Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

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wtmartinaggie
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AG
I appreciate that you hate the war, I think we all do.

By that logic, I would think the most appropriate long-term logic would be:

1) Understand where we are. There is a war in Europe and the clock can't be turned back to avoid it.

2) How this war ends sets the stage for the future. If this war ends unfavorably for us and our allies, we move forward into the future at a disadvantage when future conflicts arise. It doesn't matter your opinion of Ukraine, from a purely utilitarian state of mind they are a buffer state between geographically defensible points and the first line of contact. Geography defines that and history dictates this won't be the last time. The Poles know that all too well.

3) Abandoning Europe and losing your closest allies is a terrible idea. This conflict has gotten them to invest in their own defense which is immediately positive for us. It has firmed up our alliance in an environment where our adversaries were already tightly aligned. This conflict if properly managed will cause our enemies to lose any strategic societal/political advantage they may have had and most importantly galvanize our alliances against the oscillations of their political ideology as youths that only have known peace reach voting age.

The ideological war that manifested in the Cold War never stopped being fought. Wars like this typically do not end until one side surrenders unconditionally. This one is no different.

Winning isn't our primary objective because this war never ends here; or wherever it may have started if this conflict didn't escalate to where it is today. Creating a strategic advantage is what matters. For the first time in years we're actually doing a good job of leveraging a situation like this politically. Our improved management of our relationships in Eastern Europe and the Pacific are testaments to that fact.



nortex97
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You have some valid points I will attempt to address in the am. Briefly, though, I disagree about who we are supporting, turning our backs on, and what the price/cost to be paid is and will be.

japantiger
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S
What in this article is not accurate?



John Armfield
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wtmartinaggie said:

Why do y'all seem to be so excited about Ukraine losing? There's no scenario where them losing is in our best interests long-term.
care to explain, You UKE fan boys says Russia has a terrble army and is not a threat that on the other hand so omg we can't let Russia win it would harm the USA which is it? SmH
Ag with kids
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wtmartinaggie said:

I appreciate that you hate the war, I think we all do.

By that logic, I would think the most appropriate long-term logic would be:

1) Understand where we are. There is a war in Europe and the clock can't be turned back to avoid it.

2) How this war ends sets the stage for the future. If this war ends unfavorably for us and our allies, we move forward into the future at a disadvantage when future conflicts arise. It doesn't matter your opinion of Ukraine, from a purely utilitarian state of mind they are a buffer state between geographically defensible points and the first line of contact. Geography defines that and history dictates this won't be the last time. The Poles know that all too well.

3) Abandoning Europe and losing your closest allies is a terrible idea. This conflict has gotten them to invest in their own defense which is immediately positive for us. It has firmed up our alliance in an environment where our adversaries were already tightly aligned. This conflict if properly managed will cause our enemies to lose any strategic societal/political advantage they may have had and most importantly galvanize our alliances against the oscillations of their political ideology as youths that only have known peace reach voting age.

The ideological war that manifested in the Cold War never stopped being fought. Wars like this typically do not end until one side surrenders unconditionally. This one is no different.

Winning isn't our primary objective because this war never ends here; or wherever it may have started if this conflict didn't escalate to where it is today. Creating a strategic advantage is what matters. For the first time in years we're actually doing a good job of leveraging a situation like this politically. Our improved management of our relationships in Eastern Europe and the Pacific are testaments to that fact.




This is one of the best explanations I've heard for this conflict.
nortex97
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I'm going to briefly just respond to these 3 initial points;

Quote:

1) Understand where we are. There is a war in Europe and the clock can't be turned back to avoid it.

2) How this war ends sets the stage for the future. If this war ends unfavorably for us and our allies, we move forward into the future at a disadvantage when future conflicts arise. It doesn't matter your opinion of Ukraine, from a purely utilitarian state of mind they are a buffer state between geographically defensible points and the first line of contact. Geography defines that and history dictates this won't be the last time. The Poles know that all too well.

3) Abandoning Europe and losing your closest allies is a terrible idea. This conflict has gotten them to invest in their own defense which is immediately positive for us. It has firmed up our alliance in an environment where our adversaries were already tightly aligned. This conflict if properly managed will cause our enemies to lose any strategic societal/political advantage they may have had and most importantly galvanize our alliances against the oscillations of their political ideology as youths that only have known peace reach voting age.
There is a war in Europe, correct, right in Russia's back yard. It was provoked by a rush to push our proxy government installed in 2014 into Nato promptly, provoking the invasion, which is frankly not deniable as a matter of factual history.

