agracer said:

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Heard an interview with a Detroit Free Press writer this morning, don't know if these have been covered in this thread but summary of what I recall;

Union wants 40% Pay Increase + 32HR Work week (so pay increase and cut hours). So if a guy is making $50k/yr now with a 40hr week, he would be paid $70k/yr with a 32hr week.
Union is asking for safety and benefits concessions (didn't get specifics)
Big 3 did have big profits in 2022 and more in 2023. Average profit sharing bonus for 2022 was $15k per worker.

Ford/Stellantis/GM burdened labor average is $67/hr
Honda/Nissan/Toyota burdened labor average is $55/hr
Telsa burdened labor average is $45/hr


Ford/Stellantis/GM Unions are asking for $100+/hr

Thought I heard him say Honda/Nissan/Toyota are not unionized ??? Or maybe Telsa?

That labor rate is < 10% of the cost of the auto you see at the dealership. That being said, the scaling from $67-$100 is not going to help the big 3 in any way shape or form.

If I can find the interview online I'll post it.

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Bolded part is correct. Those guys are NOT unionized and won't be impacted by this.

UAW has its tentacles in lots of areas. They are already striking in the insurance sector that they are in. It's gonna be a ****show

aTmAg said:

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The government should have let the auto companies go under. They need to be punished by the market for agreeing to stupid union demands. Let more intelligent management purchase the plants and take over.

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"but we need their votes" /dems

txags92 said:

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I was friends with an engineer for Ford who worked on their Lincoln Town Car/Ford LTD products coming out of the Wixom plant. They had some issue occurring during the manufacture of the cars that left a small amount of water in the water pumps of the cars as they came off the line. It was easily fixable by letting the cars idle for about 10 minutes after they rolled off the line to cook out the water. If it was left there and the temp on the lot dropped below freezing, the water pump would crack. What the engineers asked the plant to do was leave each car running when it was parked after coming off the line, while the driver went back to get the next car. When they parked the next car next to it, they would shut off the first one. It was at most a one year problem that would be fixed during the prep for the next model year's production. The UAW refused to do it and demanded 5 new permanent full time positions be created to perform the requested task. Instead, Ford had to send their engineers over to the plant on a rotating schedule whenever it got below freezing to walk around starting the cars to keep them from freezing. And the union guys made sure the keys were always missing from a few, only to be found somewhere that required a long walk from the lot.

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I've talked to people who have worked in other unionized production facilities and they can't even move the phone on there desk without putting in a work order and waiting for some union employee to come pick up the phone and move it from the right side to the left side of their desk. Forget moving a PC or a monitor!

Charpie said:

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aTmAg said:

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The government should have let the auto companies go under. They need to be punished by the market for agreeing to stupid union demands. Let more intelligent management purchase the plants and take over.

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"but we need their votes" /dems

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This is why democracy (and republican) form of governments are flawed. They always degrade in this way.

The UAW has backed off of their 40% wage increase demand. It's now in the mid 30s.

Charpie said:

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aTmAg said:

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The government should have let the auto companies go under. They need to be punished by the market for agreeing to stupid union demands. Let more intelligent management purchase the plants and take over.

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"but we need their votes" /dems

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Votes are the smaller portion of the equation......Realistically government steps in because of the economic realities of what would happen if they did go under.

There are literally hundreds of 1000s of jobs tied to the auto industry. Having Ford and GM go BK would be the equivalent of a bomb destroying a major city.


Auto supplier contracts always have a clause that states if your company shuts down a production line by failing to deliver your product/service, there is a $10,000 per MINUTE charge back to you. We are talking every company not just physical parts to assemble the car/truck, we are talking down to the guy who provides a snowplow service to keep the docks open for shipping and deliveries.

Auto manufacturing is huge business......

txags92 said:

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I would love to see one or more of the big 3 call their bluff and list every single job held by a union worker up for hire at 90% of their current pay. There are a ton of people out there working crappy jobs for <$30/hr that would jump at the chance to earn $45/hr with great benefits.

