Charpie said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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All you people arguing the law and the facts got to remember one thing.

It took the release of a biological weapon to keep Trump from cruising to re-election.

We've now seen all three branches of government weaponized against Trump, plus the media and deep state.

So we day-by-day on this in an unprecedented situation where no legal or technical argument may matter. Any theory is as good as any other theory. Absolutely anything could happen here.

---

You really believe that everyone around the world was in cahoots and released COVID to keep him from him from being re-elected?

---

Maga not saying yes would be the surprise.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

---

All you people arguing the law and the facts got to remember one thing.

It took the release of a biological weapon to keep Trump from cruising to re-election.

We've now seen all three branches of government weaponized against Trump, plus the media and deep state.

So we day-by-day on this in an unprecedented situation where no legal or technical argument may matter. Any theory is as good as any other theory. Absolutely anything could happen here.

---

Wuhan China is under what branch of government? Who was in power when the biological weapon was released? The Trump executive branch was weaponized.... against Trump.

Charpie said:

---

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

---

All you people arguing the law and the facts got to remember one thing.

It took the release of a biological weapon to keep Trump from cruising to re-election.

We've now seen all three branches of government weaponized against Trump, plus the media and deep state.

So we day-by-day on this in an unprecedented situation where no legal or technical argument may matter. Any theory is as good as any other theory. Absolutely anything could happen here.

---

You really believe that everyone around the world was in cahoots and released COVID to keep him from him from being re-elected?

---

Really? Where in his statement did he say that that was the motivation for COVID?

All he said was that COVID kept Trump from being re-elected.

No Spin Ag said:

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Charpie said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

---

All you people arguing the law and the facts got to remember one thing.

It took the release of a biological weapon to keep Trump from cruising to re-election.

We've now seen all three branches of government weaponized against Trump, plus the media and deep state.

So we day-by-day on this in an unprecedented situation where no legal or technical argument may matter. Any theory is as good as any other theory. Absolutely anything could happen here.

---

You really believe that everyone around the world was in cahoots and released COVID to keep him from him from being re-elected?

---

Maga not saying yes would be the surprise.

---

No, just China. But the Dems joined in quickly realizing the potential.

And the horde takes the straw man and runs with it...

Now that's funny!

jrdaustin said:

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Retired FBI Agent said:

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jrdausti said:

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Up until Jan 6th, I think Trump believed that the election was fraudulent and that his presidency would continue. If that's the case, then the WH had 14 days to prepare to vacate. Basically, just enough time to throw everything into boxes and sort it out later.

---

Perhaps part of Trump believed so, but his own lawyers and inner-circle have stated Trump knew otherwise (claims of fraud).

But regardless, Trump indeed then had until May 2021, 106 days later, to "sort it out" before the National Archives first requests he turn over any presidential records he may have kept upon leaving WH.

The National Archives again requests Trump return missing records through Dec 2021, 345 days after leaving office.

And according to the indictment, we know boxes are moved several times between May and Dec 2021 within MAR. So they are sorting things out, let's say.

Trump and team do turnover the 15 boxes to the National Archives in Jan 2022, one year since leaving office and ~256 days since the National Archives' first request.

The Trump presidency ends and not until 385 days have past does the National Archives finally call up DOJ in Feb 2022, over a year later.

aggiehawg said:

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And they asked for additional locks to be placed on the storage locations there, which Trump did. He was cooperating, negotiating with them, even returning 15 boxes.

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Cooperating? That seems like a stretch given the timeline above before anything is handed over. But yes, he returns 15 boxes one year later. And one month after that, in Feb 2022, the National Archives pings DOJ because of what they see in those 15 boxes. But even if you consider that as "cooperation", leading up to the 15 boxes being returned ...