Russia now, accepting the invasion/reality happened, cannot cede control of those parts it has conquered nor will they give up their critical need to have a port (Sevastopol).

It's debatable how the war can end. I believe, at this point, they will try to at least take Odessa first. This will make any remnant of Ukraine land-locked, but that is not a real big deal as long as exports/trade are facilitated.

From a utilitarian point of view, Ukraine as a buffer for Russia would then be great for us, as it would de-escalate the situation. I think actual elections should be required for whatever is left of Ukraine moving forward, and a covenant we won't push/allow them into Nato. Then, Russia can feel secure again. They aren't going to invade Hungary/Poland etc., that is just crazy talk. I don't care about their need for a buffer, but I do feel complicity in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands in this proxy war.

Talk of "abandoning" Europe is fascinating as though we have an eternal obligation to support them on the basis of WW2 militarily. This war has functionally devastated their economies via energy inflation (and the US played a key role again, including the Nordstream sabotage no one is allowed to conclude a public investigation into) among other impacts (including refugees).

If the US wants to play some sort of hegemonic role internationally it would do itself a favor to return to an investment strategy instead of a coup and war-based one as in Libya, Iraq, much of Africa and Ukraine, imho. The current CIA and State efforts have been horribly unsuccessful at long term furthering American interests.

Our largest actual enemy globally is in many ways a practitioner of influence and trade manipulation/strategic growth in a much more amicable and successful way;



But make no mistake, they are our actual enemy, and I think the Biden familia among many other politicians (mostly but not all Democrats) have been on their payroll/compromised for a long time too. Our southern border, fentanyl war (a revenge for the opium wars largely), and a ton of other impacts in the US are consequential to their control of our own government functions. Everything we are doing in Ukraine and to Europe there is contra our ability to counter China, near and long term. Meanwhile;



Meanwhile, oh by the way, the war is a horrible failure tactically/strategically for the poor Ukrainians who have to stage PR ops to keep some interest/cheerleading for their cause going;





It's a false dichotomy/connection to claim we have to support Ukraine so that…the Europeans keep investing more in their own defenses. And frankly, our history of abandoning one-time allies is pretty lengthy now, that's not going to change regardless of how/when Zelensky is discarded. He/Kiev is a horrible/corrupt regime elected on false pretenses that also morally deserves to fall. I don't say that out of hatred just from observing their lies/treatment of their people (and our dollars) over the past few years. We can support the Baltic countries and Hungary/Poland/Czech's better without the absurd waste going on and thru Kiev.

And again, from a pragmatic perspective Biden's war has been one big backfire; when something is an utter failure, it's best to stop doing it.



Quote:

BIDEN'S BIG BACKFIRE

Last week I gave a talk at the American Moment conference in D.C. in which I compared Biden's claims at the beginning of the Ukraine War to how it has actually turned out.

I explained how Biden's policy has backfired in 4 key areas:

1) ECONOMIC

At the beginning of the war, Biden claimed that sanctions would "crush" the Russian economy, forcing Russia out of the war and perhaps even precipitating regime change.

In fact, the dislocation to Russia's economy was short-lived. By 2023, the Russian economy was outperforming the G7. Meanwhile, the real victim of sanctions was Europe, especially the German economy, which relied on cheap Russian gas to power its exports. As a result, the war is destabilizing governments throughout Europe just not Putin's.

Instead of hurting the Russian economy, Biden's economic war has hurt our European allies. This is the first big backfire.

2) MILITARY

At the outset of the war, the Biden administration declared that its objective was to "weaken" Russia militarily so it couldn't wage regional war again.

The media breathlessly amplified claims of Russian weakness and impending collapse, only to discover the reality of massive Russian industrial war production. Russian factories and forges are now ramped up and producing more artillery shells, drones, tanks, and other weapons of war.

In fact, it's the West that can't keep up, with its atrophied defense industrial base. America's own stockpiles, most notably of artillery shells and air defense, have been depleted much faster than war planners anticipated.

The size of the Russian military has grown too, thanks to large numbers of enlistments and a casualty rate that's decreasing over time. The Russian army has become more battle-tested and battle-hardened, learning how to defeat western weapons.

Biden's proxy war was supposed to weaken Russia's military but instead has made it stronger and more formidable, while depleting America's own stockpiles. This is the second big backfire.

3) DIPLOMATIC / GEOPOLITICAL

At the outset, Biden claimed that the war would show Western unity, resolve and leadership while isolating Putin.