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That's the right thing to do, but it would be illegal on about 20 different levels. They have to dance the dance and play it correctly -- let the UAW go on an economic strike THEN hired permanent replacements.

HtownAg92 said:

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txags92 said:

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I would love to see one or more of the big 3 call their bluff and list every single job held by a union worker up for hire at 90% of their current pay. There are a ton of people out there working crappy jobs for <$30/hr that would jump at the chance to earn $45/hr with great benefits.

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That's the right thing to do, but it would be illegal on about 20 different levels. They have to dance the dance and play it correctly -- let the UAW go on an economic strike THEN hired permanent replacements.

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Not a lot of "replacements" are willing to cross the picket line.

Not only b/c their friends are on the picket line, but because their wives, kids, parents, etc. would become persona-non-Grata in the community. They'd likely be shunned by their local priest for crossing the picket line, stares and comments in the grocery store, kid would be bullied at school and the teacher who's husband was on strike would not do a damned thing about it.

This is not like the Reagan replacement of the traffic controllers. They're spread out all over and really less than a hundred in any large city. Not enough pull in the community to cause any issues for a picket line crosser (also, IIRC Reagan used NG or Military to replace them?).

HtownAg92 said:

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txags92 said:

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I would love to see one or more of the big 3 call their bluff and list every single job held by a union worker up for hire at 90% of their current pay. There are a ton of people out there working crappy jobs for <$30/hr that would jump at the chance to earn $45/hr with great benefits.

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That's the right thing to do, but it would be illegal on about 20 different levels. They have to dance the dance and play it correctly -- let the UAW go on an economic strike THEN hired permanent replacements.

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You can still negotiate in good faith while making appropriate preparations for the event that the negotiations fail. Didn't say they had to interview or start filling positions, just post them to get the resumes rolling in.

agracer said:

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HtownAg92 said:

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txags92 said:

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I would love to see one or more of the big 3 call their bluff and list every single job held by a union worker up for hire at 90% of their current pay. There are a ton of people out there working crappy jobs for <$30/hr that would jump at the chance to earn $45/hr with great benefits.

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That's the right thing to do, but it would be illegal on about 20 different levels. They have to dance the dance and play it correctly -- let the UAW go on an economic strike THEN hired permanent replacements.

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Not a lot of "replacements" are willing to cross the picket line.

Not only b/c their friends are on the picket line, but because their wives, kids, parents, etc. would become persona-non-Grata in the community. They'd likely be shunned by their local priest for crossing the picket line, stares and comments in the grocery store, kid would be bullied at school and the teacher who's husband was on strike would not do a damned thing about it.

This is not like the Reagan replacement of the traffic controllers. They're spread out all over and really less than a hundred in any large city. Not enough pull in the community to cause any issues for a picket line crosser (also, IIRC Reagan used NG or Military to replace them?).

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Mostly true, but there are also a ton of people just barely getting by or slowly going underwater that would gladly jump at the chance for a much higher paying job if they felt like the demands their friends were making were unreasonable and likely to cause the company to close the local plant and move the jobs to Mexico instead. If I am living paycheck to paycheck barely making ends meet and hear my buddy (who has all the best toys and is always telling stories about slacking on the job) whining about how his pay that is twice what I am making isn't enough, I would think quite a few would consider it. There are also plenty of new democrats moving in via the southern border who are already crapped on by any community they move into that will gladly get crapped on in the upper midwest for $67/hr.

Zergling Rush said:

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Charpie said:

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aTmAg said:

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The government should have let the auto companies go under. They need to be punished by the market for agreeing to stupid union demands. Let more intelligent management purchase the plants and take over.

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"but we need their votes" /dems

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Votes are the smaller portion of the equation......Realistically government steps in because of the economic realities of what would happen if they did go under.

There are literally hundreds of 1000s of jobs tied to the auto industry. Having Ford and GM go BK would be the equivalent of a bomb destroying a major city.


