%.

Examples only of course, but you get the point.

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You could buy a house back then in a relatively safe area for cheap. Thanks to mass immigration and enormously different demographics, the cheap areas are all crime ridden hellholes. If you want your kids to not get shot at or beaten up daily in school, you're going to have to pay out the ass nowadays.

The situation is nothing at all like it uses to be. People are bankrupting themselves to get away from bad areas of town. They have no choice if they have a family.

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Glad someone finally said this. In the midwestern city where I live, former working class neighborhoods with modest starter homes are now crime ridden dumps thanks to runaway third world immigration. The schools are terrible and unsafe. Even in this low cost of living city you need to make well above the median income just to have a chance to buy a home in a decent area with good schools. I'm GenX and am well positioned, but I feel for the young families today because these problems are only going to get worse.

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It is incredible to me that people aren't recognizing that 50 years ago, these neighborhoods were all white because the US was literally 80 to 85% white. They were safe because the demographics guaranteed it.

Diversity has obliterated this and now virtually any cheap area is a ghetto in any city. Yeah you could find a starter home in a ****hole neighborhood but your house will get broken into daily and your cars stolen as well as your kids beat up or shot at constantly. Wow what a deal you're getting!

Your choices now are either pay rent or get fleeced in a good neighborhood. There are no other options because starter homes are all in unsafe areas.

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Well your other options are to move to a rural small town, which have had their industries gutted so good luck finding work. Not to mention the massive drug problems courtesy of the Sackler family and their ilk, and the wide open border. It's almost like it's all part of a larger plan…..

I tell my young adult son to save and get ready. Rates will go down and I believe prices will go down as people run out of cash and are forced to sell. There will be a crash at some point. Those with cash can take advantage.

Maybe the world should have had exceptional American leadership during the pandemic.

What did Biden make worse with the vax?

Biden's infrastructure bills are the reason we have economic growth and not stagflation…

Manhattan said:

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What did Biden make worse with the vax?

Biden's infrastructure bills are the reason we have economic growth and not stagflation…

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See my prior post.

carl spacklers hat said:

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tk111 said:

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It's really terrible. I know a number of young couples just a few years removed from college that have been very successful and are still absolutely crushed at their prospects of getting a home due to the overwhelming double-whammy that is prices and interest rates.

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4 years removed from college I made my first home purchase (was a townhouse, but you get the drift). I paid 20% down and signed a note for 8.5%. This was in 1997, and I was thrilled.
What has changed between 1997 and 2023, besides increases in construction costs, insurance costs, taxes and massive interest rate manipulation by the Fed?

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It isn't interest rates OR inflation. It is simply home values going up. Of course, that depends on when you purchased your home.

I did a yearly dollar value comparison with my home, built in the '80s. I compared my home which I bought in the late 2000s to what it is worth now in terms of 2023 dollars vs. late 2000s dollars. There was a significant PREMIUM over what I paid. Then, I did the same thing over the year it was built. I looked up my home once and don't remember the exact figure it sold for new, but I know the ballpark. There was still a premium, but it was slight. Hence, the recent (last decade) price rise, not to mention me buying at the bottom of the market, has contributed to values that are extremely high in the short term and high in the long term irrespective of other financial or market factors.

The only conclusion is a different demand curve is in place. I would guess that most homes are also in this category. If you bought in 2022 and are underwater, it may be bad for you, but good for the guy who bought your house in 2013.

YouBet said:

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Manhattan said:

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What did Biden make worse with the vax?

Biden's infrastructure bills are the reason we have economic growth and not stagflation…

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See my prior post.

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If Biden sh**s his pants, this Upper West Sider would talk about how it smells like roses.

Hoyt Ag said:

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This is truth. I am one of those trying to sell a home but it wont be leaving the market anytime soon. I am probably going to be renting it out against my better judgement. Someone with 10% down on my house is still looking at a $4000/mo note.