In fact, the rest of the world has not come along for the ride. The BRICS countries and much of the Global South reject the U.S. view of the war and refuse to sanction or condemn Russia. On a recent visit to the Middle East, Putin was greeted like a conquering hero in UAE and Saudi Arabia.

Sanctions have only made BRICS more popular; it has added 5 new members, with a long wait list of countries seeking to join. These countries see BRICS as a defender of their economic sovereignty and a potential shield against a trigger-happy U.S. sanctions regime.

Even liberal interventionists are now starting to notice. Fiona Hill declared that Pax Americana is over. And EU foreign minister Josep Borrell declared that the era of Western dominance has definitively ended.

Rather than strengthening U.S. global leadership, the war has catalyzed resistance to it. This is Biden's third big backfire.

4) HUMANITARIAN

At the outset of the war, Biden claimed that his policy would "aid the Ukrainian people" and "help ease their suffering."

But Ukraine has suffered a vast number of casualties, and its population has further declined greatly as a result of refugees (mainly women and children) fleeing the country. According to UN/World Bank, the population of Ukraine-controlled territory has decreased from 44 million to 28 million. Over 10 million of the remainder are reported to be pensioners. This is a recipe for demographic collapse.

So instead of helping Ukraine, Biden's proxy war policy has likely doomed it. This is backfire number four.

For more detail and all the receipts on Biden's Big Backfire, check out the full speech from American Moment below.
War, which is government sanctioned mass murder at scale, especially a proxy one, should not be furthered/extended just out of a sense of inertia or hope, but studied, considered, and only supported if compelling, urgent interests and goals are in fact being won. This fails on every metric conceivable for American aid to Ukraine in their war with Russia, imho.

Forever war!
Teslag
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Quote:

There is a war in Europe, correct, right in Russia's back yard. It was provoked by a rush to push our proxy government installed in 2014 into Nato promptly, provoking the invasion, which is frankly not deniable as a matter of factual history.



Completely and totally false. It's a pure land grab and nothing more. And once again you assign zero blame whatsoever to Putin and ONLY blame the west.


It's beyond transparent at this point.
nortex97
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Putin discusses peace negotiation terms;

Quote:

"Are we ready for negotiations? Yes, we are ready, but we are only ready for serious negotiations, not those based on wish-lists conjured up after the use of psychotropic drugs, but based on ... the realities," he explained.

It would be "ridiculous" to negotiate now "just because they [Ukraine] are running out of ammunition," Putin noted, apparently referring to waning support from the US, Kiev's main backer, as a $60 billion American aid package to Ukraine has stalled in the US Congress.
Quote:

We are, however, ready for a serious conversation, and we want to resolve all conflicts, especially this conflict, through peaceful means. But we must clearly understand that this is not a pause that the enemy wants to take for rearmament, but this is a serious conversation with security guarantees for the Russian Federation.
Former Ukrainian president Pytor Poroshenko and ex-German Chancellor Angela Merkel have both admitted that the Minsk Agreements brokered with Moscow in 2014 were specifically used to allow Kiev re-arm its forces in the aftermath of the warfare triggered by the Maidan coup, which eventually saw Crimea join the Russian Federation.

In a conversation with American journalist Tucker Carlson last month, Putin reiterated that Russia remained ready for talks with Ukraine, but in order for them to take place, President Vladimir Zelensky must also revoke his decree that forbids him from negotiating with Moscow.












nortex97
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Hungary summons American (*Biden)ambassador (but we of course would never turn our backs on an ally in Europe, most especially one in Nato):

Quote:

Hungary summoned its ambassador from the United States on Tuesday over what Budapest termed as "lies" from President Biden about Prime Minister Viktor Orbn supposedly seeking to become a dictator.
A diplomatic rift broke out between Budapest and Washington this week following comments from President Joe Biden, who claimed during a campaign stop in Philadelphia on Friday that Prime Minister Orbn "stated flatly he doesn't think democracy works and is looking for dictatorship".

Responding to the incendiary rhetoric, Hungarian Foreign Affairs Minister Pter Szijjrt said on Tuesday that the Orbn government has summoned the U.S. ambassador for an explanation for Biden's comments.
"We are not obliged to take lies from anyone, even if that person is the President of the United States," Minister Szijjrt said on Tuesday afternoon. "Since such a lie has been said in connection with the Hungarian prime minister, we summoned the ambassador of the United States to the ministry, who was here today."