... ta dah! In June 2022, Trump lawyer hands over (at MAR) 38 classified documents to DOJ/FBI five months after handing over the 15 initial boxes (now 500 days since leaving office). And then again in August 2022, ta dah!, during the MAL raid, 102 additional classified documents are found. That is what the charges focus on, the possession yes, but the retaining of possession after being asked over and over and creating opportunities to hand those over ... for 565 days leading up to the raid.

March 30, 2022
FBI opens its investigation

April 12, 2022
Trump team is informed that National Archives, via request of DOJ, will be handing over the 15 boxes to FBI. Trump team asks for "extension", until April 29, 2022.

April 29, 2022
DOJ asks Trump's lawyers for immediate access to the 15 boxes. Trump's lawyers again ask for extension. By now, 465 days have past since Trump left office.

May 10, 2022
National Archives informs Trump's lawyers that it will provide the FBI access to the boxes as soon as 5/12.

May 11, 2022
A grand jury issues a subpoena to Trump and his office requiring that they turn over all classified materials in their possession. 371 days have past since the National Archives first requested all documents and Trump has been out of office for 476 days.

May 23, 2022
Trump's lawyers advise him to comply with the subpoena, but Trump (allegedly) balks, telling them, "I don't want anybody looking through my boxes."

June 2, 2022
A Trump's lawyer returns to Mar-a-Lago to search boxes in the storage room and finds 38 additional classified documents. After the search, Trump (allegedly) asks: "Did you find anything? ... Is it bad? Good?".

June 3, 2022 - 500 days since leaving office
FBI agents and a DOJ lawyer visit Mar-a-Lago to collect the 38 classified documents from Trump's lawyer. Another Trump lawyer, acting as his custodian of records, provides investigators a sworn certification that prosecutors say falsely claimed they had conducted a "diligent search" of boxes moved from the White House and "any and all responsive documents" were turned over.


June 8, 2022
DOJ sends Trump's lawyer a letter asking that the storage room be secured, and that "all of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Mar-a-Lago (along with any other items in that room) be preserved in that room in their current condition until farther notice."

July 2022
The grand jury is shown surveillance video of boxes being moved at Mar-a-Lago.

August 5, 2022
DOJ applies for a warrant to search Mar-a-Lago, citing "probable cause" that additional presidential records and classified documents were being stored there. Warrant approved same day.

August 8, 2022
FBI searches searches Mar-a-Lago, seizing 102 classified documents 75 in the storage room and 27 in Trump's office, including three found in office desks. 460 days have past since the National Archives first requested all documents, 566 days since leaving office.

DOJ says in a subsequent court filing that the results call "into serious question" earlier representations by Trump's legal team that they had conducted a "diligent search" and that no classified documents remained.

---

Well written timeline.

But I must say that knowing some of the additional background behind this case, as well as seeing testimony of people like Steven D'Antuono who had serious reservations about how this whole thing went down, it is apparent to me that DOJ and FBI bypassed multiple alternative avenues to resolve this issue - as they have recently done in similar situations - unnecessarily taking the above series of actions which in hindsight would make J Edgar Hoover envious.

To the extent that the timeline can be construed as damning to Trump, I believe it is an equally indicative indictment of the true motiviations of the upper levels of FBI & DOJ.

---

I copied most of timeline from here as I was trying to piece together things.

I think your assessment is fair.

Thinking aloud here, I'm wondering if those motivated at those higher levels were really hoping that Trump, over the last 500 days, would have slipped up and either via an interview, talk with lawyer, etc. (or the many ways he runs his mouth ) ... and Trump say something akin to the true intent of the Espionage Act re: intent to harm national security or benefit a foreign power.

But they didn't get it .. and the clock ran out. Instead, all they have is the administrative-ish charges, "unauthorized possession" and "willfully retain" (and lying about it, allegedly) which are also included in the Espionage Act but aren't socially understood as "espionage". Note that prosecutors do not need to show that Trump knew it was national defense information, but rather that a reasonable person should have known it was. Hawg raised an interesting question in another thread. When did the Espionage Act enter the picture? I'm guessing it entered the (internal) picture sometime in 2019-20 but not until these documents could they pin anything on Trump.

