It is and should be a fireable offense.

But if your company isn't able to actually detect it happening then that is a management failure.

My wife works remotely and probably works at least 55 hours a week. Plus she travels for work on the weekend to be places on Monday. Honestly, she would probably be better off going into the office.

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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Did you call up your employer every minute you weren't productive at the office, or did you try to look busy to avoid reprimand?

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Again, this is not about productivity.
This is about telling your employer that you are working, but actually on vacation NOT WORKING.
This is why it is called a "hush trip".

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Not working is not working. Doesn't matter if it's in an office or on a beach. Did you tell your employer every time you weren't actively working? Or did you lie and try to look busy?

Quote:

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Not working is not working.

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So ends the lesson.


I am sure you are a kick butt worker and just like to work when you want and your employer is all good with it.
That is not the majority of workers out there.

Kvetch said:

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TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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Did you call up your employer every minute you weren't productive at the office, or did you try to look busy to avoid reprimand?

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Again, this is not about productivity.
This is about telling your employer that you are working, but actually on vacation NOT WORKING.
This is why it is called a "hush trip".

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Not working is not working. Doesn't matter if it's in an office or on a beach. Did you tell your employer every time you weren't actively working? Or did you lie and try to look busy?

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sounds to me like you are following this practice and it hit a nerve ; otherwise you wouldn't be blatantly redirecting to productivity. The article wasn't about working from a remote moving location, it was taking time off when it wasn't approved and attempting to make it appear you were working. Not the same thing as productivity

What was the term back in the day?
Guilty dog barks first?

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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Not working is not working.

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So ends the lesson.

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Nobody ever disagreed about that. A lesson implies something was taught.

Kvetch said:

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Nobody ever disagreed about that. A lesson implies something was taught.

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You keep redirecting to productivity, shying away from the lying and working part.

TxTarpon said:

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Kvetch said:

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Nobody ever disagreed about that. A lesson implies something was taught.

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You keep redirecting to productivity, shying away from the lying and working part.

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I'm not taking sides here between you two but work = productivity.

You can't be both productive and not working.

This thread reminds me - I've got some really good weekday specials for my beach house on Bolivar if anybody needs a hush trip.

I know there is several qualifiers that have not been established here for everyone and everyone is not coming from the exact same start point.

This thread is a disaster because of it.

As someone else said, looks like companies should just contract out all work and provide a 1099 at the end of the year. That cuts cost and should improve profits, all of the wfh, on their own schedule work a couple of hours to get the job down, live where they want, vacation when they want, etc. folks would be happy. Sounds like a win/win.

AgDad121619 said:

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Kvetch said:

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TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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Did you call up your employer every minute you weren't productive at the office, or did you try to look busy to avoid reprimand?

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Again, this is not about productivity.
This is about telling your employer that you are working, but actually on vacation NOT WORKING.
This is why it is called a "hush trip".

---

Not working is not working. Doesn't matter if it's in an office or on a beach. Did you tell your employer every time you weren't actively working? Or did you lie and try to look busy?

---

sounds to me like you are following this practice and it hit a nerve ; otherwise you wouldn't be blatantly redirecting to productivity. The article wasn't about working from a remote moving location, it was taking time off when it wasn't approved and attempting to make it appear you were working. Not the same thing as productivity

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No problems with my job at all. Just pointing out that there's no difference between not working in an office and not working on a beach. At the end of the day, productivity is exactly what matters. If I can get my job done in 4 hours and there's nothing left for me to do, there is no reason for me to be in the office for 8 hours. It's a waste of my time.

Let me know when there's an article about unproductive hours in the office. Because the implication is that there's a difference in kind between traveling and not working and being in the office and not working. There's not.

Don't lie to your employer. If you get caught, you deserve to be fired. Also, employers should not be creating environments where employees feel the need to lie. I would never have a problem saying "I'll be working from Florida for the next few days." As long as I get my work done, my boss doesn't give a **** how many hours I'm at the desk. I'm an adult, and I have proven that I can be trusted to manage my projects.

There's a reason that nobody wants to work for managers that act like they're your babysitter. You hired me to do a job. If I do that job well, enjoy the profit to the company and let me enjoy my life. It's a win-win.

Amazed at some of the mental gymnastics going on. I try to live by simple rules, such as be honest and don't steal. If my employees are able to work half a day, surfing the internet at work, taking lots of vacation, etc., that's a manager problem for not keeping them busy enough.

But ask yourself why someone would "lie" about their whereabouts. You only lie because you know it's wrong. And taking vacation without approved PTO is stealing from the Company. That has nothing to do with productivity. That's integrity.

Something everyone should have learned in kindergarten.

I've been working remote since March 2020. That includes working from locations other than my apartment. Nowhere does my employee contract or consulting contract state where I have to work. There might be VPN access, time zone issues, or ITAR issues that limit my location, but otherwise who cares?

If you're getting your work done and attending required meetings, location shouldn't matter.

I understand employee theft and that's on the individual and their own moral conscience. But for an employer to act like this is a surprise indicates how bad they are doing at managing work load, tasking, and employee responsibility and accountability.

