samurai_science said:

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APHIS AG said:

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zoneag said:

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So we'll see $150k F150 King Ranch Editions soon? Available financing for 240 months

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The King Ranch F-150's are now over $110K. If the UAW demands are met, no one will be able to afford even the cheapest of vehicles.

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They will just make them in Mexico

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And then the government will hit them will high tariffs and taxes.

evan_aggie said:

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Honestly I'm jealous of union bargaining power. Basically you can manipulate the free market and contort wages. In some cases the job demands and skill is highly specialized (pilots), but in many cases it's not.


This is how some teachers in Illinois retire getting $100,000 a year after 25-30 years working. I'm at 20 years and there is no way my 401K is set to return 6-figures guaranteed if I retire at 58-60.

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You do understand we live in a competitive market. You really can not contort wages to a point where you lose value. Mixing the automobile and education in the same discussion does not fit.

stallion6 said:

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evan_aggie said:

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Honestly I'm jealous of union bargaining power. Basically you can manipulate the free market and contort wages. In some cases the job demands and skill is highly specialized (pilots), but in many cases it's not.


This is how some teachers in Illinois retire getting $100,000 a year after 25-30 years working. I'm at 20 years and there is no way my 401K is set to return 6-figures guaranteed if I retire at 58-60.

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You do understand we live in a competitive market. You really can not contort wages to a point where you lose value. Mixing the automobile and education in the same discussion does not fit.

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Ok. Will Agree to disagree.

I'm starting to toy with the idea of a new truck. Been thinking about a Taco this time instead of a full size. This could push me that way.

Plus, I can still get a manual shift.

APHIS AG said:

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zoneag said:

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So we'll see $150k F150 King Ranch Editions soon? Available financing for 240 months

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The King Ranch F-150's are now over $110K. If the UAW demands are met, no one will be able to afford even the cheapest of vehicles.

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$69,750 MSRP for a 4x4 3.5 Ecoboost King Ranch. And F150s are stating to go below msrp again.

gotta dealer link on that?

https://www.autonationfordkaty.com/ford-f-150-katy-tx.htm

Take your pick, one shows under 70k before any discounts, you seem like a Coyote person anyway.

Buck Turgidson said:

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Labor unions are short sighted. The dumbasses always choose short-term greed over long term viability. Get a pay increase today, then lose your job to automation or plant relocation tomorrow. Idiots ran off almost all of the good paying skilled blue collar jobs in the town where I was born. Not much to do there now but make a long commute into St. Louis or cook meth.

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Buck, where were you born? You are describing areas of southern Illinois that I am familiar with.

pacecar02 said:

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At current truck prices, people ought to consider going custom and getting an older car/truck redone and customized

60k can go a hell of long way in a reasonably appointed custom car/truck

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Sounds a lot like Cuba. Democrats would love that kind of control and shared misery.

Edit - And I agree if prices keep going up, this makes sense and will become more and more common.

Charpie said:

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AgResearch said:

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Charpie said:

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The big 3 aren't going to budge. They have been preparing for this for months.

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Unless they're prepared to break the UAW and bring in non-union workers, then they will fold like a newspaper.

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Two of the big three are my clients. They are not folding. They have been preparing for this since the beginning of the year. They let the UAW go on strike in 2018 and they will let them do it again.

Did you see this piece from the UAW? GM offered up some sort of offering to which the UAW scoffed at

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Goes without saying...

samurai_science said:

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evan_aggie said:

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stallion6 said:

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evan_aggie said:

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Honestly I'm jealous of union bargaining power. Basically you can manipulate the free market and contort wages. In some cases the job demands and skill is highly specialized (pilots), but in many cases it's not.


This is how some teachers in Illinois retire getting $100,000 a year after 25-30 years working. I'm at 20 years and there is no way my 401K is set to return 6-figures guaranteed if I retire at 58-60.

---

You do understand we live in a competitive market. You really can not contort wages to a point where you lose value. Mixing the automobile and education in the same discussion does not fit.

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Ok. Will Agree to disagree.

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Teachers are not bargaining with anyone but themselves and politicians they get elected. Public employees should not have unions, no one represents the taxpayers.

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I have no real issue with public unions as long as they cannot strike.

BigRobSA said:

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1) let them strike

2) when they strike, hire temporary replacements...paying them the current rate/benefits or less.

3) let them get the plant going and when there's little to no difference in production volume or quality, announce they're permanent replacements. While laughing at the union.

4) unions have outlived their usefulness and need.