The Espionage Act does not require a specific intent either to harm the national security of the US or benefit a foreign power. But I'm sure some were salivating at the prospect of hanging Trump for this. Do I think he would or has any such intent? I do not. At most, it would be a classic Trump-ism bravado brag of sorts. But they couldn't even find that. Instead, again, they fall back to an administrative charge with probability no harmful intent other than a big middle finger to the DOJ, Biden Admin, the State.

Good read: The Espionage Act Isn't the Right Statute to Criminalize Trump
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/the-espionage-act-isnt-the-right-statute-to-criminalize-trump

Quote:

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Note that prosecutors do not need to show that Trump knew it was national defense information, but rather that a reasonable person should have known it was. Hawg raised an interesting question in another thread. When did the Espionage Act enter the picture? I'm guessing it entered the (internal) picture sometime in 2019-20 but not until these documents could they pin anything on Trump.

---

My take? The moment Jack Smith put that odious 11th Circuit opinion on the appointment of a Special Master into his briefcase. Armed with that opinion, and along DOJ Nat Sec's Bratt and Monaco, anything they say is "national defense information" is national defense information and there is absolutely no way to ever challenge such determination. Not by a party and according to the 11th Circuit, not by any court.

Armed with that decision, Smith could say the results of Trump's colonoscopy could be deemed "national defense information." Enter, stage left, the Espionage Act.

HTownAg98 said:

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Same for Obama. His records were housed in a secured warehouse in the Chicago area. There's process to be followed, and it seems in Trump's case no one really thought much about it, so documents that shouldn't have been comingled ended up being mixed up. At the end of the day, it's the President's staff's responsibility to go through things and make sure what is a personal record is retained and what is a presidential record is turned over. ETA: And, most importantly, if you find something you shouldn't have, you turn it over immediately.

---

It has been reported that NARA would have a highly secured area in the warehouse for records that were classified.

At the time they moved them over, there might be comingling, but as the workers found them, they were supposed to be moved to the classified documents area.

Sounds star chambery.

Quote:

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Good read: The Espionage Act Isn't the Right Statute to Criminalize Trump

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/the-espionage-act-isnt-the-right-statute-to-criminalize-trump

---

Meh. I find this debate about "the right" statute interesting, but I'm underwhelmed by that article. The original name of the legislative act which created the specific laws they allege Trump and Nauta violated isn't a meaningful legal argument about whether the underlying actual statute is the "right" statute.

Edited to add: The obvious idea of the inclusion of the crimes Trump and Nauta are alleged to have violated within the "Espionage Act" is to minimize the possibility for "espionage" by anyone from the get go. In other words: Keep **** where is belongs so that we can best prevent spies from finding it.

jrdaustin said:

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To answer one of the first questions, a search found a "fact check" "debunking" one of Trumps earlier claims that GHWB had kept his documents at a bowling alley/chinese restaurant.

The fact check refuted his statement by saying that NARA had designated a building that had once been the aforementioned bowling alley/chinese restaurant (I assume in College Station) as the transitional depository for all of GHWB's records while the library was being built. I'm guessing the deliniation of Personal vs. Presidential records occurred over the next ? number of years both at the temporary location, and the library once it was built.

Which brings us to Trump.

The fact that all of those boxes were a MAL in the first place indicates that NARA/Biden Admin initially designated MAL as the temporary holding facility for ALL of Trump's records; or, simply dropped the ball and didn't designate anything, only to later raise an issue because an opportunity presented itself.

Trump has definitely not helped himself in this debacle, but I'm having a very hard time seeing the criminality narrative that is being pushed.

---

Nope. Those are the documents that Trump identified as personal and took with him. He considered them his.

Sure, there may have been some mistakes, but they should have been turned over when found.

