You're twisted like a pretzel trying to protect an 80 year old buffoon... congrats.

Phatbob said:

---

I get what you are saying about Trump being a stand-in for the "anti-establishment" vote, but it's entirely an emotional vote. It is the teenage boy punching the wall because of what his BSC girlfriend is doing to him.

Except it is NOT the "anti-establishment" vote that will do anything good. It might be a reaction to the insanity of the left, but it is not the opposite of insanity, it is just the same level of insanity against the left (not of the right, just anti-people-on-the-left). There is a huge difference.

We are still letting the left choose our candidate for us. We are still letting them frame the debate. We need to confront insanity with sanity, not with the opposite force of crazy. If we really do stand for something, we need to stick to that, otherwise we are capitulating to what they want. We DO NOT want a battle of reckless emotional non-rationalism. The left will win that battle every time.

Trump will not be around in 2028 politically, one way or the other. What will he have given us? We can say we need to burn the system to the ground.... great! Even IF he were to do that (and he has given us 0 evidence that he is capable, or that he even wants to do so), what are we going to replace it with? Trump's version of the system??? People need to think past their emotions here. Trump is culturally part of the problem. He is a leader that you support with your feelings, not with your brain, and THAT is what has gotten us to the situation we are now trying to rebel against.

So I reject that he is the "anti-establishment" candidate. He is just the mirror of the left.

---

Then WHY are they STILL going after him with MADE UP CRIMES?

They are literally changing laws to go after him...NY changed their law to indict him...over something that is nothing more than HEARSAY...

If DeSantis can prove to be as dangerous to the establishment as Trump has proven to be, then more power to him...let him lead the war...

I personally thing a great campaign t-shirt would be the following:

"FOLLOW THE SCIENCE:

XX = Girl
XY = Boy"

I'd line up for that campaign in a heartbeat...and you better damn well believe it would grab headlines away from Trump...

Adults can do as they please...If an adult wants to tuck and wear panties, it's none of my business...

Where I draw the line is influencing and permanently disfiguring children, along with trying to groom children to think it's normal to have sex with adults...

You wanna be proud of your mental disease as an adult? Be my guest...

Stop trying to force it on children...period...

Science Denier said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

Science Denier said:

---

Quote:

---

Repeats the same lies over and over again from Trump about DeSantis.

---

Nothing I've posted was ever said by Trump.
I've posted actual articles from actual sources.

---

That are immediately debunked by multiple posters and then you just ignore them, take a few days off and come back to crylaugh troll bomb your way for a few more hours with blatant lies, just like your Dear Leader.

---

Immediately debunked? LOL

Screaming REEEE BIASED on an article with actual facts is not debunking.
Screaming REEEE LIES is not debunking when actual facts stand in your way.

---

This is exactly the problem and why no one takes you seriously. You crylaugh your way through labeling every counterpoint to your unproven/logical leap assertions as a REEE and then just repeat your claim. There's no point in anyone even attempting to have a discussion with you.

They are going after him because they also are making decisions on emotion. They hate him with a passion. The reason the left goes so hard against Trump, and why they win against him, is because he is the perfect bad guy for them. He is (legitimately) an a-hole. In their minds, he exactly fits into the role of the archetypal villain in Avatar. He is narcissistic, says cheesy bombastic things that are easy to disprove, and he has rabid adherents. The left sees themselves as the enlightened saviors of whetever-the-hell-oppressed-of-today, and it gives them shots of dopamine every time they throw rotten vegetables at the "bad guy".

When the opposition is NOT handling themselves like the Sheriff of Nottingham, it takes that emotional ammo away, and they have to deal with the logic of their positions. I would rather deal with the left on the terms of them having to prove their positions rather than them going for that next dopamine hit of their mental crusade battle.

Science Denier said:

---

Old May Banker said:

---

See the post directly above yours... he said it perfectly.

---

Uh, except I never quoted articles about DeSantis being part of the establishment.

I posted articles about DeSantis taking money from many lobbyists that got very favorable legislation approved for their special interests in Florida.

I also concluded that having a history of being able to be bought is why establishment likes him, and why so many ultra-rich are backing him over Trump, who has actually proven he can be bought.

To further that point, I've not been able to read a single article that says DeSantis is indeed an insider, much less post one. Just that he grifts like one.

So, no. I've not posted any articles from the establishment that says DeSantis is an insider. Therefore, the quote you reference is factually not accurate.

---

Virtually every "Ultra Rich" donor DeSantis has previously backed Trump. So they were good then but bad now?