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I worked on a big strike case at a Colorado steel mill as a young lawyer. This was the exact playbook. Despite striking over purely economic issues (which allows for hiring permanent replacements), the USW of course claimed ULPs and extended the dispute for five years. When all was said and done, the union settled, getting the displaced members about $1k and folding on getting their jobs back. Lots of bankruptcy's, lost homes, etc. from members who bought the union's BS and voted to strike.

The union didn't really care at all about the Colorado workers -- they were gunning for neutrality in a campaign to unionize the parent company. Colorado workers were just pawns.

Manhattan said:

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https://www.autonationfordkaty.com/ford-f-150-katy-tx.htm

Take your pick, one shows under 70k before any discounts, you seem like a Coyote person anyway.

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Why the personal attack it was a serious question?

just checked your link , MSRP still posted well over 70k (only checked the first page), they have started dealer discounting and i see 1 @67,571(its the v8 and its 2WD), everything else is well over 70k

I saw on CNBC that the AVERAGE pay of those striking UAW workers is nearly $140,000 a year

for working in a car factory!!!

and demanding a 16% pay raise!!

WTF

LMCane said:

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I saw on CNBC that the AVERAGE pay of those striking UAW workers is nearly $140,000 a year

for working in a car factory!!!

and demanding a 16% pay raise!!

WTF

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I'm curious which it is...

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/18/what-uaw-negotiations-could-cost-gm-ford-and-stellantis.html

Quote:

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The demands include a 46% wage increase, restoration of traditional pensions, cost-of-living increases, reducing the workweek to 32 hours from 40 and increasing retiree benefits.

If the UAW gets those demands, without any changes to other benefits, the all-in hourly labor cost for the automakers would more than double from at least $64 per hour to more than $150 per hour, according to media reports.


Under the current pay structure, UAW members start at about $18 an hour and have a "grow-in" period of four years to reach a top wage of more than $30 an hour.

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One reason, the unions have our manufacturers by the balls is that the government keeps bailing the firms out. If they would have been allowed to go under long ago, then these bad contracts would have been invalidated.

Manhattan said:

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More like you can generate your own electricity at home and not rely on others for transportation.

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My home generator runs great on gasoline or propane, is that what you meant?

Natural fuels like O&G have been the biggest blessing to mankind ever.

evan_aggie said:

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LMCane said:

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I saw on CNBC that the AVERAGE pay of those striking UAW workers is nearly $140,000 a year

for working in a car factory!!!

and demanding a 16% pay raise!!

WTF

---

I'm curious which it is...

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/18/what-uaw-negotiations-could-cost-gm-ford-and-stellantis.html

Quote:

---

The demands include a 46% wage increase, restoration of traditional pensions, cost-of-living increases, reducing the workweek to 32 hours from 40 and increasing retiree benefits.

If the UAW gets those demands, without any changes to other benefits, the all-in hourly labor cost for the automakers would more than double from at least $64 per hour to more than $150 per hour, according to media reports.


Under the current pay structure, UAW members start at about $18 an hour and have a "grow-in" period of four years to reach a top wage of more than $30 an hour.

---

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$64/hr is $133,212/yr total cost to the employer based on 40 hours for 52 weeks.

Quote:

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They are demanding a 40% pay increase. Thats a lot for uneducated and unskilled labor.

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LOL
Show us you know nothing about putting a vehicle together without telling us you don't know anything about putting a vehicle together.


UAW said "No one bats an eye when a CEO gets a 40% pay increase. Automakers are experiencing record profits."

Then I log onto Texags.com and read that automakers are losing money because of EV's.

Which is it? Record profits or losing money?

APHIS AG said:

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samurai_science said:

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APHIS AG said:

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zoneag said:

---

So we'll see $150k F150 King Ranch Editions soon? Available financing for 240 months

---

The King Ranch F-150's are now over $110K. If the UAW demands are met, no one will be able to afford even the cheapest of vehicles.

---

They will just make them in Mexico

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And then the government will hit them will high tariffs and taxes.

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Yep
Trump said 10% when he gets back in

Logos Stick said:

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They are demanding a 40% pay increase. Thats a lot for uneducated and unskilled labor.

"A Wells Fargo analyst estimated that if all UAW demands passed, the average hourly labor costs for the Detroit companies would soar from about $66 per hour to $136 per hour"


Compare to Tesla:

"Elon Musk's company is estimated to shoulder about $45 in hourly labor costs, including benefits,..."


In addition:

"They are also demanding 40 hours of pay for a 32-hour workweek,..."