Szijjrt went on to say that Biden's comments made it more difficult to build Hungarian-U.S. relations, as it was "an offence not to the government, but to the country".

When pressed by Fox News reporter Jacqui Rogers during a White House briefing on Tuesday as to whether it was the official stance of the United States that Hungary, a NATO ally, was a dictatorship, National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan refused to confirm whether or not the president's comments reflect the government's official stance, referring the question to the Biden re-election campaign.

"Our position is that Hungary has engaged in an assault on Democratic institutions and that remains a source of grave concern to us," Sullivan said.
Hmm…polish farmers blocking the border again and:

Quote:

Quote:

The European Parliament did not agree on the extension of the duty-free import regime for agricultural products from Ukraine to the EU, - EP website

The document with amendments will be sent for further revision to the International Trade Committee.

https://t.me/nabludatels/40402
Quote:

A very bad signal for Ukrainian farmers and businesses. In fact, our Western partners are cheating us.

If the EU cancels all "freedoms" for our products, then in a year we will have 80% of bankruptcies. There is one advantage for Western corporations - they will buy everything from the Ukrainians who are fighting for pennies.

Nowadays there is a tendency that Ukraine is given money only for war, and cuts for the rest. This means that the West benefits from Ukraine as just a "kamikaze country"; no one is interested in Ukraine as a prosperous country. These were fairy tales for fools.

We have been writing for a long time that Ukraine lives while the West still pays the bills, and in return Kyiv does the "dirty work." As soon as this need goes away or ceases to provide good efficiency, Ukraine will be merged.

In this situation, the country has no future.

Shenanigans about EU aid, as usual;



I see more and more headlines about Trump and Russia/Putin being fired up again for the 'Muh, Russia' crowd to devour ignorantly;



PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag
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I guess it's a good thing they'll be getting assistance
J. Walter Weatherman
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PlaneCrashGuy said:




Was there a quote or link to his full testimony included in that tweet where he says that? Here's the summary I found after a quick search:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/us/politics/intelligence-officials-ukraine-aid.html

Quote:

With additional funding, Ukraine should be able to regain the "offensive initiative" by the end of this year or early 2025, Mr. Burns said. Such a shift, he added, would put Ukraine in a stronger position to negotiate with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia.



Seems like forcing Russia to negotiate would be something the supposedly anti-war "other perspectives" would support.
PlaneCrashGuy
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J. Walter Weatherman said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:




Was there a quote or link to his full testimony included in that tweet where he says that? Here's the summary I found after a quick search:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/us/politics/intelligence-officials-ukraine-aid.html

Quote:

With additional funding, Ukraine should be able to regain the "offensive initiative" by the end of this year or early 2025, Mr. Burns said. Such a shift, he added, would put Ukraine in a stronger position to negotiate with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia.



Seems like forcing Russia to negotiate would be something the supposedly anti-war "other perspectives" would support.


Quote:

Senior intelligence officials warned on Monday that without additional American aid, Ukraine faced the prospect of continued battlefield losses as Russia relies on a network of critical arms suppliers and drastically increases its supply of technology from China.


Has there been an update on the aid?
PlaneCrashGuy
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The 1st casualty in every war is the truth.
nortex97
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There's no reason to take anything put out by their shills or government seriously. 31K KIA. Big strikes. "Counter-offensive." A-50 shoot downs. Russians desperate/using shovels etc.

Apparently Russia has pretty good surveillance now based on the helicopters hit on the ground 50 miles behind the line yesterday.

Both sides put out so much propaganda it is tough to take any of it real seriously. Now we have war supporters somehow citing a claim that Ukraine just can't 're-assert the offensive' or something unless aid is passed 'by the end of the year.' I thought they faced collapse by the end of December 2023 unless the evil republicans sent them more bullets and money.

It's all just lies on top of lies.
wtmartinaggie
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Why do you feel the need to be so condescending? It's really unnecessary.

To answer your question, those two things are independent of each other. Russia winning can be bad for our interests and their army can also be underperforming.
japantiger
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Teslag said:

Quote:

There is a war in Europe, correct, right in Russia's back yard. It was provoked by a rush to push our proxy government installed in 2014 into Nato promptly, provoking the invasion, which is frankly not deniable as a matter of factual history.



Completely and totally false. It's a pure land grab and nothing more. And once again you assign zero blame whatsoever to Putin and ONLY blame the west.


