I have done this WITH permission. But still did my job.

Basically I ask if I can take a working vacation. And I have always been told yes.

I did most of the work on and completed a project on a beach last summer.

Thing is -- you don't conceal what you are doing. Be honest. Ask your boss first. And actually do the work.

Logos Stick said:

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4stringAg said:

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No doubt this is occurring. I know at least 4 people at my company that out and out moved to different states during the Covid work from home stuff and never told their boss until way after the fact when they started bringing us back to the office. I was pretty amazed they weren't fired or reprimanded/demoted but they pretty much got away with it. Its not that they moved and were still doing their jobs but more the deceptive/dishonest way it was perpetrated.

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I'm not following you. So they were told to WFH and they moved to a different state and did their work from there. That new state was their home then.

Not sure why they should be fired?!

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Company policy here is you have to inform your manager if you move because they have to clear you with higher ups and HR for "remote work". This was in place before any Covid stuff happened and it didn't change when they went to WFH. It never really was an issue prior to the mass WFH because most people would have to request remote work from their manager if they moved away from the home office city anyway as it would be obvious when they stopped coming in. Maybe a few of them truly weren't being deceptive and didn't know the policy but I know a couple of these people and they definitely were doing it purposefully to "ask forgiveness later".

Sorry, should have clarified that in my earlier response.

TxTarpon said:

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They are not measuring workload properly.

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It is smooth amazing how many of today's professional manager class do not have a clue what their employees do. There is no way for them to know their workload. I think the last 15 or 20 years of my work life this was the case. I had bosses that had 0 experience in the function they were "managing".

I do not know if the Army still does this, but way back (VN era) when I was in the military, those that in any way managed soldiers, at least up to platoon leader, knew every soldier's job. The thought was you could not be an effective leader without knowing.

So without the requisite knowledge, today's managers cannot measure workload. Hence, many employees are "getting over" on them.

The Banned said:

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bonfarr said:

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My wife has worked remote for the last three years and from what I can see in a typical day she puts about 4 hours of real work in and that includes all of the Zoom calls. She logs in about 8:30 and puts together emails and any docs she might need to share on one of the calls she has that day. Then they have a Zoom call for about an hour. After that she has lunch, folds laundry, watches TV, plays with the dogs, etc until the afternoon Zoom call. Then she works feverishly for about an hour from 4:30-5:30 to finish any work for the day. I imagine that is probably similar to most remote workers and why it is such a touchy subject when anyone brings up ending remote work.

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There are a few companies (very few) that have moved to performance based employment. Get the projects/service done we've asked you to get done in the timeline we've asked you to get it done, and I don't give a crap how many hours it takes.

There needs to be a shift away from $X per year gets X number of hours per week. That simply encourages employees to sandbag how much they can get done. Pay $X for X amount of work encourages employees to finish faster. If you find they have additional bandwidth, then pay them more to get more work done.

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This is called subcontracting. Just go to your boss and say you want to be a 1099 contractor and work it out with your company.

LOL at having to get "permission" to use PTO.

LOL even more at getting a PTO request denied.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Where they live and their personal lives are none of your GD business

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I'm pretty sure that where you live is very much your employer's business.

eiggA2002 said:

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LOL at having to get "permission" to use PTO.

LOL even more at getting a PTO request denied.

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LOL when employer decides to not send you your paycheck, cuts off your phone and ends your benefits.

TxTarpon said:

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It is not about the WFH practice.
It is about the deception that the worker creates the perception they are working, when they are on vacation.

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The two points blend and I addressed vacations in my post giving the WFH as context. Essentially when I went in the office every day I felt like I was "on the clock" vs not. Since I WFH it's not as defined. That blends into vacations. It's all about balance and discipline and the greater point is productivity. If you are productive and your job allows it, who cares? If you abuse it you can abuse it in the office almost as easily.

Folks I work with couldn't care less where I am or how many hours I work so long as everything is getting done and the productivity is there. If I came in the office every day but wasn't productive I would be fired. If someone screws around with secret vacations and doesn't get their work done and management doesn't notice that's on both the employee and manager.

Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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Managers will now realize they don't need 3 people doing a 1 man job. Kick 2 down the road and pay the 1 better. Win win.

TxTarpon said:

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Old May Banker said:

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Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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As a general rule, the man signing the front of their checks cares.

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Damn right!

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The man signing the checks cares if the work gets done. Where you do it shouldn't matter.

People who complain about the poor work ethic of WFH employees are just anachronistic Luddites. If you tally up the unproductive hours in an office, they likely mirror the unproductive hours at home. Only difference is I don't have to waste my time at the office. I can be productive at other things at home.

You're being paid to do a job. Not waste time. As long as you do your job and bring in revenue, you should be able to enjoy your life. Obviously it depends on the person and the job, but it sounds like you're just jealous of people that manage to create a better work life balance than you. If they're unproductive, they'll be fired. If they do a good job, quit acting like you own them.

Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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There are tax implications and could cause issues for a company if an employee is caught working from an area has personal income laws. I'm not allowed to work remote from California for this very reason.