Since Trump had no site for a library or museum, the Presidential records were stored in Washington, DC, under NARA control not sent to Mar-a-Lago for Trump to control.

jrdaustin said:

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FishrCoAg said:

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jrdaustin said:

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Mondemonium's attempt at derail notwithstanding, here's my follow up:

As I understand the situation, there is necesarilly a time required in which the Archivist of NARA and the EOP have to determine what is Presidential, and what is Personal. Members of an outgoing administration have days to get everything packed and out. Naturally, Presidential and Personal records will be comingled.

PRA desginates that a NARA "holding factility" be designated to house the records, but looking a recent precedent, the fact that Biden and Pence as VPs had boxes of records as well that contained classified documents indicates that there is not a difinitive process has been normally followed.

So my questions are:
1. Why did not NARA and/or the Biden administration have a facility designated to transport records to? And is this even a thing? What happened to the boxes of records under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, & Obama while Personal records were being sorted from Presidential records.

2. Was it not Biden/NARA that originally authorized sending the docs to MAL?

(I would argue that the first Bush presidency might provide the only comparable example as GHWB was the only one-term president who had run for re-election and lost.) Were Bush's records sent to A&M? I do know that the library was not built yet. I'm not even sure ground was broken. So where did they go?

To me, these are the driving factors of whether this indictment holds water. To Mondemonium's derail, it is an inane argument to assert that Trump should have had to turn over all his Personal records along with Presidential records to avoid prosecution. And this is not about drinking a Beer. It's an administrative, process dispute that has been conflated to a crime for political purposes. Everyone knows it. Half the country is willing to admit it.

---

From election day to inauguration is 2+ months. Did they even start sorting or were they too focused on the "stop the steal" campaign that Trump is on reportedly on record as knowing was untrue?

---

My guess is no. Up until Jan 6th, I think Trump believed that the election was fraudulent and that his presidency would continue. If that's the case, then the WH had 14 days to prepare to vacate. Basically, just enough time to throw everything into boxes and sort it out later.

Not the smartest thing to do, but hardly criminal.

---

I've read that NARA employees were sent to the White House a month or so before to train the White House employees on how different records should be handled and to help them with the job.

2 indictments down and maybe 2 to go ? I'm pretty sure he gets indicted in Georgia next.

Why is the left so terrified of Trump?

Encouraged that De Santis is ready to gut the alphabet agencies.

The most experienced litigant of all time.

The stress of being under indictment in one case would crush most people. Trump shrugs it off like its nothing and trolls even harder.

Trump is a one of a kind human in that regard.

fka ftc said:

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FishrCoAg said:

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jrdaustin said:

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FishrCoAg said:

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Unless you are required by law to have it done…

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LIke Biden obviously did, right? I mean, he had only 7 years to go through his crap, where Trump had a huge two years.

---

Stealing a blue star of whataboutism for this reply.

---

There should be a flag for people claiming whataboutism.

We have a concept in our judicial system based on Common Law called "precedence". People who snark back with "whataboutism" are directly in conflict with the concept of "precedence".

---

Precedents are the result of actual trials and decisions in courts.

That's why attorneys (or paralegals) spend time going through cases to look for cases that are "on point" with decisions that establish a precedent. A higher court can overturn those decisions, too.

The more he gets, the worse it looks to people on the street though who don't care either way. The people who don't take those polls.

jrdaustin said:

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FishrCoAg said:

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jrdaustin said:

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FishrCoAg said:

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Unless you are required by law to have it done…

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LIke Biden obviously did, right? I mean, he had only 7 years to go through his crap, where Trump had a huge two years.

---

Stealing a blue star of whataboutism for this reply.

---

Ok. So equal justice means nothing to you, correct? No need to hold a VP to the same standard with 2.5x the time and less records to go through. We've got our man, no?

Whataboutism is a fun card to play in the political arena. We're in the legal arena now, and precedent is a thing.

---

So which court decisions do you claim would excuse Trump?