I also don't get how Universal benefiting from people avoiding Disney for Grooming policies is an issue with DeSantis but ok.

Quote:

---

Virtually every "Ultra Rich" donor DeSantis has previously backed Trump. So they were good then but bad now?

---

I never said they were bad. They are switching to someone that has PROVEN he can be bought with money.

Phatbob said:

---

They are going after him because they also are making decisions on emotion. They hate him with a passion. The reason the left goes so hard against Trump, and why they win against him, is because he is the perfect bad guy for them. He is (legitimately) an a-hole. In their minds, he exactly fits into the role of the archetypal villain in Avatar. He is narcissistic, says cheesy bombastic things that are easy to disprove, and he has rabid adherents. The left sees themselves as the enlightened saviors of whetever-the-hell-oppressed-of-today, and it gives them shots of dopamine every time they throw rotten vegetables at the "bad guy".

When the opposition is NOT handling themselves like the Sheriff of Nottingham, it takes that emotional ammo away, and they have to deal with the logic of their positions. I would rather deal with the left on the terms of them having to prove their positions rather than them going for that next dopamine hit of their mental crusade battle.

---

The establishment doesn't waste their time and resources going after someone just to get their jollies, my friend...

They go after someone who is a threat to how they believe the country, and the world, should actually be...

FireAg said:

---

Phatbob said:

---

I get what you are saying about Trump being a stand-in for the "anti-establishment" vote, but it's entirely an emotional vote. It is the teenage boy punching the wall because of what his BSC girlfriend is doing to him.

Except it is NOT the "anti-establishment" vote that will do anything good. It might be a reaction to the insanity of the left, but it is not the opposite of insanity, it is just the same level of insanity against the left (not of the right, just anti-people-on-the-left). There is a huge difference.

We are still letting the left choose our candidate for us. We are still letting them frame the debate. We need to confront insanity with sanity, not with the opposite force of crazy. If we really do stand for something, we need to stick to that, otherwise we are capitulating to what they want. We DO NOT want a battle of reckless emotional non-rationalism. The left will win that battle every time.

Trump will not be around in 2028 politically, one way or the other. What will he have given us? We can say we need to burn the system to the ground.... great! Even IF he were to do that (and he has given us 0 evidence that he is capable, or that he even wants to do so), what are we going to replace it with? Trump's version of the system??? People need to think past their emotions here. Trump is culturally part of the problem. He is a leader that you support with your feelings, not with your brain, and THAT is what has gotten us to the situation we are now trying to rebel against.

So I reject that he is the "anti-establishment" candidate. He is just the mirror of the left.

---

Then WHY are they STILL going after him with MADE UP CRIMES?

They are literally changing laws to go after him...NY changed their law to indict him...over something that is nothing more than HEARSAY...

If DeSantis can prove to be as dangerous to the establishment as Trump has proven to be, then more power to him...let him lead the war...

I personally thing a great campaign t-shirt would be the following:

"FOLLOW THE SCIENCE:

XX = Girl
XY = Boy"

I'd line up for that campaign in a heartbeat...and you better damn well believe it would grab headlines away from Trump...

---

I think you need to listen to some DeSantis speeches. He is basically doing this. He rails against the Swamp and Establishment daily and talks about Gender nonsense daily. He has a real plan for both btw and he the Swamp fix is literally being written by Massie, Roy, and Victor David Hansen who are 3 of the brightest minds in the conservative movement.

What proof? The establishment articles that you just said don't prove anything?

I have listened...I think you need to see the subtly of what I am saying...

"Basically" saying something isn't good enough...

He needs to do what he did with Disney...get right in their faces and say it with crystal clear authority...

If he wants to get the attention of the Trump Voting Bloc, he needs to go grab some headlines...

Mr. Establishment

Worse Than Trump™ has now kicked into high gear https://t.co/upMPg1C8Wk

— Ben Shapiro (@benshapiro) June 27, 2023

FireAg said:

---

Adults can do as they please...If an adult wants to tuck and wear panties, it's none of my business...

Where I draw the line is influencing and permanently disfiguring children, along with trying to groom children to think it's normal to have sex with adults...

You wanna be proud of your mental disease as an adult? Be my guest...

Stop trying to force it on children...period...

---

I don't disagree in general but I am just saying if those issues are your pain point then DeSantis is a no brainer choice over Trump. I am not saying Trump doesn't care about those issues but he certainly is not as passionate about them and has given them nothing but a little bit of lip service. If you want to vote for Trump because of foreign policy, sure. If you want to vote for him because he is being persecuted by the Swamp, ok. If you want to vote for him because you thought he was a wrecking ball, I get it.