Also, no one is getting away with virtual backgrounds or fooling anyone. They are easy to spot on a Teams call.

At noted in the article "hush vacations" are done without permission.

You are correct sir.
COVID really exacerbated this.

Brutal Puffin said:

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TxTarpon said:

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They are not measuring workload properly.

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It is smooth amazing how many of today's professional manager class do not have a clue what their employees do. There is no way for them to know their workload. I think the last 15 or 20 years of my work life this was the case. I had bosses that had 0 experience in the function they were "managing".

I do not know if the Army still does this, but way back (VN era) when I was in the military, those that in any way managed soldiers, at least up to platoon leader, knew every soldier's job. The thought was you could not be an effective leader without knowing.

So without the requisite knowledge, today's managers cannot measure workload. Hence, many employees are "getting over" on them.

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I am slowly being forced into a PM role on an engineering team. I have been told to calm down and know who to go for problems. That's my job. It's not my job to know everything. That's impossible at this level. There are at least 4 different engineering disciplines on my team being actively used. I know mine. I don't know the others to the level of working professional. And I was stressing myself out bad trying to "learn it all" and keep up.

That's just not how it works in some teams in some fields. It can't. Instead my task is to manage the people and know how to use them. My personal knowledge is not my tool. My team is. Was honestly a hard transition for me. Still is to be honest. But it's also true and I wished I had picked that up from the get go. It's actually the same as the military and I wish I had connected that much sooner instead of carrying on this preconception of the white collar world that I had. Once I became a team leader and eventually squad leader, the weapon of choice was my Marines, not my rifle . Protect yourself at all times of course but if you are engaging in a firefight at a individual level with a leadership role, you are in the wrong. Something that is actually taught and stressed constantly thereafter for the USMC.

fka ftc said:

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eiggA2002 said:

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LOL at having to get "permission" to use PTO.

LOL even more at getting a PTO request denied.

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LOL when employer decides to not send you your paycheck, cuts off your phone and ends your benefits.

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Thank you for that big belly laugh!
Well played!

While I think this is pathetic, I also hate virtually all big corporations, so I am a little torn.

Satellite of Love said:

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Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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There are tax implications and could cause issues for a company if an employee is caught working from an area has personal income laws. I'm not allowed to work remote from California for this very reason.

Also, no one is getting away with virtual backgrounds or fooling anyone. They are easy to spot on a Teams call.

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Ok? Giving a false address to your employer and traveling are two completely different issues.

Quote:

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The man signing the checks cares if the work gets done. Where you do it shouldn't matter.

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You are very confused.

Quote:

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People who complain about the poor work ethic of WFH employees are just anachronistic Luddites.

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Again, that is not what this thread is about.
It is about fraud and deception.

Didnt they make a movie out of all this?

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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The man signing the checks cares if the work gets done. Where you do it shouldn't matter.

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You are very confused.

Quote:

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People who complain about the poor work ethic of WFH employees are just anachronistic Luddites.

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Again, that is not what this thread is about.
It is about fraud and deception.

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If I am WFH and I choose to go work at a local brewery or coffee shop instead of my home office, am I committing fraud? What if I live in Dallas but go visit family in Houston? Is that fraud?

I'm still doing my job. Unless your travels restrict your ability to do your job, your physical location does not matter. Doing your job matters.

You're on TexAgs right now during work hours. Is that not fraud? You should be slaving right now, regardless of whether you have a full workload!

Quote:

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If I am WFH and I choose to go work at a local brewery or coffee shop instead of my home office, am I committing fraud?

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You are if you are acting like you are doing your work, but you are not working and are on vacation, then that is fraud.

Quote:

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What if I live in Dallas but go visit family in Houston? Is that fraud?

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If you are supposed to working but are driving five hours, then yes.
Honesty over deception is the best way to roll.

Quote:

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You're on TexAgs right now during work hours. Is that not fraud? You should be slaving right now, regardless of whether you have a full workload!

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I am retired.

I have the ultimate flexibility. I typically work from home. With notice to the bosses I've left for a month at a time where I've taken a couple weeks of vacation and work the other weeks. I more or less work an average of 40 hours/week (i.e. sometimes more, sometimes less) and I have no doubt that if I stole significant time I would be called out, as any competent employer would.

So I'll do some consulting for any business leader here looking for a technical way to 100% prevent this. My rates are reasonable.

Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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do you consider an hour of work a day doing their job?

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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If I am WFH and I choose to go work at a local brewery or coffee shop instead of my home office, am I committing fraud?

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You are if you are acting like you are doing your work, but on vacation.

Quote:

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What if I live in Dallas but go visit family in Houston? Is that fraud?

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If you are supposed to working but are driving five hours, I would say so.

Quote:

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You're on TexAgs right now during work hours. Is that not fraud? You should be slaving right now, regardless of whether you have a full workload!

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I am retired.

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The implication in all of my statements is you still fulfill your duties and get your work done.

Got it. Just yelling at clouds because things don't work like they used to in the good ol' days. Since you have a lot of free time, please go back through your career and calculate all of the unproductive hours you spent in the office. Then, you can repay your company so as to avoid fraud.