TXAggie2011 said:

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Quote:

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Good read: The Espionage Act Isn't the Right Statute to Criminalize Trump

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/the-espionage-act-isnt-the-right-statute-to-criminalize-trump

---

Meh. I find this debate about "the right" statute interesting, but I'm underwhelmed by that article. The original name of the legislative act which created the specific laws they allege Trump and Nauta violated isn't a meaningful legal argument about whether the underlying actual statute is the "right" statute.

Edited to add: The obvious idea of the inclusion of the crimes Trump and Nauta are alleged to have violated within the "Espionage Act" is to minimize the possibility for "espionage" by anyone from the get go. In other words: Keep **** where is belongs so that we can best prevent spies from finding it.

---

Then Biden should be charged for packing the stuff and shipping to Trump. No?

Opalka said:

---

Mondemonium said:

---

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

---

All you people arguing the law and the facts got to remember one thing.

It took the release of a biological weapon to keep Trump from cruising to re-election.

We've now seen all three branches of government weaponized against Trump, plus the media and deep state.

So we day-by-day on this in an unprecedented situation where no legal or technical argument may matter. Any theory is as good as any other theory. Absolutely anything could happen here.

---

Wuhan China is under what branch of government? Who was in power when the biological weapon was released? The Trump executive branch was weaponized.... against Trump.

---

Trump was given every opportunity, every off-ramp, to avoid this situation. He chose to play games instead. Biden gave the FBI an open invitation to search and retrieve any classified documents. So did Pence. That's why they aren't being charged the way Trump is.

Trying to tie COVID to getting rid of Trump?? Now you've gone off the deep end. P.S....there is no "deep state", it's a complete fabrication by right wing conspiracy nuts. But I acknowledge your right to buy into that nonsense. Maybe some day, you'll see how you've been duped into that craziness, but I doubt it.

---

Apply this standard to George Floyd and get back to me.

eric76 said:

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fka ftc said:

---

FishrCoAg said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

FishrCoAg said:

---

Unless you are required by law to have it done…

---

LIke Biden obviously did, right? I mean, he had only 7 years to go through his crap, where Trump had a huge two years.

---

Stealing a blue star of whataboutism for this reply.

---

There should be a flag for people claiming whataboutism.

We have a concept in our judicial system based on Common Law called "precedence". People who snark back with "whataboutism" are directly in conflict with the concept of "precedence".

---

Precedents are the result of actual trials and decisions in courts.

That's why attorneys (or paralegals) spend time going through cases to look for cases that are "on point" with decisions that establish a precedent. A higher court can overturn those decisions, too.

---

This is incorrect. You think if a police department only arrests black people is perfectly okay I guess.

Equal application of the law follows through the ENTIRE legal process in order for justice to be served. Its not limited to trials, courts and decisions.

It's a bad precedent, decorum (whatever word we want to use) to go after political opponents this way. If Hillary were prosecuted, I'd wager 2016-2020 would've been way more firey than it already was.

eric76 said:

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I've read that NARA employees were sent to the White House a month or so before to train the White House employees on how different records should be handled and to help them with the job.

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And you have proof that NARA was actually helpful in this process? Including their refusal to select an appropriate, secure storage location?

WATCH: Demonstrator jumps in front of Trump's motorcade as the former President departed the federal courthouse in Miami pic.twitter.com/mfwZM2wwzo

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) June 13, 2023

fka ftc said:

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Opalka said:

---

Mondemonium said:

---

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

---

All you people arguing the law and the facts got to remember one thing.

It took the release of a biological weapon to keep Trump from cruising to re-election.

We've now seen all three branches of government weaponized against Trump, plus the media and deep state.

So we day-by-day on this in an unprecedented situation where no legal or technical argument may matter. Any theory is as good as any other theory. Absolutely anything could happen here.

---

Wuhan China is under what branch of government? Who was in power when the biological weapon was released? The Trump executive branch was weaponized.... against Trump.