Auto supplier contracts always have a clause that states if your company shuts down a production line by failing to deliver your product/service, there is a $10,000 per MINUTE charge back to you. We are talking every company not just physical parts to assemble the car/truck, we are talking down to the guy who provides a snowplow service to keep the docks open for shipping and deliveries.

Auto manufacturing is huge business......

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This is untrue. Their factories are worth a CRAP-ton. Outside buyers would buy those and produce more cars with them. And they would need employees to run them. And who better than employees who used to operate them? So all that would change is that management would roll over, and the crappy ass workers fired. Which is exactly what should happen.

I heard on the radio this morning there are over 5000 employees at GM Arlington building Suv models and their average salary is $90,000. They want 40% on top of that? Yukons are already ridiculously priced.

aTmAg said:

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Zergling Rush said:

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Charpie said:

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aTmAg said:

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The government should have let the auto companies go under. They need to be punished by the market for agreeing to stupid union demands. Let more intelligent management purchase the plants and take over.

---

"but we need their votes" /dems

---

Votes are the smaller portion of the equation......Realistically government steps in because of the economic realities of what would happen if they did go under.

There are literally hundreds of 1000s of jobs tied to the auto industry. Having Ford and GM go BK would be the equivalent of a bomb destroying a major city.


Auto supplier contracts always have a clause that states if your company shuts down a production line by failing to deliver your product/service, there is a $10,000 per MINUTE charge back to you. We are talking every company not just physical parts to assemble the car/truck, we are talking down to the guy who provides a snowplow service to keep the docks open for shipping and deliveries.

Auto manufacturing is huge business......

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This is untrue. Their factories are worth a CRAP-ton. Outside buyers would buy those and produce more cars with them. And they would need employees to run them. And who better than employees who used to operate them? So all that would change is that management would roll over, and the crappy ass workers fired. Which is exactly what should happen.

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Over time yes, investors would step in.

But the short term, you are talking about losing jobs up and down the stack not only at GM and Ford but also including Tier 1 Tier 2, Tier 3 suppliers with engineers, admin, marketing, shipping/receiving, all the way down to the people at the dealership level.

You are so focused on "Crappy workers" you are missing the big picture.

Quote:

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This is not like the Reagan replacement of the traffic controllers. They're spread out all over and really less than a hundred in any large city. Not enough pull in the community to cause any issues for a picket line crosser (also, IIRC Reagan used NG or Military to replace them?).

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Apples and oranges. PATCO's strike was illegal. Reagan didn't have to worry about the NLRB - he fired all of the striking controllers.

If a reasonable contract cannot be agreed upon, let the UAW members go hungry or let the auto makers go bankrupt with no government bailouts. Either way, I don't care.

sharpdressedman said:

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If a reasonable contract cannot be agreed upon, let the UAW members go hungry or let the auto makers go bankrupt with no government bailouts. Either way, I don't care.

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Brandon's NLRB will make sure that the Big 3 are forced to accept a contract that is unreasonable and favors the UAW heavily.

txags92 said:

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I would love to see one or more of the big 3 call their bluff and list every single job held by a union worker up for hire at 90% of their current pay. There are a ton of people out there working crappy jobs for <$30/hr that would jump at the chance to earn $45/hr with great benefits.

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why no one should buy an american car made by Ford

Honda and BMW moved their factories to at will states like South Carolina where the unions have no power.

as opposed to Ford being in bed with the UAW

txags92 said:

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sharpdressedman said:

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If a reasonable contract cannot be agreed upon, let the UAW members go hungry or let the auto makers go bankrupt with no government bailouts. Either way, I don't care.

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Brandon's NLRB will make sure that the Big 3 are forced to accept a contract that is unreasonable and favors the UAW heavily.

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There's a long way and long time before any ULP gets through the Board and review process. May have a new administration by then.

