You are

TxTarpon said:

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fc2112 said:

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... 76 men, women and children at the Branch Division compound outside of Waco.

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And this child molester ran their cult.

FAFO
PSGWSP

Randy Weaver is a better hero.

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And no one was punished.

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This (censored) enacted some punishment on federal workers in OKC because he thought the govt needed some payback for Waco.


Both Koresh and McVeigh are in hell.
If you choose to make them heroes them....oh well.

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Not a single person here has done that, intimated that or even remotely hinted at that.

It is possible - and just bear with me here - to recognize that Koresh was a lunatic and likely somebody that needed to be legally taken out of society AND recognize that the feds took a literal sht on the constitution while staring into the TV cameras with the manner that they handled everything from the surveillance of Koresh up to the raid and through the eventual burning to death of those still in side.

I know...it takes a couple of brain cells rubbing together in your noggin to understand that, but I bet if you try hard you can.

You can want retribution for bad acts regardless of who those bad acts were perpetrated against.

fc2112 said:

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... 76 men, women and children at the Branch Division compound outside of Waco.

And no one was punished.

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Actually, they committed suicide. But, whatever

Ellis Wyatt said:

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Actually, they committed suicide. But, whatever

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Some may have. Most absolutely did not.

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True. Most were killed by the fire set by the Davidians

You are correct!!!

combat wombat said:

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You can want retribution for bad acts regardless of who those bad acts were perpetrated against.

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To avenge a false prophet pedo who held children as hostages?
Pick a better leader.

What a difference a decade makes.
If in 2003, had a compound inhabited by muslims lead by Mohommed Bin Koresh been raided by the Feds (for the same reasons as Mt Carmel in 1993) in similar aggressive govt fashion, most Americans would have been cheering for the FBI HRT.

You might want to put down the shovel. You are embarrassing yourself.

2040huck said:

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fc2112 said:

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... 76 men, women and children at the Branch Division compound outside of Waco.

And no one was punished.

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Actually, they committed suicide. But, whatever

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Soooooooooooo wrong! To approach the correct assessment...they were murdered, just to satisfy a number of idiot's egos.

whatthehey78 said:

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2040huck said:

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fc2112 said:

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... 76 men, women and children at the Branch Division compound outside of Waco.

And no one was punished.

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Actually, they committed suicide. But, whatever

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Soooooooooooo wrong! To approach the correct assessment...they were murdered, just to satisfy a number of idiot's egos.

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bs, They set the fire. That's not even in dispute. Listen to the audio recoreded at the time. If you deny that, you are not very credible.

Rip*91 said:

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You might want to put down the shovel. You are embarrassing yourself.

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Nah

Ellis Wyatt said:

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fk said:

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But the idea that nothing would have happened if not for the raid is simply not accurate.

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We'll never know because the feds murdered all of those people.

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That's sort of and endless argument that could be had but no one knows if nothing would have happened, or if a simple knock by a social worker would have caused him to initiate his apocalypse and take his flock on to their great reward.

That is sort of the problem when dealing with guys like Koresh.

Again, not defending FBI and ATF, but to absolve Koresh is equally asinine (I don't think that is what you are trying to do, but others seem to lean that way).

I still remember standing in the lobby of Blocker watching the compound burn on the TVs they had in there.

The fbi and atf

TxTarpon said:

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Rip*91 said:

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You might want to put down the shovel. You are embarrassing yourself.

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Nah

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Is that a Carvin?

IIIHorn said:

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TxTarpon said:

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Rip*91 said:

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You might want to put down the shovel. You are embarrassing yourself.

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Nah

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Is that a Carvin?

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M F Barnes

MROD92 said:

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IIIHorn said:

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TxTarpon said:

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Rip*91 said:

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You might want to put down the shovel. You are embarrassing yourself.

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Nah

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Is that a Carvin?

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M F Barnes

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The hardest working man in oil is a luthier?

TxTarpon said:

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combat wombat said:

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You can want retribution for bad acts regardless of who those bad acts were perpetrated against.

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To avenge a false prophet pedo who held children as hostages?
Pick a better leader.

What a difference a decade makes.
If in 2003, had a compound inhabited by muslims lead by Mohommed Bin Koresh been raided by the Feds (for the same reasons as Mt Carmel in 1993) in similar aggressive govt fashion, most Americans would have been cheering for the FBI HRT.

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McVeigh was a POS. Koresh was a POS. Opposing government overreach when it happens isn't the same as supporting the Davidians. Mkay? Im going to stop this back and forth because it's evident you can't be reasoned with. It seems that you are an "ends justify the means" kind of guy. Rights be damned.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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Actually, they committed suicide. But, whatever

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Some may have. Most absolutely did not.

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I understand that the evidence that they started the fire themselves is quite strong. If that is the case, then the ones who should be punished for it died in the very fire they set.

whatthehey78 said:

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2040huck said:

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fc2112 said:

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... 76 men, women and children at the Branch Division compound outside of Waco.

And no one was punished.

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Actually, they committed suicide. But, whatever

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Soooooooooooo wrong! To approach the correct assessment...they were murdered, just to satisfy a number of idiot's egos.

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They were murdered by others in their cult. There is no rational way to blame the FBI for that.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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Actually, they committed suicide. But, whatever

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Some may have. Most absolutely did not.

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That's right. Koresh murdered them.

It's incredible that there are educated people who still think the FBi/ATF started the fire. But then, I'm basing that on a presumption.

TxTarpon said:

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Not a single person here has done that, intimated that or even remotely hinted at that.