If you are voting for him because you think he is someone that will use serious political capitol to fight Woke issues and especially gender issues with children though you aren't paying attention. Trump didn't like the Bud Light or Disney stuff for instance. Those issues are barely on his radar and he has always had a socially liberal bent to him. For DeSantis it is absolutely front and center and he has put his career on the line fighting Disney and he is very much of a family first guy who is sincerely religious.

Let me also say this...

I don't think RD is an establishment hack, although others may disagree...

I think he shares many of my same viewpoints...

But he has to do something to get some momentum...he needs to grab some headlines...or his approach is going to fall on deaf ears with the Trump Voting Bloc...

Science Denier said:

---

Quote:

---

Virtually every "Ultra Rich" donor DeSantis has previously backed Trump. So they were good then but bad now?

---

I never said they were bad. They are switching to someone that has PROVEN he can be bought with money.

---

Science Denier said:

---

Quote:

---

Virtually every "Ultra Rich" donor DeSantis has previously backed Trump. So they were good then but bad now?

---

I never said they were bad. They are switching to someone that has PROVEN he can be bought with money.

---

Except for Disney and other donors who are pissed that DeSantis won't give them his cell number or special access to "listen to their concerns". DeSantis has made it clear he stands for X and if you want to support him great but he is going to stand for X. Now sometimes X may benefit someone donating to him but that doesn't make him corrupt. Your logic is that if someone donates to your campaign and has similar values then it is bad. Of course if they donate to your campaign and have different values that is REALLY bad. It's interesting logic.

aggie93 said:

---

FireAg said:

---

Adults can do as they please...If an adult wants to tuck and wear panties, it's none of my business...

Where I draw the line is influencing and permanently disfiguring children, along with trying to groom children to think it's normal to have sex with adults...

You wanna be proud of your mental disease as an adult? Be my guest...

Stop trying to force it on children...period...

---

I don't disagree in general but I am just saying if those issues are your pain point then DeSantis is a no brainer choice over Trump. I am not saying Trump doesn't care about those issues but he certainly is not as passionate about them and has given them nothing but a little bit of lip service. If you want to vote for Trump because of foreign policy, sure. If you want to vote for him because he is being persecuted by the Swamp, ok. If you want to vote for him because you thought he was a wrecking ball, I get it.

If you are voting for him because you think he is someone that will use serious political capitol to fight Woke issues and especially gender issues with children though you aren't paying attention. Trump didn't like the Bud Light or Disney stuff for instance. Those issues are barely on his radar and he has always had a socially liberal bent to him. For DeSantis it is absolutely front and center and he has put his career on the line fighting Disney and he is very much of a family first guy who is sincerely religious.

---

Meh...I don't really give a **** about Bud Light...

They went with a woke marketing strategy, it blew up in their face due to being out of touch with their core consumer base, and it cost them billions...that's how free markets should work...

Disney has paid a hefty price for this approach as well and it has cost them at the box office dearly...

But again, I don't need Trump or DeSantis to have a hand in either of those...the free market spoke...that's how it should be...

The problem with DeSantis right now is perception...whether he has great policies or not, the perception is he is getting lost in the noise...

The dude needs to make some moves to grab some headlines...it will give him momentum and traction within the Trump Voting Bloc...

Don't attack Trump...that's what Trump wants and it is a recipe for disaster...

But be bold and start attacking liberal bull**** at the top of your lungs and get a few of the national headlines to start reporting your bold words...

FireAg said:

---

Let me also say this...

I don't think RD is an establishment hack, although others may disagree...

I think he shares many of my same viewpoints...

But he has to do something to get some momentum...he needs to grab some headlines...are his approach is going to fall on deaf ears with the Trump Voting Bloc...

---

I think the thing you are missing then is that there is very little DeSantis could do right now to "grab some headlines" and if he did they wouldn't really matter. Most people just aren't paying attention to the race right now, these stories are only for political junkies for the most part. In 6 months that will change. So what is DeSantis doing now? Ground game and individual reach out in strategic areas with strategic messaging.

I know it is a broken record but it's a marathon not a sprint and the polls today really don't matter much when comparing a very well known candidate to a lesser known candidate and most people aren't paying attention.

