Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

526,041 Views | 9433 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by PlaneCrashGuy
nortex97
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Kotkin, who is one of the very few liberals I sort of like/respect, and he had a podcast on the sitrep here which, though it starts with some lines I think are way off, is as usual a good/solid analysis. Snippets:

Quote:

So I'm with Blackwell and Fontaine that allies have to be on side and that negotiations have to take place and diplomacy, our diplomacy has to be as good as our F-35s, as our submarines, the Columbus-class submarines. That's how good our diplomacy has to be, and they have to be in tandem and with allies. So this is not an idea that we go after the Chinese risking World War III, losing all of our allies. I wouldn't sign onto that, Reagan and Schultz wouldn't have signed onto that. I don't think that's what Gallagher and Pottinger are arguing for even though their rhetoric is about victory. They're borrowing rhetoric from Reagan and Schultz.
Quote:

I'm not ready to give that one out yet, but I'm just saying that we can expect their behavior to continue to help us on our side, consolidate our relationships, alliances. We just need to raise our game so that it's a combination of strength, force, building back our defense industrial complex, deploying 21st not 20th century weapons and all the things that your audience knows about from your shows, but let's reinvest in our diplomacy. Let's get skilled again at the Schultz level in a diplomacy so that people like Blackwell and Fontaine, some of our best national security people, and Gallagher and Pottinger, again, two of our best national security people certainly on China, as well as those people on the other side of the aisle from them can have this shared bipartisan, successful peace through strength policy in all the theaters in which we operate.

We don't want war. War hurts us because we have more to lose. We have the bigger economy. We have the free and open societies. We're prosperous. We don't want to lose that. Look at Ukraine being destroyed as we speak. Russia wins the war by destruction. I can't have it. Nobody can have it. They can Gazafy Ukraine and make Ukraine look like the Gaza moonscape that we have now as a result of Israel's response to Hamas' atrocities and nihilism. So I understand those arguments and I accept those arguments, but I still think we can do what I'm advocating, provided we combine the force investments with the diplomacy investments. It's not rocket science, Aaron.
I'm more on the Erik Prince side that our weapons/drones aren't working real well, but in any case, I agree we can't really eliminate China nor Russia and we should work with diplomacy wherever possible because allowing Russia to turn Ukraine into a moonscape a la Gaza/Bakhmut isn't helpful to America or Ukraine, and we have more at risk than they do in that venture.

Ultimately, we've had the absolute wrong leadership running our foreign policy, sometimes despite the POTUS opinions (think Vindman/Ciaramella/Nuland/Blinken), for much of the past 25 years at least. I think you can find the podcast itself on all the regular places.
J. Walter Weatherman
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GAC06 said:

There it is. It's not that you can't make an argument, it's that everyone else couldn't possibly comprehend it because of the complexities and nuance and whatnot. Again. Troll harder.


Man robs bank, murdering tellers and customers along the way, because he wants to be rich.

Putin apologists "BuT ThE NuAnCe!!!"
Rongagin71
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PlaneCrashGuy said:


I think Lincoln was an a-hole for killing nearly a million people, destroying the economies of a dozen large states, "enrolling" massive numbers of black men into the Union army, and making racial tension a permanent aspect of American politics - but he did hold the election on time and would have left office if defeated.
FDR ran for a third term because WW2 was raging, but he did hold the election and would have left office if defeated.
Zelenski may not be able to hold an election, but he ought to try - or at least have the legislature vote.
YouBet
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To me it's as simple Ukraine wasn't in the club when this happened so they are SOL. I realize that's cynical and partially uncaring for the plight of Ukraine but it's also reality.

- NATO's lines were drawn and Putin was/is not going to cross those.

- Ukraine is corrupt and dysfunctional as hell and didn't qualify for NATO because it couldn't meet the standards for inclusion in the first place. And they still can't; NATO is now saying they will waive all standards and values for inclusion because Putin bad.

- And I think Putin is a bad actor but when you keep antagonizing the bad actor by continually trying to add Russian border countries to your own stable, then don't act surprised when the bad actor lashes out. This common sense cause and effect seems to be ignored by the powers that be.

- Ukraine is heavily tied to Russia through history and genetics.

- Any other country not currently in NATO that is on Russia's border is on their own and is not remotely worth the resources to try and prevent Russian incursion.