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Mortgages will be higher than rents, I'd imagine sales slow.

fka ftc said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Thanks. Some people's inability to admit that economics were more favorable to them in the past is strange. And that's not to absolve the idiocy towards our current economic policies that this generation is perpetuating. I'm sure the millenials will be gaslighting the 30 year olds the same way in 30 years.

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How about there be some honesty in what that average home bought you in 1980 vs 2023 and then there can be a discussion. Until then, it's a bunch of hooey as most millenials wouldn't let their cats live in what the average home was in 1980.

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Solid point. Average homes now are so much nicer than in the 1970-1990s. I look at photos of my families' homes I thought were so nice growing up in the 70-80s and they were dumps! Total crap. We had nothing. The average home now is a mansion compared to what we had. Expectations have really changed. Comparing apples to apples is tough to do when the apples don't match.

tk111 said:

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It's really terrible. I know a number of young couples just a few years removed from college that have been very successful and are still absolutely crushed at their prospects of getting a home due to the overwhelming double-whammy that is prices and interest rates.

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Sell them yours at a discount

bmks270 said:

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Hoyt Ag said:

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This is truth. I am one of those trying to sell a home but it wont be leaving the market anytime soon. I am probably going to be renting it out against my better judgement. Someone with 10% down on my house is still looking at a $4000/mo note.

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Mortgages will be higher than rents, I'd imagine sales slow.

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When there is more demand for rent, the rent goes up, not down

Ted Lasso said:

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Except home prices were much closer to wages back then. Big difference.

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Actually per sq foot, it is the same. People bought much smaller houses.

Like with most things the answer lies a bit in the middle.

I graduated in '04, made a decent but not extravagant salary out of college and by '06 was making offers on nice houses in nice neighborhoods in the big city... 1500-1700sqft. All in the $125-$200k range.

Those same houses are 4x-5x the price now, and salaries are not 4x-5x.

Now yes, the solution is move further out of town or a less desirable neighborhood. There's always ways to make better investments and make ends meet. But the point is those that graduated 20 years ago trying to say it's basically the same as it is for the graduates now are kidding themselves.

I disagree. Rent is crazy expensive right now in my area. I have 3 applications in to rent my house for 3200/mo. 5 bed 4200sqft. Finding an apartment is a pipe dream around here, and when you do it is $2000mo for a 1/1. House rentals are up due to low inventory overall. I thin kaverage income in our town is like $42K/yr, so a pretty low income area.

Hoyt Ag said:

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I disagree. Rent is crazy expensive right now in my area. I have 3 applications in to rent my house for 3200/mo. 5 bed 4200sqft. Finding an apartment is a pipe dream around here, and when you do it is $2000mo for a 1/1. House rentals are up due to low inventory overall. I thin kaverage income in our town is like $42K/yr, so a pretty low income area.

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[Don't quote posts that need to be removed. -Staff]

itsyourboypookie said:

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tk111 said:

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It's really terrible. I know a number of young couples just a few years removed from college that have been very successful and are still absolutely crushed at their prospects of getting a home due to the overwhelming double-whammy that is prices and interest rates.

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Sell them yours at a discount

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That's funny but is a valid retort.

People mad they cannot currently afford a brand new home, with a big yard, nice schools, hardwood floors, granite countertops, all the home automation, located 10 minutes from the office with A+++ schools.

Certainly they cannot afford it with the job they got with their History of Racism in the Fashion Industry degree from Phoenix U whilst also making the Tesla payments, payoff the Restoration Hardware bill for their new furniture, and order in sushi every night.

The horror these kids face these days. We should all sell our houses immediately to the lowest bidder so that these kids have a chance.

Because current "macro" factors are against them.

BoydCrowder13 said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Down payment percent gross income: 45%
Total payment percent of gross income: 16%
Average house size: 1800 sqft
2023
Down payment percent gross income: 102%
Total payment percent of gross income: 46.3%
Average house size: 2500 sqft

So the house size has increased 40%, while the down payment compared to income is more than twice the amount. Economics were favorable in the 80's.