I disagree...if he wants to be the new face of the R party...if the orange governor wants to shift the momentum and focus away from the orange man...he needs to make at least a couple of bold attacks against liberals and the establishment to show the Trump Voters that DeSantis isn't going to just fade in the face of the national establishment which is against true conservative principles and ideals...

In other words...if the dude wants to get some momentum...he needs to show some teeth...

FireAg said:

---

I disagree...if he wants to be the new face of the R party...if the orange governor wants to shift the momentum and focus away from the orange man...he needs to make at least a couple of bold attacks against liberals and the establishment to show the Trump Voters that DeSantis isn't going to just fade in the face of the national establishment which is against true conservative principles and ideals...

In other words...if the dude wants to get some momentum...he needs to show some teeth...

---

Once again, he has been pretty fierce in his words and he was just at the border yesterday saying he is in favor of shooting Cartel members trying to get through the Wall. It's just anything Desantis does at this stage is going to be a lower tier story. He can't win the election right now even if he had better poll numbers. You have to understand the larger picture.

The game is about winning votes in 8-12 months not now.

BTW, if you want to understand his strategy it is based around what Obama did in 2008 with Hillary.

FireAg said:

---

I disagree...if he wants to be the new face of the R party...if the orange governor wants to shift the momentum and focus away from the orange man...he needs to make at least a couple of bold attacks against liberals and the establishment to show the Trump Voters that DeSantis isn't going to just fade in the face of the national establishment which is against true conservative principles and ideals...

In other words...if the dude wants to get some momentum...he needs to show some teeth...

---

Like, going after a large multi-national corporation on 'woke' issues? Like sending illegal immigrants to Martha's Vineyard? He probably should look into doing that sort of thing, I guess...

Is there anything specific you had in mind you would like to see from DeSantis?

FireAg said:

---

Phatbob said:

---

They are going after him because they also are making decisions on emotion. They hate him with a passion. The reason the left goes so hard against Trump, and why they win against him, is because he is the perfect bad guy for them. He is (legitimately) an a-hole. In their minds, he exactly fits into the role of the archetypal villain in Avatar. He is narcissistic, says cheesy bombastic things that are easy to disprove, and he has rabid adherents. The left sees themselves as the enlightened saviors of whetever-the-hell-oppressed-of-today, and it gives them shots of dopamine every time they throw rotten vegetables at the "bad guy".

When the opposition is NOT handling themselves like the Sheriff of Nottingham, it takes that emotional ammo away, and they have to deal with the logic of their positions. I would rather deal with the left on the terms of them having to prove their positions rather than them going for that next dopamine hit of their mental crusade battle.

---

The establishment doesn't waste their time and resources going after someone just to get their jollies, my friend...

They go after someone who is a threat to how they believe the country, and the world, should actually be...

---

They will do that no matter who, you are right, but the reason why it works better on Trump is for the reasons I've stated... the voting public feels justified in their emotions about Trump, but it's a lot harder when they have to justify it to themselves logically.

lol... so RDS needs to make an ass of himself on social media and attack conservatives to "show some teeth"? Is that the message here?

Putting aside the hilarity of Bud Light being front and center here, this is the women's group that is so upset that DeSantis planned an event in NH during their fundraiser.

Totally unbiased while serving "MAGA Mimosas." The GOP is an incestuous pit. https://t.co/FsEdesXSCV

— Bonchie (@bonchieredstate) June 27, 2023

The @RonDeSantis town hall in Hollis is filling up fast.
From our reporter on the scene: "VERY full, lots of people standing in the back, had to add in more chairs."@NHGOP #NHPolitics #FITN pic.twitter.com/NxZJU2RaV5

— NH Journal (@NewHampJournal) June 27, 2023

Old May Banker said:

---

lol... so RDS needs to make an ass of himself on social media and attack conservatives to "show some teeth"? Is that the message here?

---

Lol exactly. Anyone still voting for trump in the primary is clearly not interested in someone who is focused on policy and can actually accomplish conservative goals, they just want a political pro wrestling show. DeSantis just needs to pull the votes from the non-trump candidates as they (hopefully) drop out and he'll be fine.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

Old May Banker said:

---

lol... so RDS needs to make an ass of himself on social media and attack conservatives to "show some teeth"? Is that the message here?

---

Lol exactly. Anyone still voting for trump in the primary is clearly not interested in someone who is focused on policy and can actually accomplish conservative goals, they just want a political pro wrestling show. DeSantis just needs to pull the votes from the non-trump candidates as they (hopefully) drop out and he'll be fine.