They'll come to an agreement after both sides have publicly grandstanded, and Biden will take credit for it.

agracer said:

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txags92 said:

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I was friends with an engineer for Ford who worked on their Lincoln Town Car/Ford LTD products coming out of the Wixom plant. They had some issue occurring during the manufacture of the cars that left a small amount of water in the water pumps of the cars as they came off the line. It was easily fixable by letting the cars idle for about 10 minutes after they rolled off the line to cook out the water. If it was left there and the temp on the lot dropped below freezing, the water pump would crack. What the engineers asked the plant to do was leave each car running when it was parked after coming off the line, while the driver went back to get the next car. When they parked the next car next to it, they would shut off the first one. It was at most a one year problem that would be fixed during the prep for the next model year's production. The UAW refused to do it and demanded 5 new permanent full time positions be created to perform the requested task. Instead, Ford had to send their engineers over to the plant on a rotating schedule whenever it got below freezing to walk around starting the cars to keep them from freezing. And the union guys made sure the keys were always missing from a few, only to be found somewhere that required a long walk from the lot.

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I've talked to people who have worked in other unionized production facilities and they can't even move the phone on there desk without putting in a work order and waiting for some union employee to come pick up the phone and move it from the right side to the left side of their desk. Forget moving a PC or a monitor!

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This happened to me at the Javits Center in New York City

We were at a tradeshow and I had a 10 x 10 pop-up booth and all I had to do was run an extension cord behind my own booth, plug the monitor in, and set it on the table

A union employee saw me doing it and gave me a little bit of crap for doing something I wasn't authorized to do

They then proceeded to make my life a living hell for the next 3 1/2 days throughout the tradeshow and especially during booth teardown on the last day

All over plugging in a ****ing cord

Similar thing happened to a family member at a convention in Philly in the 1990s. All the stuff was in rolling containers, and the union thugs said only they were allowed to move it from the door to the display space.

I've got a good buddy who has lived in Texas for over a decade now who was born and raised in the northeast and his dad, before passing, was a career union rep. The stories my buddy has told me are W-I-L-D. Absolutely bonkers ****. I can't believe we still put up with these idiots in 2023.

Strike happens at 11:59 PM if no deal reached.

I honestly hope the worst for the union.

Logos Stick said:

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Strike happens at 11:59 PM if no deal reached.

I honestly hope the worst for the union.

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I really hope they ride it all the way into the ground and declare bankruptcy to ditch all the UAW pensions. Won't happen, but I really despise unions. They are a leech on otherwise profitable businesses that exist to siphon money from employees who don't usually end up with that much more than their non-union counterparts when you factor in the union dues automatically removed from their salaries. The money siphoned off goes to the worst possible people...union leaders and dem politicians.

Just read a pretty interesting take. The auto industry is willing to give the unions big pay raises and even other benefits because the ev auto workers are not part of the union. So, the manufactures know they can give the uaw a great deal because they also know they aren't going to be able to produce ice vehicles all that much longer.

Interesting.

Here's the article. It's from a leftist pub

https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newsletters/tap/2023-09-13-beware-wrong-auto-deal/

i just realized (from the article above), the UAW wanted 40% raise over 4 years because that's what the C suite execs got.
Clearly being a worked on the assembly line, is exactly the same as the exec running a billion dollar company with 10s of thousands of workers.

If the Big3 gives the UAW the EV part of the deal, it's the end for the Big3. Can you imagine building a already ridiculously overpriced EVs, with Union workers, in a blue state. Ha ha, good luck with that.

Hope they break the unions.

deddog said:

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i just realized (from the article above), the UAW wanted 40% raise over 4 years because that's what the C suite execs got.
Clearly being a worked on the assembly line, is exactly the same as the exec running a billion dollar company with 10s of thousands of workers.

If the Big3 gives the UAW the EV part of the deal, it's the end for the Big3. Can you imagine building a already ridiculously overpriced EVs, with Union workers, in a blue state. Ha ha, good luck with that.

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Honestly, what has Ford done in the last 5 years that would warrant that kind of raise for the CEO? I get that the UAW demands are ridiculous, but people across this country are getting tired of where executive compensation has gone. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.