Kvetch said:

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Satellite of Love said:

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Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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There are tax implications and could cause issues for a company if an employee is caught working from an area has personal income laws. I'm not allowed to work remote from California for this very reason.

Also, no one is getting away with virtual backgrounds or fooling anyone. They are easy to spot on a Teams call.

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Ok? Giving a false address to your employer and traveling are two completely different issues.

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I have a problem with neither if you work for a corporation that enforced vaccine mandates and pushed woke BS. Steal from them, stick it to em here and there, do whatever you have to do. They are evil, and openly advocate for evil.

AgDad121619 said:

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Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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do you consider an hour of work a day doing their job?

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If that's what their job requires. Same job can take 1 person 1 hour and another person 4 hours. Productivity is what matters, not whether you sit at a desk for 480 minutes a day before you punch your time card.

If you want to control wages on an hourly basis, don't offer your employees salary.

The company I work for does the following. With all of this in place, there's no reason for people to take undocumented vacations:

We have "recharge weeks". For an entire week, we aren't to log on at all. No calls, emails, meetings, nothing. The intent is to take a break for a while and come back focused and refreshed.

We have "quiet day" on the first Monday of every month. You log in and work but no meetings can be scheduled and people can't call you. You do your own thing that day and aren't contacted.

We have unlimited vacation time. As long as you have support from teammates, you can take days off as much as you'd like. Just get your work done and make sure someone can answer questions in your absence.

We have half day Fridays during the summer. I log off at noon and don't even consider checking emails.

That being said, I work for a VERY progressive company and they are super concerned about mental health and job satisfaction. I'm as conservative as they come but there's no way in the world I'll ever argue with these standards they've put in place. Corporations are doing all they can to hold on to talent, as nobody wants to work anymore.

TxTarpon said:

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Kvetch said:

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Who cares as long as they do their jobs?

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Perpetuating a fraud is not doing their job.

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Depends on if they are being paid hourly or salary/commission.

I wouldn't do this, but I also don't call it theft of my time when I have to work late to get all work completed.

Quote:

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The implication in all of my statements is you still fulfill your duties and get your work done.

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That is not what is being discussed.
It is deceptive and fraudulent when you tell your employer that you are working, but you are not working and on vacation.

Quote:

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Got it. Just yelling at clouds because things don't work like they used to in the good ol' days. Since you have a lot of free time, please go back through your career and calculate all of the unproductive hours you spent in the office. Then, you can repay your company so as to avoid fraud.

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Aggie Code is indeed dead.
It is deceptive and fraudulent when you tell your employer that you are working, but you are not working and on vacation.

The survey said some Gen Z tells their employers they are working but are not working and are on vacation.

Knocking out some personal tasks at home while still getting your job done is fine. That's the awesome thing about WFH. There is a fine balance though and you should always be available during business hours. If someone calls you and you're at the store then it's a problem IMO.

Being on an unapproved vacation and pretending to work is a firable offense.

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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The implication in all of my statements is you still fulfill your duties and get your work done.

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That is not what is being discussed.
It is deceptive and fraudulent when you tell your employer that you are working, but you are not working and on vacation.

Quote:

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Got it. Just yelling at clouds because things don't work like they used to in the good ol' days. Since you have a lot of free time, please go back through your career and calculate all of the unproductive hours you spent in the office. Then, you can repay your company so as to avoid fraud.

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Aggie Code is indeed dead.
It is deceptive and fraudulent when you tell your employer that you are working, but you are not working and on vacation.

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Did you call up your employer every minute you weren't productive at the office, or did you try to look busy to avoid reprimand? What matters is that you fulfill your duties and that you're available and ready to complete any additional tasks that come up during the day.

I don't personally lie to my employer, but let's not pretend like this is any different from slacking off at the office. By that standard, every single person has committed "fraud." The only difference is that you're jealous that you did it while trapped in an office while others get to do it wherever they want to.

Employers should worry about productivity and billing, not what room you're sitting in. If I'm doing my job and you've hired me WFH, it's none of your business where I'm doing my work. I'm doing what you pay me to do. If I don't, fire me.

Quote:

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Did you call up your employer every minute you weren't productive at the office, or did you try to look busy to avoid reprimand?

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Again, this is not about productivity.
This is about telling your employer that you are working, but actually on vacation NOT WORKING.
This is why it is called a "hush trip".

Logos Stick said:

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4stringAg said:

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No doubt this is occurring. I know at least 4 people at my company that out and out moved to different states during the Covid work from home stuff and never told their boss until way after the fact when they started bringing us back to the office. I was pretty amazed they weren't fired or reprimanded/demoted but they pretty much got away with it. Its not that they moved and were still doing their jobs but more the deceptive/dishonest way it was perpetrated.

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I'm not following you. So they were told to WFH and they moved to a different state and did their work from there. That new state was their home then.

Not sure why they should be fired?!

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There can be labor, insurance and tax implications for business for employees working in states other than what employers report out. This is a huge risk for employers!