---

I think once the debates come around, then difference will be so obvious even die-hard Trumpists will have a hard time justifying themselves

FireAg said:

---

Aligning with values doesn't mean **** to me on the campaign trail…

It doesn't mean **** to me in the Oval Office unless you continue the fight you said you would…

R governors who have run seemingly good, conservative states have gone to Washington and been completely absorbed by the establishment…. W is a great example of this…

So I'm glad DeSantis has done good for Florida…but will he keep up the fight and stand his ****ing ground in the face of the lunatic left, even when they call him a bigot for having common sense morals?

We have no way to know…will he fight or will he compromise? We just don't know until it happens…

And THAT is why folks on the orange man side are skeptical of the orange state guy…they have no way to know…. Right or wrong, that's how they feel, and that's all that matters…

Trump will continue to stand his ground and be a dick to those I want to be a dick to…he is a dick to others too, without question, but he is at least a dick to those who think in a way that is catastrophic to our society…

If DeSantis wins, and I will support whomever the R candidate is at the end of the day, then he needs to buck the trend like Trump did and keep up the fight and keep the pressure on the lunatics on the other side…call a spade a spade and don't ****ing tiptoe around their feels…

Put down the debauchery…no matter what…

---

Good Lord.

"Being a dick" doesn't get **** done, as we saw with Trump the first time. He got nothing lasting accomplished, other than SCotUS. This is more of the stupid "proven warrior" derpitude.

No, he's not. He's proven to get worked over.

DD88 said:

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More details on The DeSantis No Excuses Border Plan:

BREAKING: 2024 Republican presidential hopeful Ron DeSantis has officially debuted his plan "to secure the border once and for all."

DeSantis vowed to go beyond anything Trump had done and named the plan "No Excuses"

The 4-pillar plan is below: Wall, Cartels, Invasion, States pic.twitter.com/SwEXgjQu5z

— Anna Giaritelli (@Anna_Giaritelli) June 26, 2023

---

The only thing missing from the plan is interior enforcement. Just pushing everify is not enough...need boots on the ground for employer/school/landlord enforcement, cooperation with LEOs, override sanctuary cities. Otherwise, love it.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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What proof? The establishment articles that you just said don't prove anything?

---

Political donations and voting records are public record.

Science Denier said:

---

Definitely Not A Cop said:

---

What proof? The establishment articles that you just said don't prove anything?

---

Political donations and voting records are public record.

---

I bet he probably scolded people who won't buy Bud Light anymore because BL donate a lot of money to him...

Science Denier said:

---

Quote:

---

Virtually every "Ultra Rich" donor DeSantis has previously backed Trump. So they were good then but bad now?

---

I never said they were bad. They are switching to someone that has PROVEN he can be bought with money.

---

Where's the proof that DeSantis has been bought with money?

FireAg said:

---

I disagree...if he wants to be the new face of the R party...if the orange governor wants to shift the momentum and focus away from the orange man...he needs to make at least a couple of bold attacks against liberals and the establishment to show the Trump Voters that DeSantis isn't going to just fade in the face of the national establishment which is against true conservative principles and ideals...

In other words...if the dude wants to get some momentum...he needs to show some teeth...

---

I'm sorry but between your posts yesterday here's what I'm gathering is your stance....

When it comes to behavior, you hold a higher bar for Desantis and his supporters than what you hold Trump and Trump supporters. Trump/Trump fans playing in the mud is just Trump being Trump and that's not a turnoff to you. Desantis/Desantis supporters responding in kind is repulsive and a reason for you to dislike Desantis.

Trump proves over the past 7 years that he capipulates to the ever changing winds of the populist movement and is a blowhard who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. That somehow shows you that he's a proven warrior who will fight against the establishment. Desantis gets very conservative legislation passed on numerous fronts, very publicly takes on one of the biggest liberal corporations IN THE WORLD (Disney) and is winning, and very publicly takes on other liberal ideologies, and yet he still has something to prove and needs to make a splash.

Man, if your mind is already made up to vote Trump and you have no intention of entertaining the thought of switching it to Desantis, that's fine and its your perogative. But just state that. I respect the "anti-establishment" argument you've laid out. But don't pretend like Desantis could earn your vote if he just "does a little more".

Science Denier said:

---

Definitely Not A Cop said:

---

What proof? The establishment articles that you just said don't prove anything?

---

Political donations and voting records are public record.

---

So that means Trump was establishment also because he got the donations from the same folks that's donating to DeSantis.

Guess this is no longer a talking point.