- Most importantly, I don't care about another countries sovereignty while we neglect our own. Ukraine is irrelevant while this continues.
Ags4DaWin
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^^this X 1,000^^
Ags4DaWin
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J. Walter Weatherman said:

GAC06 said:

There it is. It's not that you can't make an argument, it's that everyone else couldn't possibly comprehend it because of the complexities and nuance and whatnot. Again. Troll harder.


Man robs bank, murdering tellers and customers along the way, because he wants to be rich.

Putin apologists "BuT ThE NuAnCe!!!"


Horrible analogy.

Man robs a MOB owned bank that the FBI knew was a mob owned bank and protected from federal investigation.

The bank funded everything from bioterrorism labs to funneling weapons to Mexican cartels and MS13.

The mob owned bank also ends up stealing deposits from it's own customers and killing these customers if those customers were of a certain political persuasion.

The man asks the bank repeatedly to stop. They tell him to pound sand.

The man asks the FBI to tell the bank to stop.

The FBI tes the man to pound sand.

After several years, the FBI tells the man that they are considering making the bank an official FBI black site from which they will be able to store deathrays in the bank vault and point them at the man and his family should the man continue to whine and moan.
J. Walter Weatherman
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Ags4DaWin said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

GAC06 said:

There it is. It's not that you can't make an argument, it's that everyone else couldn't possibly comprehend it because of the complexities and nuance and whatnot. Again. Troll harder.


Man robs bank, murdering tellers and customers along the way, because he wants to be rich.

Putin apologists "BuT ThE NuAnCe!!!"


Horrible analogy.

Man robs a MOB owned bank that the FBI knew was a mob owned bank and protected from federal investigation.

The bank funded everything from bioterrorism labs to funneling weapons to Mexican cartels and MS13.

The mob owned bank also ends up stealing deposits from it's own customers and killing these customers if those customers were of a certain political persuasion.

The man asks the bank repeatedly to stop. They tell him to pound sand.

The man asks the FBI to tell the bank to stop.

The FBI tes the man to pound sand.

After several years, the FBI tells the man that they are considering making the bank an official FBI black site from which they will be able to store deathrays in the bank vault and point them at the man and his family should the man continue to whine and moan.


Thanks for proving my point.

Man robbed bank, murdered the customers and tellers, then successfully convinced a ton of people that he robbed it for a bunch of other reasons other than he just wanted what was in the bank. Those people believed him because they didn't like who owned a bank four cities away that had said they'd help pay for extra security if needed.
Ags4DaWin
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Because "the bank"

Which is Ukraine in ur analogy was just sitting there, doing right for customers, innocently operating as designed, not harming anyone and not doing anything wrong in the first place.....

Lol.

We ALREADY know Putin's claim of US funded bioterrorism labs actually existed in Ukraine...the us panicked and scrambled to try to get them protected or the data out before Russia could capture them and all but admitted their existence....but yeah.....Putin was lying about everything else.

And bioterrorism is totally 100% okay.

As long as the US does it.

Because we have shown that we can be responsible with it.....ya know...the US had zero culpability in the COVID leak...we didn't fund that research at all or possibly have anything to do with its strategic release.
GAC06
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AG
Bioterrorism labs, y'all
benchmark
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YouBet said:

- Any other country not currently in NATO that is on Russia's border is on their own and is not remotely worth the resources to try and prevent Russian incursion.
Obviously not your 2022 red line because Finland (land border) and Sweden (maritime border) just made it in without many protests. LOL
Ag with kids
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Rongagin71 said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:


I think Lincoln was an a-hole for killing nearly a million people, destroying the economies of a dozen large states, "enrolling" massive numbers of black men into the Union army, and making racial tension a permanent aspect of American politics - but he did hold the election on time and would have left office if defeated.
FDR ran for a third term because WW2 was raging, but he did hold the election and would have left office if defeated.
Zelenski may not be able to hold an election, but he ought to try - or at least have the legislature vote.
What part of the the US was occupied by Axis troops in 1943-44? Oh yeah...none of it.

So...does Ukraine not hold these elections in the occupied terrority? If not, Russia will claim that's acknowledgement that it's not part of Ukraine.

But, how COULD they hold elections in those areas, which the Russians are occupying? Do you think the Russians would allow elections?

Ag with kids
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YouBet said:

To me it's as simple Ukraine wasn't in the club when this happened so they are SOL. I realize that's cynical and partially uncaring for the plight of Ukraine but it's also reality.

- NATO's lines were drawn and Putin was/is not going to cross those.