And work theft happens in the office just as much, if not more so. When I started my engineering career, I was appalled by the number of employees that spend the majority of their time in the office socializing, trading stocks, managing rental properties, or doing some other side hustle. And it lasted for years!

You don't need a complex IT network or VPN to track your employees. Just observing response time to DM's, emails, text messages and personal phone calls should tell you plenty. There are many pieces of information that can't be obtained from a phone, and seeing a trend where an employee can't find or access that info points to a major issue.

Whether it's lying about timecards, PTO or just incompetence, if an employee isn't meeting the standard that others are, then address it with a conversation. If productivity doesn't improve, then fire them. It's that simple.

The Banned said:

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bonfarr said:

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My wife has worked remote for the last three years and from what I can see in a typical day she puts about 4 hours of real work in and that includes all of the Zoom calls. She logs in about 8:30 and puts together emails and any docs she might need to share on one of the calls she has that day. Then they have a Zoom call for about an hour. After that she has lunch, folds laundry, watches TV, plays with the dogs, etc until the afternoon Zoom call. Then she works feverishly for about an hour from 4:30-5:30 to finish any work for the day. I imagine that is probably similar to most remote workers and why it is such a touchy subject when anyone brings up ending remote work.

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There are a few companies (very few) that have moved to performance based employment. Get the projects/service done we've asked you to get done in the timeline we've asked you to get it done, and I don't give a crap how many hours it takes.

There needs to be a shift away from $X per year gets X number of hours per week. That simply encourages employees to sandbag how much they can get done. Pay $X for X amount of work encourages employees to finish faster. If you find they have additional bandwidth, then pay them more to get more work done.

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We all know that any switch to this will absolutely screw employees badly. I would never ever trust any company that had this and I am a high performer.

This type of system only works for sales. For everyone else it encourages cutting corners and poor quality work while paying employees less. It's a genuinely terrible idea for engineering.

I take hush trips all the time but not on the clock like this article is about. I am single with no kids and all the marrieds and boomers get annoyed that I go skiing or to Mexico on weekends or go to Europe a few times a year on vacation. So to everyone at work now, as far as they know I just hang out at home on weekends or family farm for vacation, otherwise all the jealous/passive aggressive comments start. Ive found it best to just not talk about what I am up too on my time off or wfh days since we have remote work on fridays and mondays, which allows me to work a lot from places that are not my house, but I am working.. I have too much crap to do to mail it in on remote days. Thats where i have found long weekends out west (AZ/Cali/Utah) are best.. The time zone to your advantage, you're up early anyways because of time zone, but you can wrap up work day on Friday out there earlier and enjoy the weekend.

bonfarr said:

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My wife has worked remote for the last three years and from what I can see in a typical day she puts about 4 hours of real work in and that includes all of the Zoom calls. She logs in about 8:30 and puts together emails and any docs she might need to share on one of the calls she has that day. Then they have a Zoom call for about an hour. After that she has lunch, folds laundry, watches TV, plays with the dogs, etc until the afternoon Zoom call. Then she works feverishly for about an hour from 4:30-5:30 to finish any work for the day. I imagine that is probably similar to most remote workers and why it is such a touchy subject when anyone brings up ending remote work.

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So, she does exactly as much work as office people do? We had people filling their day with useless bull**** or coming to each other's offices to discuss things they already know the answer to, or spend 2 hours walking the production facility but not affecting anything.

I travel while working, but i still actually work my full time. Going to the west coast is good because I can work 5 am to 2pm then have the afternoon to do stuff.

But they're not hush trips, everyone knows.

Esteban du Plantier said:

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I travel while working, but i still actually work my full time. Going to the west coast is good because I can work 5 am to 2pm then have the afternoon to do stuff.

But they're not hush trips, everyone knows.

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Just recently did this. Wife's family took a big weekend trip. We packed the car up wednesday, cut out early to skip traffic thursday, drove until middle of the night thursday night with the family asleep. Worked remotely friday while the kids played with extended family.

Was I doing the most important work under the strictest of deadlines on friday? No. But I got a days worth of progress in. Wouldn't have been able to take the trip at all if I didn't have flex hours. You'd have to seriously bump up my compensation to go back in 5 days a week mandatory.

As a side note, pre-covid there was so much BS about not being able to do menial laptop tasks from home. Coworker friend of mine basically switched careers because we had a terrible boss who wouldn't let her work from home when she had sick kids and he forced her to take vacation.

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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I am retired.

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Least shocking thing here, boomer yelling at clouds. Go get a hobby

Bird Poo said:

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As long as you get your shlt done and are present for calls and meetings, I don't give a damn where you work from.

In fact, I assume my employees are taking advantage of the perk. It's definitely a benefit that keeps young professionals around and allows for more official vacation time.

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This is the mindset of my employer. I routinely work from "home" at a place on the coast. I get my work done and then I'm fishing. I can fish early from about 6 to 8, work from about 8 to mid afternoon and then fish some more and then work a little in the evening. I get my **** done and never miss deadlines. They make money off me and that's all they care about.