The Tension Driving the UAW Strike Threat https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-tension-driving-the-uaw-strike-threat-75e04119

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does this mean that the average employee in the UAW is making a combined income of $136 per hour (with some of that being health care and vacation costs)

how many americans make that much an hour?

richardag said:

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Logos Stick said:

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tremble said:

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It works until it doesn't. See the move of many of manufacturers to non-union states

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Yes, but the NLRB has now changed the way unions can be formed, almost guaranteeing that the plants in those states will be unionized.

The manufacturers will have to offshore, which means loss of jobs.

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Step one will be U.S. manufacturing will move offshore.
Step two will be the Democratic Party leadership penalizing US Manufacturers through the IRS and import regulations.
Step three will be the Democratic Party leadership imposing tariffs on all imports except EVs.
Step four the Democratic Party leadership cashing in all their laundered quid pro quo/bribery and corrupt schemes.

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The problem is, is that the democrats still make a ton of bribery money off unions of workers from traditional auto OEMs. Many of the EV OEMs aren't unionized and won't pay the politicians as well.

There are a lot of tentacles to consider here. However, you're correct in that it all comes down to what benefits their greed and power grab the most.

LMCane said:

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Logos Stick said:

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They are demanding a 40% pay increase. Thats a lot for uneducated and unskilled labor.

"A Wells Fargo analyst estimated that if all UAW demands passed, the average hourly labor costs for the Detroit companies would soar from about $66 per hour to $136 per hour"


Compare to Tesla:

"Elon Musk's company is estimated to shoulder about $45 in hourly labor costs, including benefits,..."


In addition:

"They are also demanding 40 hours of pay for a 32-hour workweek,..."



The Tension Driving the UAW Strike Threat https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-tension-driving-the-uaw-strike-threat-75e04119

---

does this mean that the average employee in the UAW is making a combined income of $136 per hour (with some of that being health care and vacation costs)

how many americans make that much an hour?

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No idea, but it's a huge amount either way.

Very few Americans make that kind of cash, especially lower IQ humans turning a few bolts on an assembly line.

This is engineer, doctor, executive manager type money.

91AggieLawyer said:

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The problem is, is that the democrats still make a ton of bribery money off unions of workers from traditional auto OEMs. Many of the EV OEMs aren't unionized and won't pay the politicians as well.

There are a lot of tentacles to consider here. However, you're correct in that it all comes down to what benefits their greed and power grab the most.

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Thanks for the information.

evan_aggie said:

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Honestly I'm jealous of union bargaining power. Basically you can manipulate the free market and contort wages. In some cases the job demands and skill is highly specialized (pilots), but in many cases it's not.

This is how some teachers in Illinois retire getting $100,000 a year after 25-30 years working. I'm at 20 years and there is no way my 401K is set to return 6-figures guaranteed if I retire at 58-60.

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Corporations also manipulate the free market, and they've been doing it much more than unions. It's time unions start fighting back.

LMCane said:

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Logos Stick said:

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They are demanding a 40% pay increase. Thats a lot for uneducated and unskilled labor.

"A Wells Fargo analyst estimated that if all UAW demands passed, the average hourly labor costs for the Detroit companies would soar from about $66 per hour to $136 per hour"


Compare to Tesla:

"Elon Musk's company is estimated to shoulder about $45 in hourly labor costs, including benefits,..."


In addition:

"They are also demanding 40 hours of pay for a 32-hour workweek,..."



The Tension Driving the UAW Strike Threat https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-tension-driving-the-uaw-strike-threat-75e04119

---

does this mean that the average employee in the UAW is making a combined income of $136 per hour (with some of that being health care and vacation costs)

how many americans make that much an hour?

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Probably refers to the employees "loaded rate" which includes base pay, overtime pay, benefits, health plan, contributions, payroll taxes, 401K, etc.). Basically the total compensation package per employee, which is well beyond just wages.

DarkBrandon01 said:

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evan_aggie said:

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Honestly I'm jealous of union bargaining power. Basically you can manipulate the free market and contort wages. In some cases the job demands and skill is highly specialized (pilots), but in many cases it's not.

This is how some teachers in Illinois retire getting $100,000 a year after 25-30 years working. I'm at 20 years and there is no way my 401K is set to return 6-figures guaranteed if I retire at 58-60.

---

Corporations also manipulate the free market, and they've been doing it much more than unions. It's time unions start fighting back.

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Yeah! Lets get those jobs outsourced!

DarkBrandon01 said:

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evan_aggie said:

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Honestly I'm jealous of union bargaining power. Basically you can manipulate the free market and contort wages. In some cases the job demands and skill is highly specialized (pilots), but in many cases it's not.