- Ukraine is corrupt and dysfunctional as hell and didn't qualify for NATO because it couldn't meet the standards for inclusion in the first place. And they still can't; NATO is now saying they will waive all standards and values for inclusion because Putin bad.

- And I think Putin is a bad actor but when you keep antagonizing the bad actor by continually trying to add Russian border countries to your own stable, then don't act surprised when the bad actor lashes out. This common sense cause and effect seems to be ignored by the powers that be.

- Ukraine is heavily tied to Russia through history and genetics.

- Any other country not currently in NATO that is on Russia's border is on their own and is not remotely worth the resources to try and prevent Russian incursion.

- Most importantly, I don't care about another countries sovereignty while we neglect our own. Ukraine is irrelevant while this continues.
And Putin's actions added Finland to the border countries in NATO. Plus Sweden right behind them.

Masterful chess work to stop NATO "advancement"...

It's almost as if those 2 countries saw this action and realized that not being in NATO is an invitation to invasion...
Ag with kids
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GAC06 said:

Bioterrorism labs, y'all
They were managed by the Nazis...
J. Walter Weatherman
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GAC06 said:

Bioterrorism labs, y'all


You'd think Putin would have just taken these labs out instead of sacrificing tens of thousands of troops trying to take over the entire country. Almost like "bioweapons" was a fake excuse made up by the Russian propaganda machine and the only reason he invaded is because he wanted to take over the entire country, ideally before they were able to join NATO and make future invasions impossible.
Ags4DaWin
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GAC06 said:

Bioterrorism labs, y'all
Tulsa gabbard seems to agree.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/Wmvbr6Amaq1dGGz7/?mibextid=w8EBqM

I don't agree with all of her political stances but she has undeniably been targeted because she opposes the globalist and alphabet agency agenda.

I love how the rabid war hawk posters on here stick to character assassination arguments.

I guess When your bank heist analogy fell apart you didn't have much else.
GAC06
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Quote:

I love how the rabid war hawk posters on here stick to character assassination arguments.


There might be some irony in this statement, good lord.

Also maybe scroll up and see who made that analogy.
YouBet
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benchmark said:

YouBet said:

- Any other country not currently in NATO that is on Russia's border is on their own and is not remotely worth the resources to try and prevent Russian incursion.
Obviously not your 2022 red line because Finland (land border) and Sweden (maritime border) just made it in without many protests. LOL


Obviously you were not aware those two countries effectively were already part of NATO through MOU's and other official agreements. Putin's actions simply put them over a finish line they were already standing on. Attacking them in 2022 would have triggered a NATO response.

LOL.
PlaneCrashGuy
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J. Walter Weatherman said:

GAC06 said:

There it is. It's not that you can't make an argument, it's that everyone else couldn't possibly comprehend it because of the complexities and nuance and whatnot. Again. Troll harder.


Man robs bank, murdering tellers and customers along the way, because he wants to be rich.

Putin apologists "BuT ThE NuAnCe!!!"


Is it more complicated than "Putin bad" in your opinion? Seems like a better starting point than you calling us names.
Old Army Ghost
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im with you on supporting putin

all my heros kill their political opponents and invade their neighbors

Old Army has gone to hell.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Old Army Ghost said:

im with you on supporting putin

all my heros kill their political opponents and invade their neighbors




There's no need for sarcasm, its a simple yes/no question about your understanding of the complexity of cause and effect. Would you like to actually answer it?
J. Walter Weatherman
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

GAC06 said:

There it is. It's not that you can't make an argument, it's that everyone else couldn't possibly comprehend it because of the complexities and nuance and whatnot. Again. Troll harder.


Man robs bank, murdering tellers and customers along the way, because he wants to be rich.

Putin apologists "BuT ThE NuAnCe!!!"


Is it more complicated than "Putin bad" in your opinion? Seems like a better starting point than you calling us names.


As the only person in charge of the Russian military and as a result the only person responsible for launching the invasion and the only person who can end the war today, no it's not more complicated than that. Every single death in the war on both sides is 100% the fault of Putin.
J. Walter Weatherman
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Ags4DaWin said:

GAC06 said:

Bioterrorism labs, y'all
Tulsa gabbard seems to agree.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/Wmvbr6Amaq1dGGz7/?mibextid=w8EBqM

I don't agree with all of her political stances but she has undeniably been targeted because she opposes the globalist and alphabet agency agenda.