BenFiasco14 said:

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Is there anyone here who is pro "butt in the seat 5 days a week 8-6" that can look at me with a straight face and say it does NOT have anything to do with the whole attitude of, "well, when I started MY career, I never got to work from home, so neither should anyone else"?

I think this is what a lot of it boils down to. We get it, you don't think it's fair you had to commute and be an office slave for decades, but the white collar working world has changed.

How can the clock watchers not see the benefit of saved time not spent in the car, wasting time in the hallway small talking with colleagues, or flirting with the receptionist?

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Good. Maybe these moron companies will wake up from their Covid haze

cryption said:

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I manage an IT team, and my team can literally do their job anywhere. We're a meritocracy. As long as the work is getting done, who cares? The people who slack of course don't get free reign - but the ones who get their jobs done I literally could care less where they do it from.

My people are paid for their skillset, and completion of projects / tasks. If it takes 30 hours or 60 hours the work has to get done. I'm not paying them for hours. That's how a meritocracy works.

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Esteban du Plantier said:

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bonfarr said:

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My wife has worked remote for the last three years and from what I can see in a typical day she puts about 4 hours of real work in and that includes all of the Zoom calls. She logs in about 8:30 and puts together emails and any docs she might need to share on one of the calls she has that day. Then they have a Zoom call for about an hour. After that she has lunch, folds laundry, watches TV, plays with the dogs, etc until the afternoon Zoom call. Then she works feverishly for about an hour from 4:30-5:30 to finish any work for the day. I imagine that is probably similar to most remote workers and why it is such a touchy subject when anyone brings up ending remote work.

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So, she does exactly as much work as office people do? We had people filling their day with useless bull**** or coming to each other's offices to discuss things they already know the answer to, or spend 2 hours walking the production facility but not affecting anything.

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No judgment on my part, I am envious of her. I work in multi-unit Operations and drive 40 minutes to my closest stop then drive all day from location to location on my feet putting out fires and checking in on Managers then drive home another 40-60 minutes and get home around 6:30. The wife's deal is great for the family and she is always available to pick them up from school if they have an issue or to drop them off wherever they need to go.

The only times I get a break from that is every second Monday we have conference calls from 10 am to 5:30 so they call it an Admin day and I can take those from home.

Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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Well they aren't.

Street Fighter said:

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Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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Well they aren't.

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Where did it say they weren't meeting their work productivity?

terradactylexpress said:

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TxTarpon said:

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I am retired.

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Least shocking thing here, boomer yelling at clouds. Go get a hobby

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Go get some integrity!

Teslag said:

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Street Fighter said:

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Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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Well they aren't.

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Where did it say they weren't meeting their work productivity?

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Again, this is not about productivity.
It is about lying/fraud/deception.
This is about employees that make it look like they are working when they are on a "hush trip" vacation and not working.

Aglaw97 said:

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Amazed at some of the mental gymnastics going on. I try to live by simple rules, such as be honest and don't steal. If my employees are able to work half a day, surfing the internet at work, taking lots of vacation, etc., that's a manager problem for not keeping them busy enough.

But ask yourself why someone would "lie" about their whereabouts. You only lie because you know it's wrong. And taking vacation without approved PTO is stealing from the Company. That has nothing to do with productivity. That's integrity.

Something everyone should have learned in kindergarten.

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Right on!

TxTarpon said:

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terradactylexpress said:

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TxTarpon said:

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I am retired.

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Least shocking thing here, boomer yelling at clouds. Go get a hobby

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Go get some integrity!

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He is right. Find a hobby

What?
Watching millennials get offended is not a hobby?

bonfarr said:

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Esteban du Plantier said:

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bonfarr said:

---

My wife has worked remote for the last three years and from what I can see in a typical day she puts about 4 hours of real work in and that includes all of the Zoom calls. She logs in about 8:30 and puts together emails and any docs she might need to share on one of the calls she has that day. Then they have a Zoom call for about an hour. After that she has lunch, folds laundry, watches TV, plays with the dogs, etc until the afternoon Zoom call. Then she works feverishly for about an hour from 4:30-5:30 to finish any work for the day. I imagine that is probably similar to most remote workers and why it is such a touchy subject when anyone brings up ending remote work.

---

So, she does exactly as much work as office people do? We had people filling their day with useless bull**** or coming to each other's offices to discuss things they already know the answer to, or spend 2 hours walking the production facility but not affecting anything.

---

No judgment on my part, I am envious of her. I work in multi-unit Operations and drive 40 minutes to my closest stop then drive all day from location to location on my feet putting out fires and checking in on Managers then drive home another 40-60 minutes and get home around 6:30. The wife's deal is great for the family and she is always available to pick them up from school if they have an issue or to drop them off wherever they need to go.

The only times I get a break from that is every second Monday we have conference calls from 10 am to 5:30 so they call it an Admin day and I can take those from home.

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This sounds like the life of a Home Depot district manager or RVP.