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Now do the amenities.

Heck the roof itself is 2.5x what it was back then for the same square foot home because of the massive pitch difference.

Put formica in. Put linoleum in instead of tile. Put those cheap ass windows in we had back then. Put in a non tiled walk in shower/bath instead of both. No fence versus a privacy wood fence. Etc

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Amenities have improved but that is just home building practices across the board. There isn't a market for small houses with lesser amenities.Most have been bulldozed for McMansions at this point. When anything that style and in a lower price range goes on the market, cash buyers come in for 20% over asking to make it a rental. Which is understandable. I'd do the same thing. But there really aren't many options left for 1,500 sq foot houses without updates.

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"I can't afford homes in this market! You boomers had it good back then!"

Also you..

Quote:

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There isn't a market for small houses with lesser amenities.

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The problem is you, not the market.

Proposition Joe said:

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I like how the guy with roughly 4000 posts a year, all anything but concise, is explaining how people don't work as hard as he does.

We both graduated around the same time. We had it easier.

That's not to say "no one can achieve success" now, but acting like the route to owning a home is similar for graduates the last 3-4 years as it was when we graduated is simply not based in reality.

Though there are trade-offs -- the opportunities to becoming extremely wealthy in a short amount of time are in much more abundance now than they were in 2000. But that contributes to the gap...

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You like that? If you are so obsessed with me you should know I am mostly retired after putting in my hard work.

There are plenty of affordable homes out there, its an entitlement culture where people think they deserve XYZ.

There have been times in the last 20 years when finding a good paying job was difficult. And housing affordability issues have existed in many locales for years.

IN 2004 I interviewed for a job in Santa Barbara. Salary was 2x what I was making in Houston. I would had to trade the "decent" apartment I was living in for a shared efficiency "apartment" and likely have to share a car in order to eat ramen noodles.

Sorry son, you just goaltending for the entitlement generation(s).

Proposition Joe said:

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I like how the guy with roughly 4000 posts a year, all anything but concise, is explaining how people don't work as hard as he does.

We both graduated around the same time. We had it easier.

That's not to say "no one can achieve success" now, but acting like the route to owning a home is similar for graduates the last 3-4 years as it was when we graduated is simply not based in reality.

Though there are trade-offs -- the opportunities to becoming extremely wealthy in a short amount of time are in much more abundance now than they were in 2000. But that contributes to the gap...

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I would think it is pretty self-evident that it is much more difficult to buy a home today with 7% mortgage rates and home prices at all time highs..

than it was a decade ago with 2.7% mortgages and lower house prices.

I don't see how that is logically arguable.

techno-ag said:

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What did we ever do back when the interest rates were near 18%?

Oh yeah, I remember. We saved up for 20% down, didn't buy more than we could afford, and refinanced when rates went down.

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Houses were 80k

18% interest on a balance of $64k is can still be paid down in 3 years with discipline and the wage at the time,


18% or 8% on $640k is a big deal different

LMCane said:

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Proposition Joe said:

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I like how the guy with roughly 4000 posts a year, all anything but concise, is explaining how people don't work as hard as he does.

We both graduated around the same time. We had it easier.

That's not to say "no one can achieve success" now, but acting like the route to owning a home is similar for graduates the last 3-4 years as it was when we graduated is simply not based in reality.

Though there are trade-offs -- the opportunities to becoming extremely wealthy in a short amount of time are in much more abundance now than they were in 2000. But that contributes to the gap...

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I would think it is pretty self-evident that it is much more difficult to buy a home today with 7% mortgage rates and home prices at all time highs..

than it was a decade ago with 2.7% mortgages and lower house prices.

I don't see how that is logically arguable.

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It is more difficult to buy the same house for the same price at the same rate as a decade ago. That should be and I believe is obvious to everyone.

The issue is people have to adapt and change their expectations. That is actually what logical people do. Seems that logic escapes most folks.