I love how the rabid war hawk posters on here stick to character assassination arguments.

I guess When your bank heist analogy fell apart you didn't have much else.


"I don't agree with Tulsi except when she says things I agree with."

Can you point to any posts that would qualify as "rabid war mongering?" I'm assuming there are a bunch pushing for the US to send troops or similar posts in order for you accuse people of that.
Gilligan
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J. Walter Weatherman said:

GAC06 said:

Bioterrorism labs, y'all


You'd think Putin would have just taken these labs out instead of sacrificing tens of thousands of troops trying to take over the entire country. Almost like "bioweapons" was a fake excuse made up by the Russian propaganda machine and the only reason he invaded is because he wanted to take over the entire country, ideally before they were able to join NATO and make future invasions impossible.


…and for the money. Don't forget the main reason he attacked. Natural resources and land. Power and greed!
PlaneCrashGuy
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J. Walter Weatherman said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

GAC06 said:

There it is. It's not that you can't make an argument, it's that everyone else couldn't possibly comprehend it because of the complexities and nuance and whatnot. Again. Troll harder.


Man robs bank, murdering tellers and customers along the way, because he wants to be rich.

Putin apologists "BuT ThE NuAnCe!!!"


Is it more complicated than "Putin bad" in your opinion? Seems like a better starting point than you calling us names.


As the only person in charge of the Russian military and as a result the only person responsible for launching the invasion and the only person who can end the war today, no it's not more complicated than that. Every single death in the war on both sides is 100% the fault of Putin.


The problem with your position is it requires you to pretend Putin is immune to external influence. He is not. No one is.
nortex97
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Gilligan said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

GAC06 said:

Bioterrorism labs, y'all
You'd think Putin would have just taken these labs out instead of sacrificing tens of thousands of troops trying to take over the entire country. Almost like "bioweapons" was a fake excuse made up by the Russian propaganda machine and the only reason he invaded is because he wanted to take over the entire country, ideally before they were able to join NATO and make future invasions impossible.
…and for the money. Don't forget the main reason he attacked. Natural resources and land. Power and greed!
Money is a factor, in most wars, for both sides, I would agree with you. And it was Victoria Nuland herself who testified to congress about the bio labs, of course. None of us would suppose she lied about that, right? Land mass isn't really logical though as a 'want' imho for the Russians. Let's look at 'our' side, though for example; 'Nato and Ukraine more about Dollars than Democracy.'

Quote:

Mike Benz, director of the Foundation For Freedom Online, recently spoke with political commentator Dan Bongino about the ties between the U.S. intelligence community, the oil and gas industry, and Hunter Biden's involvement with Burisma in Ukraine. This discussion highlights how the United States uses alliances such as NATO to exert influence in Europe and confront adversaries such as Russia.

Russia has historically provided all of Europe's natural gas, which flowed predominantly through Ukraine, making the country a valuable transit point due to its extensive gas infrastructure.
And this existing infrastructure is key. Benz explained:
Quote:

If you can simply rewire the gas so that it no longer comes from Russia, it no longer comes from Ukraine's East, but it comes from Ukraine's West, for example, by piping in U.S. LNG or British LNG up through Poland, through the Baltic Sea, and then connecting it directly to Ukraine, you have the same gas architecture. You don't need to build a whole new web of energy infrastructure, which is very expensive to build and maintain. You simply reroute it, and now you have basically a trillion-dollar market that's captured by the West rather than by the East.
This is why Ukraine's largest national oil and gas company, Naftogaz, has spoken with Washington and American energy companies such as Exxon Mobil and Halliburton about investing in Ukraine. U.S. energy assistance and eventual NATO admission could help Ukraine become a natural gas powerhouse while also helping it win membership in the European Union.

But that's not the only place where money can be made. Of the $175 billion appropriated by Congress to date related to the conflict in Ukraine, billions are destined to be invested within the United States, which is set to "revitalize" the U.S. defense industrial base.

Expanding NATO membership also expands the markets for U.S. defense contractors, primarily due to its emphasis on standardization and interoperability, as member states are often required to purchase and depend on U.S.-designed weapons systems and military doctrine.
More at the link. Separately; is Washington trying to dump the proxy Russian war on the EU?
YouBet
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I've never taken part in the Ukrainian bio-lab "conspiracy theory", but now that I've read this do the people on here that scoff at it still think it's made up?