It's beyond transparent at this point.
It doesn't matter which one of you is right or wrong. Was our gov't involved in starting this war. Absolutely. Is it a Putin land grab. Assuredly. Now that that is out of the way:

  • It's not our war and there are zero US interests at stake with Ukraine.
  • They are not an ally.
  • We had 70 years since the end of the WW2 and 32 years since the end of the Cold War to find common interests with them.
  • We did not for a reason....there are none economically or culturally.
  • They are not a "democracy" (he says mimicking Kamala Harris as she says everything the Biden admin disagrees with is a threat to our Democracy)
  • They are a corrupt Kleptocracy. I have personal, on the ground experience with this.
  • They've banned opposition political parties
  • They've banned churches
  • They've taken control of all media
  • They've arrested political opposition
  • They've cancelled elections

Putin is a bad guy....there are a lot of bad guys in the world. Frankly I'm not too keen on most our government and institutions right now. Should we fight them all?

Negotiate a peace. Ukraine is a Russian vassal state. Life is hard. Why people want to keep pouring money into this mess is beyond me. Every time we get involved in one of these things Americans wind up dying. We need to get out before it happens (my son just returned from a 10 month deployment of supplying and training the Ukes).
nortex97
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AG
All correct. But it is worth noting some of the history in some more specifics;

Quote:

David Sacks Rips Biden's War In Ukraine: "Putin Ordered the Invasion, But Biden Sabotaged the Peace"

"Once Biden sabotaged the peace deal, he became a co-owner of this war."

"There was, in fact, a peace agreement that was on the verge of being negotiated in Istanbul, and that draft agreement was signed by the parties in early April 2022, but as we now know through revelations over the last two years, that deal was blocked by the West. And many people have said this. Naftali Bennet and the Turkish foreign minister said it. And Ukrainian Pravda, which is a pro-Ukraine publication, let the cat out of the bag that Boris Johnson had flown into Kyiv to tell Zelensky that we don't want to make a deal with Putin. We want to pressure Putin.

So this story now has become undeniable. That's why the Wall Street Journal just did a piece talking about how there was a peace deal available in Istanbul, but they called the terms punishing. So, they've had to acknowledge that we did deliberately pass up the opportunity for peace, but they tried to say that the terms weren't good enough. In fact, the terms were favorable and certainly more favorable than anything Ukraine is going to get now. And it would have avoided all of the destruction of this war.

So even if you believe that the United States did nothing to provoke this war, and Biden specifically, even if you believe that it was okay for us to back a coup in Kyiv in 2014, even if you believe that the Russians should have been just fine with the CIA setting up a dozen secret bases on their border inside Ukraine, having a network of bio labs, and with the United States pushing relentlessly to try and bring Ukraine into NATO, even if you think that all of those things weren't a provocation. I still think that once Biden sabotaged the peace deal that was available there, he became a co-owner of this war.

So like I say, it takes two to tango. Putin may have ordered the invasion, but Biden sabotaged the peace. And what I want to talk about is Biden's policy here of deliberately perpetuating this proxy war against Russia. Again, this was not something that fell into his lap as sort of an accidental thing that he didn't have anything to do with. This was a deliberate policy choice."
We shouldn't take Biden's word (nor of course saint Zelensky's) on a single damn thing, of course, nor Putin's, but it is a proxy war between the two, plain and simple, and culpability for it in 2024 ongoing (and 'hoping' it goes on through the year into 2025) is not a logical/sound position.

Teslag
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AG
What peace deal?
nortex97
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Teslag said:

What peace deal?
The one he was talking about. Look it up on your own, or disbelieve it, or snark/cry about my sources some more. Whatever.
Teslag
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AG
That's because there was no peace deal.
J. Walter Weatherman
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Teslag said:

That's because there was no peace deal.


I think he's referring to the one Ukraine rejected because they knew Russia was full of **** and would just invade again. But I guess if a random tech billionaire with zero foreign policy experience read it on the internet it must be true.
nortex97
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J. Walter Weatherman said:

Teslag said:

That's because there was no peace deal.


I think he's referring to the one Ukraine rejected because they knew Russia was full of **** and would just invade again. But I guess if a random tech billionaire with zero foreign policy experience read it on the internet it must be true.
Are you referring to the tech billionaire Teslag worships who Xiden, proxy war commander, wants to run out of business, or the one I linked most recently in this thread with a huge audience who discusses foreign policy soberly and without bias? Thx.

J. Walter Weatherman
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nortex97 said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

Teslag said:

That's because there was no peace deal.