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David Koresh was their leader.
His leadership started the chain of events that lead to the raid.
His leadership kept children in the compound as hostages.
He wanted death by cop and he wanted to take as many with him as he could.
FBI HRT obliged him.

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I know...it takes a couple of brain cells rubbing together in your noggin to understand that, but I bet if you try hard you can.

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Rub your eyes (not like Koresh rubbed those toddlers), shake your brain cells loose and reread my 1:36 post.

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And instead of death by cop, didn't he kill himself rather than die in his own fire?

In essence, he killed his cult but committed suicide to avoid the fate that he selected for them.

Rapier108 said:

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All the feds had to do was wait them out, but Clinton and Reno wanted to score a victory.

Heck, the initial raid was all about setting the narrative about the nation being flooded with illegal guns and we need to rid ourselves of them by outlawing guns completely.

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Agree. I believe that the Democrats were preparing to go all in on a much broader weapons ban but after Waco all they could get was a 10 year ban on 'assault' weapons.

In the end, their overreach in Waco and Ruby Ridge convinced millions of Americans that the 2A wasn't just for hunting or self defense, but to protect us from the tyranny of evil men serving in public office. In that regard, those victims are martyrs to a cause they may not have known they were serving.

MouthBQ98 said:

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I agree. The feds set up the circumstances under which a ln apocalyptic cult killed themselves after an unnecessary and horribly botched raid got ATF agents killed.

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It's Wakko, I mean Waco. This also led to another cataclysmic situation when 2 men 2 years later on the same day committed an unspeakable act in OKC. There is plenty of blame on both sides.

Slicer97 said:

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Could've been avoided by just waiting it out and arresting Koresh sometime when he was away from the compound.

Never trust a 3-letter agency. And the ATF should've been disbanded long ago.

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the opposite actually

they were literal idiots and wanted to flex by raiding the compound

when if they had a scintilla of intelligence or empathy for the cultists and kids-

they would have ambushed David Koresh when he drove into town by himself or with a few other folks.

before any raid.

ts5641 said:

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After watching the recent Netflix doc on this, it truly is frightening how the feds operate. Made a terrible decision to raid, got 4 agents killed, uped the ante and ended with multiple men, women, and children dead.
And an FBI SWAT dude took a selfie in front of the burned ruins...

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The depth and extent of the rot and corruption that exists up and down the federal law enforcement and intelligence structure is SHOCKING when you start to peel back the onion.

Watched a few episodes of the Waco series on Paramount+ last night.

This 1993 version of the FBI feels tame compared to what we are experiencing now.

Imagine if Lon Horiuchi had saved the round that found Vicki Weaver's forehead for Koresh as he was strolling into town….

The Clinton/Reno death squad should burn in hell.

Martin Cash said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Actually, they committed suicide. But, whatever

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Some may have. Most absolutely did not.

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That's right. Koresh murdered them.

It's incredible that there are educated people who still think the FBi/ATF started the fire. But then, I'm basing that on a presumption.

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It's probably likely that the fire would never been started if the feds had not raided the compound. Starting the fire was a reaction to the raid. The idea that Koresh and his flock were likely to react violently should have been the most important and salient thing to consider.

Before the standoff, Koresh regularly left the compound. It would have been easy to arrest him on multiple occasions off site. The feds screwed up the situation to an exponential degree because they wanted to make a show of it. I blame the feds, Reno, and Clinton.

Blaming the deaths on Koresh because he started the fire completely misses the much bigger issue. Ok, so they have multiple weapons they're not supposed to have. It's a felony. I get it. They had not done anything violent up to that point. A violent raid is going to be a tragedy when you have that many children there. Handle it differently and the outcome is very different.

The feds screwed this up worse than Ruby Ridge.

LMCane said:

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Slicer97 said:

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Could've been avoided by just waiting it out and arresting Koresh sometime when he was away from the compound.

Never trust a 3-letter agency. And the ATF should've been disbanded long ago.

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the opposite actually

they were literal idiots and wanted to flex by raiding the compound

when if they had a scintilla of intelligence or empathy for the cultists and kids-

they would have ambushed David Koresh when he drove into town by himself or with a few other folks.

before any raid.

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Exactly. There's more than one way to skin a cat. If you're picking the method to benefit your public image, you're probably making a big mistake. The least violent method with the least potential for harm is almost always the best way.

Pretty good summary IMO.

I watched the latest documentary on Netflix, or maybe it was Paramount, and came away from it with a couple of new takes even after all these years of following this complete goat screw of a tragedy.

First, how quickly and easily heavy weapons were moved from Fort Hood to Mt Carmel. Bradleys, Abrams, etc. I find it amazing how quickly the FBI could commandeer front line heavy weapons from the Army to support a purely domestic operation yet we seemingly are completely paralyzed to use similar resources to defend our southern border.

Second, that HRT sniper, who was extensively interviewed in the documentary. It was kind of shocking to me how much he clearly saw himself as a soldier, at best, even a mercenary, in the employ of the US federal govt against it's own citizens. That's not law enforcement. That's war. Those guys were there to kill and they wanted the outcome they received.

Third, prior to and post congressional investigation/testimony, the level of bipartisan condemnation of the BATFE and FBI was compelling. I don't think we will ever see an America like that again. Chuck Schumer was literally ripping the ATF and FBI to shreds, alongside fellow dems and scores of R's. Think about that. Both parties were incensed by the stupidity of the raid that should never have happened.

Anybody that still thinks this country hasn't changed radically in the last three decades really has their head up their ass.