Quote:

"Ukraine has biological research facilities, which, in fact, we are now quite concerned...Russian forces may be seeking to gain control of." - Victoria Nuland at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing in response to Marco Rubio


Are y'all aware of this or just trying to memory hole it?
GAC06
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What we're laughing at is the people that read that then claim it as confirmation that there were "bioterrorism labs" in Ukraine.

About as ludicrous as the claim that Russia invaded to "denazify" Ukraine, yet we still have people parroting that on here too.
YouBet
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GAC06 said:

What we're laughing at is the people that read that then claim it as confirmation that there were "bioterrorism labs" in Ukraine.

About as ludicrous as the claim that Russia invaded to "denazify" Ukraine, yet we still have people parroting that on here too.


Considering we now have confirmation of Fauci and other US officials funding this type of stuff in China, I don't see why we should continue to laugh it off that it wouldn't happen in Ukraine where you could hide it even more effectively. Especially since Ukraine is/was one of the most corrupt countries on the planet.

I think the denazify reasoning is just Putin looking for cover although we've obviously seen examples of Ukrainian soldiers sporting Nazi regalia.
GAC06
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If covid had originated in Ukraine there'd be some smoke there
YouBet
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GAC06 said:

If covid had originated in Ukraine there'd be some smoke there


We were funding this type of stuff. That is fact. So it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that it was happening in Ukraine as well. To say it's ludicrous that we would be doing that is simply not logical.

We don't know if we were doing it in Ukraine but since we know we were doing it in China then it stands to reason that it's possible we could have been doing it in Ukraine as well. Especially considering the black hole of corruptness that everyone agreed Ukraine was before Russia invaded.
J. Walter Weatherman
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YouBet said:

I've never taken part in the Ukrainian bio-lab "conspiracy theory", but now that I've read this do the people on here that scoff at it still think it's made up?

Quote:

"Ukraine has biological research facilities, which, in fact, we are now quite concerned...Russian forces may be seeking to gain control of." - Victoria Nuland at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing in response to Marco Rubio


Are y'all aware of this or just trying to memory hole it?



No one is saying there are no biological research facilities in Ukraine. Like a lot of developed countries, I'm sure there are plenty, and even some that we are helping to fund. None of that in any way confirms there are bioweapons there. Just like the Nazi excuse, it's just another in a long line of fabrications that Putin and his army of digital trolls invented to justify taking over a country that never attacked them.
GAC06
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What I'm saying is ludicrous is accepting the Russian talking points uncritically. Were there labs in Ukraine? Apparently. Were they "bioterrorism" labs? There's zero evidence of that. Were they a reason or justification for Russia's invasion? Laughable.
PlaneCrashGuy
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GAC06 said:

What I'm saying is ludicrous is accepting the Russian talking points uncritically. Were there labs in Ukraine? Apparently. Were they "bioterrorism" labs? There's zero evidence of that. Were they a reason or justification for Russia's invasion? Laughable.


"Apparently" implies some level of doubt remains. To clarify, there is no longer doubt. The labs are there.
GAC06
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As in, it's apparent. Thanks for yet another useless post.
YouBet
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J. Walter Weatherman said:

YouBet said:

I've never taken part in the Ukrainian bio-lab "conspiracy theory", but now that I've read this do the people on here that scoff at it still think it's made up?

Quote:

"Ukraine has biological research facilities, which, in fact, we are now quite concerned...Russian forces may be seeking to gain control of." - Victoria Nuland at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing in response to Marco Rubio


Are y'all aware of this or just trying to memory hole it?



No one is saying there are no biological research facilities in Ukraine. Like a lot of developed countries, I'm sure there are plenty, and even some that we are helping to fund. None of that in any way confirms there are bioweapons there. Just like the Nazi excuse, it's just another in a long line of fabrications that Putin and his army of digital trolls invented to justify taking over a country that never attacked them.


I'm going to assume I can go back and find talking points that said there were no facilities there at all and when it was confirmed there were the talking points were shifted to "yes, there are facilities but they don't dabble in bioweapons".

Regardless, I'm also not saying there were bioweapons there. My only point is to dismiss the possibility as ludicrous...is ludicrous itself considering we already know we did it in China.

My gosh, there is no way we would do it in more than one location! How absurd!

Quote:

First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two for twice the price? Only this one can be kept secret. Controlled by Americans....


Again, I won't partake in the Nazi reasoning because I think that is largely Putin rhetoric.
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