I think he's referring to the one Ukraine rejected because they knew Russia was full of **** and would just invade again. But I guess if a random tech billionaire with zero foreign policy experience read it on the internet it must be true.
Are you referring to the tech billionaire Teslag worships who Xiden, proxy war commander, wants to run out of business, or the one I linked most recently in this thread with a huge audience who discusses foreign policy soberly and without bias? Thx.




"Without bias"



PlaneCrashGuy
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AG


Its worth keeping in mind that "By the end of the year" is too little too late for Ukes being sent into the Russian meat grinder, today.
wtmartinaggie
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I appreciate the perspective; we just disagree on the long-term strategic implications. I'm admittedly pessimistic about humanity and see very few outcomes that do not end in conflict. History continues to reinforce the fact that people are incapable of competing for scarce resources or settle ideological differences without violence. I hope one day we can overcome that, but the only way to insure peace today is to press the advantage, carry a big stick, and keep our enemies fearful that unconditional surrender or complete destruction are the only outcomes for them if they start conflict with us.

Avoiding the conflict doesn't change the posture of Russia or China. Whether it was Taiwan, Ukraine, Georgia, Northen India, or any other buffer region this East v. West conflict was inevitable. Could it have been put off for a while? Perhaps. Would it change the long-term outcome? I find it highly unlikely.

China is undeniably the biggest threat. That we agree on. My hope was always that conflict would erupt over Lake Baikal or in New Manchuria before Europe effectively dividing our adversaries and staving off a bi-polar global conflict for another 100 years, but that was always a long shot. We've really gotten it together over China recently. The lynchpin now appears to be which side India and the Global South fall to over time; and we are clearly still playing second best in that race.

I appreciate the worry about home versus worry abroad ideals. Letting our adversaries gain momentum globally will hurt us when the inevitable conflict arises. That, I believe, is the long-term perspective of the "empire" camp. The "populist home front" will create another occupied France circa the early 1940's if we leave the world to its' own devices. This time, will we be able to outproduce our enemies or create a landscape altering weapon to turn the tide if that happens?
PlaneCrashGuy
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The big stick method is not working, because they're making 3x as many big sticks as us. (CNN)
aggiehawg
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AG
Anyone else seeing this? Did Macron say that?

japantiger
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S
It appears he did.
****ing madman
nortex97
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AG
aggiehawg said:

Anyone else seeing this? Did Macron say that?


Respectfully, that is a pure russian propaganda take on what he actually said.

Macron was saying a typically French thing, basically claiming to be open to persuasion about sending some un-named group of French soldiers there, if some unspecific level of defeat were realized by Ukraine.

Basically, trash talking, imho. It's what the French are, after all, best at. They have practically zero deployable military capability that could impact anything in Ukraine/Russia, today much less so than when Napoleon lived.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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Quote:

People who are against French troops being sent to Ukraine are against our sovereignity and are in favor of defeat"
If you're not with us, you're against us .... but in French.

Nice.
John Armfield
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wtmartinaggie said:

Why do you feel the need to be so condescending? It's really unnecessary.

To answer your question, those two things are independent of each other. Russia winning can be bad for our interests and their army can also be underperforming.
either Russia is an existential threat or not saying their army is **** but then on the other hand saying they pose a threat Western Europe and the USA is contradictory

hth
PlaneCrashGuy
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AG
Lotta tough talk for a fella with a french accent
TheCougarHunter
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nortex97 said:

aggiehawg said:

Anyone else seeing this? Did Macron say that?


Respectfully, that is a pure russian propaganda take on what he actually said.

Macron was saying a typically French thing, basically claiming to be open to persuasion about sending some un-named group of French soldiers there, if some unspecific level of defeat were realized by Ukraine.

Basically, trash talking, imho. It's what the French are, after all, best at. They have practically zero deployable military capability that could impact anything in Ukraine/Russia, today much less so than when Napoleon lived.


This is just not true
PlaneCrashGuy
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AG
TheCougarHunter said:

nortex97 said:

aggiehawg said:

Anyone else seeing this? Did Macron say that?


Respectfully, that is a pure russian propaganda take on what he actually said.

Macron was saying a typically French thing, basically claiming to be open to persuasion about sending some un-named group of French soldiers there, if some unspecific level of defeat were realized by Ukraine.

Basically, trash talking, imho. It's what the French are, after all, best at. They have practically zero deployable military capability that could impact anything in Ukraine/Russia, today much less so than when Napoleon lived.


This is just not true


What are you basing this on?
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