This is how some teachers in Illinois retire getting $100,000 a year after 25-30 years working. I'm at 20 years and there is no way my 401K is set to return 6-figures guaranteed if I retire at 58-60.

---

Corporations also manipulate the free market, and they've been doing it much more than unions. It's time unions start fighting back.

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LOL. Ever used the kiosks at McDs?

That's what stuff like this results in. Oh, and offshoring to Mexico.

And please tell us, Karl, how is Ford manipulating the market to the detriment of workers here?

DarkBrandon01 said:

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evan_aggie said:

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Honestly I'm jealous of union bargaining power. Basically you can manipulate the free market and contort wages. In some cases the job demands and skill is highly specialized (pilots), but in many cases it's not.

This is how some teachers in Illinois retire getting $100,000 a year after 25-30 years working. I'm at 20 years and there is no way my 401K is set to return 6-figures guaranteed if I retire at 58-60.

---

Corporations also manipulate the free market, and they've been doing it much more than unions. It's time unions start fighting back.

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True. Major corporations manipulated the market, working conditions and bullied politicians. In defense, laws addressing monopolies and price fixing were instituted. This seemed to help for a few decades.

Seems the major corporations with lawyers have breached these laws and have bribed politicians through campaign donations and laundered money through relatives.

Some corporations went the route of vertical integration in order to manipulate markets. The food industry is an example:How vertical integration is impacting food and agribusiness

edit spelling

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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They are demanding a 40% pay increase. Thats a lot for uneducated and unskilled labor.

---

LOL
Show us you know nothing about putting a vehicle together without telling us you don't know anything about putting a vehicle together.


UAW said "No one bats an eye when a CEO gets a 40% pay increase. Automakers are experiencing record profits."

Then I log onto Texags.com and read that automakers are losing money because of EV's.

Which is it? Record profits or losing money?

---

The EV business units are losing money while the overall operation is still making money largely because trucks and SUVs are cash cows. The auto makers need the latter to remain that way in order to fund their EV losers until the point that most vehicles available for purchase are EVs and the consumer has no choice but to buy one.

This is, of course, being driven by federal government mandates interfering with the natural order of things via CAFE standards.

LMCane said:

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I saw on CNBC that the AVERAGE pay of those striking UAW workers is nearly $140,000 a year

for working in a car factory!!!

and demanding a 16% pay raise!!

WTF

---

I worked in Michigan for about 18 months back in the 90s and the UAW workers are the most overpaid workforce I have ever seen. Most of them spend their whole lives doing jobs that high school kids could do well with a few days or a couple weeks of training. They get guaranteed raises for no added benefit to the company, they get more holidays, better benefits, and much higher pay than any other job with similar skill/knowledge requirements. And yet they are ALWAYS unhappy and are convinced they are constantly getting screwed by management.

It is an absolutely poisonous environment 100% created by union leadership, where the people working in the plant are encouraged to absolutely despise their managers and to be intransigent and unwilling to be flexible to get the job done or improve production in any way without written concessions granted by management.

I was friends with an engineer for Ford who worked on their Lincoln Town Car/Ford LTD products coming out of the Wixom plant. They had some issue occurring during the manufacture of the cars that left a small amount of water in the water pumps of the cars as they came off the line. It was easily fixable by letting the cars idle for about 10 minutes after they rolled off the line to cook out the water. If it was left there and the temp on the lot dropped below freezing, the water pump would crack. What the engineers asked the plant to do was leave each car running when it was parked after coming off the line, while the driver went back to get the next car. When they parked the next car next to it, they would shut off the first one. It was at most a one year problem that would be fixed during the prep for the next model year's production. The UAW refused to do it and demanded 5 new permanent full time positions be created to perform the requested task. Instead, Ford had to send their engineers over to the plant on a rotating schedule whenever it got below freezing to walk around starting the cars to keep them from freezing. And the union guys made sure the keys were always missing from a few, only to be found somewhere that required a long walk from the lot.

Lol, I worked on an assembly line once running a mig welder. Took me 30 minutes to learn the job. I bet I could even teach you in a couple of days.

They are unskilled and uneducated beyond a HS diploma which is worthless now. They are not worth $282,000 per year.

Lololololololol

Logos Stick said:

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Lol, I worked on an assembly line once running a mig welder. Took me 30 minutes to learn the job. I bet I could even teach you in a couple of days.

They are unskilled and uneducated beyond a HS diploma which is worthless now. They are not worth $282,000 per year.

Lololololololol

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I find that as a general rule, highly skilled and educated craftsmen do not need unions. In fact, unions bring those people down because they have to work for the lowest common denominator. Everyone is equal.