---

Trump was given every opportunity, every off-ramp, to avoid this situation. He chose to play games instead. Biden gave the FBI an open invitation to search and retrieve any classified documents. So did Pence. That's why they aren't being charged the way Trump is.

Trying to tie COVID to getting rid of Trump?? Now you've gone off the deep end. P.S....there is no "deep state", it's a complete fabrication by right wing conspiracy nuts. But I acknowledge your right to buy into that nonsense. Maybe some day, you'll see how you've been duped into that craziness, but I doubt it.

---

Apply this standard to George Floyd and get back to me.

---

LOL, the ridiculousness continues. No surprise, all a person can do is laugh at this kind of thing anymore.

fc2112 said:

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This thread is just crawling with whataboutism facts about the unequal application of justice and the law.

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jrdaustin said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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There is no reason, when the DOJ has been sued, that the DOJ should be expected to sit back as a judge butchers the law multiple times.

---

So appointing a Special Master never happens when the FBI seizes attorney client communications?

That is what you are saying?

---

Not only that, but tax returns, passports, personal documents and items, private records containing personal notations, etc.

Apparently all of that is fair game against a former POTUS dare they question the actions of the almighty F. B. I.

Not to mention it's information that can be quite useful in a future election campaign.

---

"Taint team". I assume that they did their job and returned documents that were not covered by the subpoena. Did they not do that?

Opalka said:

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fka ftc said:

---

Opalka said:

---

Trump was given every opportunity, every off-ramp, to avoid this situation. He chose to play games instead. Biden gave the FBI an open invitation to search and retrieve any classified documents. So did Pence. That's why they aren't being charged the way Trump is.

Trying to tie COVID to getting rid of Trump?? Now you've gone off the deep end. P.S....there is no "deep state", it's a complete fabrication by right wing conspiracy nuts. But I acknowledge your right to buy into that nonsense. Maybe some day, you'll see how you've been duped into that craziness, but I doubt it.

---

Apply this standard to George Floyd and get back to me.

---

LOL, the ridiculousness continues. No surprise, all a person can do is laugh at this kind of thing anymore.

---

You said it. Noted you think the George Floyd overdose and violent uprisings are just fun things to laugh about.

aggiehawg said:

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ThunderCougarFalconBird said:

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So I just found out that Judge Cannon was randomly picked off of the wheel. Hilarious.

---

There are apparently 7 federal district court judges in the Southern District. But as a practical matter, only two of those 7 get assigned criminal cases. So it was basically a 50/50 chance she would get the case.

---

I wold imagine that she's under a microsocope now.

For all of you getting your knickers in a knot over this case.....there's a LOT more coming down the pike. Namely, regarding Jan. 6th. except there are now 10 congressmen's names associated with it, that met with Pence to try to talk him into overturning the election results. And that could be YUGE, if 10 congressmen go down with Trump on that one. You can probably guess most of the names, like Jim Jordon, MTG. Stay tuned.

fc2112 said:

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This thread is just crawling with whataboutism.

---

You mean the Comey/Hillary standard for the crime of mishandling documents and obstruction?

That's a standard my good friend, not whataboutism.

Hopefully it's applied by the jury instead of being applied by the corrupt justice department like it should have been.

Not Guilty Your Honor!

You can say that Trump shouldn't have done what he did and that Hillary shouldn't have either. But one is being charged, and "no reasonable prosecutor" could bring charges on the other.

Despite, y'know, the hammers, BleachBit, and files on a disgraced Congressman's laptop.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Sounds star chambery.

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Even worse. It was a set up.

Watch this and then I'll explain.

the_batman26 said:

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You can say that Trump shouldn't have done what he did and that Hillary shouldn't have either. But one is being charged, and "no reasonable prosecutor" could bring charges on the other.

Despite, y'know, the hammers, BleachBit, and files on a disgraced Congressman's laptop.

---

Trump had every right to do what he did. He did nothing new and set no precedent.

The deep state is just a bunch of criminals attempting to cover their tracks.